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Goodbye Start button?


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#21 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1734

Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:30 PM

 When I want something I just type it instead of seraching the start button tree. I find it more convient smile.png


That's a 35 year step backwards in user interface, though.

 

Yes... navigating a tree of folders to find what you want is so much more modern...


Edited by tstrimple, 24 March 2013 - 03:30 PM.


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#22 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1734

Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:43 PM

I find people break down into two camps on Windows 8. Those what have not used it who bitch and moan about a missing little orb and archaic tree view of your programs. And those that have used it and realize it's a complete non-issue, and is a much more efficient way to interact with your programs. 

 

I understand that there is fear about Windows completely becoming a walled garden, but those are unfounded. Look at the history of Microsoft and the troubles they have taken to maintain backwards compatibility in applications. As others have said, removing the ability to run desktop apps completely would be suicide for the operating system.

 

What the app store does, and does well is give people a safe and easy place to install applications without having to try to trust random 3rd party installers and payment systems. No more toolbars installed automatically for you from every 3rd party software company (I'm looking at you Oracle) who is trying to make some money at your expense. 



#23 mhagain   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8278

Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:18 PM

Regarding the "walled garden", and getting back to the business market, this is one thing that's definitely not going to happen.  Microsoft screwed up recently enough with Vista, providing an OS on which so much third-party software just did not work that nobody, outside of a pure Microsoft-house that's willing to upgrade everything to the latest version, was willing to take up.  Disconnecting release dates of the server version from the client version also meant that there was an extended period during which Domain Admins couldn't actually manage the new features of the client OS.

 

It seems clear that there are strong forces in Microsoft who want to "do a Vista" again, but it's also clear that there's recognition there that it didn't work last time round (Windows 7 and the recoupling of release dates were reactions to that and they both worked very well).  The business desktop will never be a "walled garden" because it's an obstacle to upgrading - what business is going to upgrade to the latest version of Windows if they have to throw out all of their legacy and third-party programs and start over?  Answer: none.  It happened with Vista and it will happen again, and Microsoft know this now.

 

So from that perspective all talk of a "walled garden" is nothing more than FUD, and it becomes necessary to question the motives of anyone who keeps on bringing it up.


It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.


#24 noatom   Members   -  Reputation: 785

Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

Windows blue has been leaked,incase you want to know,it's pretty much the same thing as 8



#25 mhagain   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8278

Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:51 PM

Windows blue has been leaked,incase you want to know,it's pretty much the same thing as 8

 

Expected at this point in time.  It's still a good while from release and is obviously being built on the 8 codebase, so these early versions shouldn't be much different.


It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.


#26 Khatharr   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3039

Posted 24 March 2013 - 09:39 PM

I likes the idea of continually improving the OS until it comes full circle and ends up being a glorified shell prompt.


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#27 Xanather   Members   -  Reputation: 712

Posted 24 March 2013 - 09:40 PM

a) it can fit many more default programs/shortcuts

I can actually fit more of them shortcuts on the desktop itself, the start menu adds to organizing other programs that you don't want showing as a "desktop shortcut".

b) it can display more search results

Most of the time I only need to type in a few letters and the program I want is there, I don't think more search results is a benefit really... at the same time the whole screen hasn't been covered up.

c) it will allow you to allot desktop space to "start menu" space by simply defining where your shortcuts lie

I don't understand why its so good to get off desktop shortcut icons.

When I want something I just type it instead of seraching the start button tree. I find it more convient smile.png

You can actually do this with windows 7, i do it all the time, also in the exact same way. Press the win key and start typing :P



#28 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4692

Posted 24 March 2013 - 09:43 PM

My whole issue with Win8 for Desktops is this: Why would I use it instead of Win7? It just seems that Win8 came out 3 to 5 years earlier than it should. I can see why you'd want it for a tablet or even a phone. But for the desktop, it's a meh.
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#29 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1734

Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:40 PM

My whole issue with Win8 for Desktops is this: Why would I use it instead of Win7? It just seems that Win8 came out 3 to 5 years earlier than it should. I can see why you'd want it for a tablet or even a phone. But for the desktop, it's a meh.

 

Sounds like all you know about Windows 8 is the start menu / metro application FUD. How about:

 

But please, lets keep pretending like all they did was remove the start button.



