http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/n-korea-threatens-nuclear-retaliation-against-japan
By this point it is fairly obvious.

Firstly, their moves are very calculated. They announce what they want to draw our attention. Unfortunately, that is a fairly weak tactic because even I who made all these topics can easily realize that if they were planning anything seriously they would not be announcing their attacks. I almost replied here to say that I no longer believe war was coming, because it is fairly obvious that if you actually plan to win a war you don’t tell everyone about it and you don’t tell everyone your missiles are fueled and aimed.

But it’s not that they want to feign threats. They do want war (I honestly can’t understand why, as a psychologist myself, but they do), but this part is just a diversion. Misguidedly they are hoping that with our attention drawn to the 2 east missiles they have gassed up we will miss the X missiles they have moved to the west and near the border.

It was a nice idea, but the world is not so stupid.

Next they say that any shooting-down of missiles by Japan will result in war.
Their next plan is to launch a missile over Japan, which will of course be shot down.

In this way they can declare themselves as victims or otherwise try to justify their offensive. They know at least enough to realize that they can’t take a pre-emptive approach, even though they have threatened one. They will have no backers in that scenario, not even from their secret backers in the middle east. War has to be justified.

From their point of view, living under nuclear threat with no countermeasure for 50 years is provocation, and their research is just an obvious reaction to it.

Who ever threatened them with nukes?
This is where I just stop following your arguments.
#1: America has no interest in North Korea. Not even as a villain. Except now when they start to make these kinds of threats.
#2: What nuclear threat? When has America ever threatened anyone with nuclear weapons besides Japan? Isn’t it fairly clear to the world that America has resolved to never use nuclear weapons again? In fact if all-out war did break out, America still would not use nuclear devices against North Korea. Not even if North Korea used them against America. I can guarantee that.


Under certain leadership America may have targeted a country without provocation, but no other leadership has been so bad, especially including the current one.
A new leader every 4 years. You take the good with the bad. Imagine if we had a system such as North Korea’s and Bush was a long-term leader.
Each new leader learns from the previous’ mistakes, and that is the whole point.

There is absolutely no chance of America provoking North Korea in any way should North Korea by itself not invoke such provokation.

Looking at their viewpoint? What is the purpose?
I am not saying this as a narrow-minded person, obviously, since I have worked in so many countries and get along so easily with everyone (the person making the tools for my engine is from Afghanistan and has even e-mailed me quotes such as “Allahu Akbar”, and if I saw anyone giving him any level of racism I would kick that person’s ass).

The plain and simple facts are that America broke them free from Japan many years ago and since some family thinks it needs more power they are upset about it. Meanwhile America doesn’t give a shit about Asia, much less specific countries such as Korea. America is only focused on the Middle East.
A few wars waged, a delusional dictator brought down (since he executed anyone who gave him bad news people never gave him bad news, and by the end of his time he really believed he could conquer the world), and nothing related to Asia at all.

And the dictators of North Korea want to somehow turn this into aggression towards them.


If they didn’t speak so many words of terror against the world’s 15th economic power, how has never made a provocative move towards North Korea (cite me on this}), they wouldn’t have to fear anything from America.
How does that not make sense?

And don’t give me any of that “seeing it from their viewpoint” bullshit.
Because the only thing I can see as a nation’s leader is an import/export trade as a start to economic growth.

His people starve while he gets fat.

Don’t even question why I dislike him and his family. There is no justification for his existence except that his father used his power to rape a woman without being jailed for it.
As a dictator, my policy would be to get revenge on America by creating a stronger economy than theirs.

Their strategy instead is to just threaten the world into giving them food and aid. Such an existence, a burden to the world, is unnecessary.


If you want to see their side so much, now you can imagine being the person who gets his way only by threatening others.
At the school dance you got to dance with the cute girl just because you threatened to beat up her boyfriend.

Of course with Kim Fat in charge, it’s more like you threatened to beat up her boyfriend, so she danced with you, and then you beat up her boyfriend anyway.

It seems as though you are very willing to see their side of it.
Which is great! Me too!
I even dated one of them!

But, um…

Why are you so open-minded and yet so close-minded?
Or, why are you so selectively open-minded?
Threats against North Korea aside from those they bring on themselves? Seriously?
If they did not mention nuclear threats, who would have? Seriously? No one ever thought about North Korea and nukes until they themselves made such a connection in the publics’ minds.

But all of that aside, my main beef with North Korea is its policy towards its people.
You have to keep his picture in your home. His picture is on every train.
Give me a frigging break.

A person I respect for his technical expertise is Hodgman. Would it not make more sense to have his picture in their homes and on their trains? What the fuck did Kim Fat do to deserve respect from anyone?
You don’t just go around telling people they need to have your picture in their homes and in their trains unless you are a world champion in something.

Ironically, I have been a world champion 4 times and have never requested my picture to be in anyone’s home!