#30 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4692

Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:57 PM

I'm not saying that they didn't improve things. But my life with Win7 is not horrible and in need of repair. It does all the things I want and need it to do and it does it well. And quite frankly if your OS needs two interfaces, then you're doing something wrong. Regardless of how many improvements you have.

And when did I mention anything about Start Menu? That's your hangup, not mine.
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#31 noatom   Members   -  Reputation: 785

Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:26 PM

From a desktop user perspective,there is no reason to change to 8 at all.



#32 mhagain   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8278

Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:07 AM

From a desktop user perspective,there is no reason to change to 8 at all.

 

Your whole post reads like "I don't need it so therefore nobody needs it", you know...


It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.


#33 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1734

Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:46 AM

I'm not saying that they didn't improve things. But my life with Win7 is not horrible and in need of repair. It does all the things I want and need it to do and it does it well. And quite frankly if your OS needs two interfaces, then you're doing something wrong. Regardless of how many improvements you have.

And when did I mention anything about Start Menu? That's your hangup, not mine.

It definitely doesn't need two interfaces. I almost never see a metro app on my laptop and on the tablet it's metro almost exclusively. Both exist, but it's up to you if / when you use them.



#34 blueshogun96   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1095

Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:53 AM

I don't want to sound stubborn, but I think I'm going to stay with Win7 for as long as a possibly can until new games and applications clease to function unless Microsoft makes non-awkward desktop OS before that happens.

They seem to have a policy of alternating between making an annoying OS and a follow-up more stable version of it, so I'm down with this plan. According to the pattern, Win9 has to be decent laugh.png

95 -> 98 -> Me -> XP -> Vista -> 7 -> 8 ...

What about Win2k?  I liked it.

 

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#35 noatom   Members   -  Reputation: 785

Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:58 AM

However the good part is: Microsoft is planning to make an os for all devices,that means to put an  end to having a different win version for tablets/pcs/phones.They already managed to do it for tablets and pcs,phones are next.I like that.



#36 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 31822

Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:06 AM

What about Win2k?  I liked it.

That's a different branch of the family tree wink.png

...NT4 -> 2k...

 

Technically, 2k is actually more of a real predecessor of XP than ME is. The 98/Me branch and the NT/2k branch had serious compatability issues with each other. 2k made a lot of progress in becoming compatable with the 98/ME branch, and then win XP finished the job. XP is actually a continuation of the NT branch... but if I drew my timeline that way, then my pattern wouldn't work tongue.png



#37 blueshogun96   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1095

Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:22 AM

Heh, yeah, you're right.  I forgot about NT4, etc.

 

The only version of Windows I hated was Vista.  It took a fair bit of fighting, but I got ME to work without issues before.  Still more trouble than it was worth.

 

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#38 benryves   Members   -  Reputation: 1998

Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:43 AM


What about Win2k?  I liked it.

That's a different branch of the family tree wink.png
...NT4 -> 2k...
 
Technically, 2k is actually more of a real predecessor of XP than ME is. The 98/Me branch and the NT/2k branch had serious compatability issues with each other. 2k made a lot of progress in becoming compatable with the 98/ME branch, and then win XP finished the job. XP is actually a continuation of the NT branch... but if I drew my timeline that way, then my pattern wouldn't work tongue.png


I don't think the pattern really works in any case, despite its constant parroting - 95 was decent but 98 was awful (98SE made it somewhat usable) and XP wasn't much good until it had a couple of service packs under its belt. Vista was fine as long as your hardware manufacturers had sorted their drivers out, which they had by the time 7 came out which is probably 7 has a better reputation than Vista despite it removing or breaking a lot of good features. Sadly those have been continued into Windows 8, but at least Windows 8 adds a lot of other good stuff to help you forget (and you can install 3rd party software like 7+ Taskbar Tweaker to fix some of the more annoying changes).
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#39 wintertime   Members   -  Reputation: 1877

Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:03 AM

What worries me more than the missing start button or ugly UI is the DRM-BIOS that gets pushed onto people. If you buy a computer it should be your choice whats running on it and not of some company holding the key.



#40 mdwh   Members   -  Reputation: 901

Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:06 AM

Isn't Windows "blue" basically Service Pack 1?

I heard somewhere that windows 9/blue wont have the start button either. I personally see this as a disappointment, the start screen is designed for touch screens not desktops.

No it is not! smile.png

Seriously, I don't understand this. MS change the start menu in every version of Windows. There are advantages and disadvantages to each version - personally I hated XP's one the most, and like Windows 8's the best. (And on that note, I find it curious that people seem to compare the classic "tree" version to Windows 8, ignoring that we haven't had that version since Windows Me/2000.)

Fair enough if people prefer the older version, but what is it that makes it "designed for touch screens"?

That it takes up the full screen? Well personally I'd rather that the full use of my 17" be used, rather than a menu that only takes up a postage-stamp size. Also remember that the "classic" Win 9x/2000 menu *was* designed to take up the full screen, as you opened up all the sub-menus. But from XP onwards, we were left with this thing that only used a small amount of space.

The start menu is now launched by a hotspot rather than a button, which is a method that won't even work with touch. Surely "designed for touchscreen" would mean making the button bigger, not smaller? I don't even know how this works on touchscreens, possibly some kind of swipe gesture(?), but that's not how it's done with a mouse.

Some things on the start menu are now done with a right mouse click - how is that possible on a touchscreen?

Yes, they took away the graphical button and did it via a hotspot, but personally I think it's good that MS have finally made use of Fitts's Law.

Still, if you don't like it, there are lots of free utilities to change it back to Windows 7 style. Or Windows XP, or Windows 9x classic style, whichever you like best. I think this would be a poor reason to stay away, and miss out of the benefits (and yes, there are improvements that have nothing to do with touchscreens).

Yeah I hated it at first when 7/vista redesigned the start menu... but now the only way I use it is by typing in that search box.

Me too - and again, the fact that it works so well with keyboards makes the "only for touchscreens" complaint rather odd. Though I think Windows 8 now makes other ways more accessible:

* I like that the start screen can now be customised with your common applications, so clicking on those is much easier. Really this is what the people commonly did with the desktop (and again, nothing to do with touchscreens), but it's done much better. Creating and deleting shortcuts was a pain, but now it's easy to "pin" anything to the start screen. It can also scroll for more space, and it means the desktop can remain uncluttered. (True, one could fit more icons on the desktop at once, but if people would rather clutter up their desktop, they can still do that anyway.)

* And if you end up having to scroll through the list of applications, I'd say icons plus text, with a fullscreen, is better than scrolling through a small window of only text.

That's a 35 year step backwards in user interface, though.

"Windows 8 is horrible, it only works with these new touchscreen devices, not my keyboard"
"But you can launch things quickly with a keyboard"
"I don't want to use an old fashioned keyboard method!"
...

To you, and others criticising: what method do you currently use to launch an application?

the awkward way of closing anything that has opened up in that Metro interface, the lack of a close button seems really annoying

Yes, I think this is the single area where they have messed up, and made something for touchscreen, without a version that works well on a mouse or keyboard (actually I forget off hand - does alt+F4 work?) So I see this as more of a single issue, than the whole thing being designed for touchscreens only, and hopefully they will fix this up. For every other change though, I can either see it being something one might do even without touchscreens existing, or it's something that simply doesn't make sense on a touchscreen (e.g., right clicking, hotspots from mouse movement).

---

I see the later discussion has moved to "the improvements aren't that big" - well, you could say that of XP vs Vista, or Vista vs 7, or 2000 vs XP. Or each new version of OS X. Or a new release of Android. When software is mature, and it's good enough for you, then it's always going to be the case that there's less incentive to upgrade. I think that's a compliment of the OS being good - compared to the days when I was desperate to upgrade from 98 to 2000, because 98 was so bad and unstable... This is back-pedalling - if all people are saying is "Windows 8 has plenty of new features, but I don't really need them myself, and Windows 7 is good enough for my needs", that's not a criticism at all really.

As for the walled garden, I think that is a concern, and MS should be criticised. But Apple should be too - I don't think "desktop" vs "mobile" makes a different (my laptop is mobile too, and doesn't go on my desk - but it seems I see people using tablets more commonly on a desktop, as they don't work well on a lap...). Nor are IOS devices like consoles - no other smartphone platform (well, except Windows Phone?) was or is locked down, they have followed and still follow the same model as computer platforms. Same with tablets ("tablet" has always been ill-defined, but whether we mean a touchscreen PC, an oversized smartphone, a media player running an OS, or something that's basically a smartphone without the phone, all of these again have been open platforms whether it's Windows, Android, Maemo or whatever else).

Edited by mdwh, 25 March 2013 - 07:49 AM.

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