L. Spiro

From their point of view, living under nuclear threat with no countermeasure for 50 years is provocation, and their research is just an obvious reaction to it.

Who ever threatened them with nukes?
This is where I just stop following your arguments.

You still think I'm trying to make some kind of argument about NK being an okay guy? Maybe if you remove the bold part of the quote, but that's the key part you keep skipping over in every post. I'm explaining their worldview to explain their actions, not agreeing with their worldview to justify their actions! There's a huge difference between the two!

There is absolutely no chance of America provoking North Korea in any way should North Korea by itself not invoke such

This is the point - from the US's view, NK developing nukes counts as provocation, but them possessing their own nukes in SK is completely reasonable.
From NK's view, developing their own nukes is a completely reasonable sovereign right, and the US importing weapons into SK counts as provocation.
Notice the two worldviews don't agree on what is reasonable and what is provocation? In order to not be accused of provokation by the other (which in turn surely generates deliberate provocation), each side needs to understand and accept the others worldview. This isn't the case - we reject theirs, and they reject ours, therefore, both sides keep doing self-justified but externally provocative things.

Looking at their viewpoint? What is the purpose?

As above, they don't respect our viewpoint, which is one reason they step on our toes (e.g. Testing nukes). We also don't respect theirs, which is why we step on their toes.

Any form of communication relies on a shared worldview, or at least mutual understanding of each others. If a new friend doesn't understand your sense of humor, or is from a state with a different dialect/slang, or has simply had different experiences with certain social customs, then that will harm your ability to communicate. If you have a foreign girlfriend with strong traditions, and you ignore hose customs and belittle them, then the relationship probable won't last long.

Without being able to adopt someone else's worldview completely, then you'll never be able to communicate with them completely.

Meanwhile America doesn’t give a shit about Asia, much less specific countries such as Korea. America is only focused on the Middle East.

its a global superpower interested in maintaining influence everywhere. Of course they care about Asia. Look at world bank links to Asia, or the number of diplomatic cables (seeing they're public these days). The "empire" is not so fickle to let whole spheres of influence decay because of one focus... Come on. Asia is a hugely important battleground between Chinese, Russian and western spheres of influence!

SK has never made a provocative move towards North Korea (cite me on this}), NK wouldn’t have to fear anything from America.

SK has done plenty to offend the north, within the North's worldview. Your original link in this thread quotes them as saying "you will not survive unless you meet our demands", which sparked the sea of fire response (from NK's POV, that's completely justified).

And don’t give me any of that “seeing it from their viewpoint” bullshit.

ok. I'll just walk into this lion's cage, and blame the lion when it attacks me. I won't bother thinking about its behaviors.

Don’t even question why I dislike him and his family.

you think I like the lion, simply because i dont want to be eaten by it?

Again, simply because I wish for people to be able to communicate, which requires understanding different and often uncomfortable worldviews (like what it's like the lead the worlds largest and most extreme personality cult), that doesn't mean that I love North Korea and hate America.
Ironically, the way this thread is going, I almost expect that to be quoted as "...I love North Korea and hate America".......

I get what you are saying Hodgman, it's just that it's really hard to see any rationality in North Korea justifications of their nuclear threats...we can point out as many faults, but in the end, we still have a leader who is unable to accept the fact that South Korea exists and will continue to exist whether he likes it or not. Ultimately, this is all about South Korea in the end anyways. It's not about the US (directly), nor is it about Japan. It's about the fact that any North Korean leader craves taking South Korea but knows that he can't because of the powerful allies (the US) that it has. So the leader gets angry at the US helping them militarily. He makes threats. The American response is to help the South Koreans more. It is an endless cycle.

It is true though that this all begins with the Cold War. The US supported South Korea initially as a bulwark against Communism. In that sense, we can say that this all started with the Cold War. However, that is now over. The North is unable to move on from that time. So, since they believe that the South has no right to be an independent country, they hate it when the Americans come through and give military aid. It's the same issue China had with Taiwan at one point (may still have). Hodgman is correct in stating that the North has plenty of justification as per their beliefs. It's just that the basis for their beliefs are a little irrational. South Korea is here to stay, just as North Korea is here to stay. Reunification is not going to happen anytime soon.

I don't see why people get all up and arms about what is happening in/with the NK. China will not let NK shoot a nuke at the US. Because they know it will bring the full brunt of the US to Chinese territory. And it will turn into a proxy war, which will turn into a full war. It's not gonna happen. You all need to relax.

And as far as pulling out of SK, why? We have there a regional partner, economic partner, military partner. Why would we mess any of that up?

I don't see why people get all up and arms about what is happening in/with the NK. China will not let NK shoot a nuke at the US. Because they know it will bring the full brunt of the US to Chinese territory. And it will turn into a proxy war, which will turn into a full war. It's not gonna happen. You all need to relax.

I am not worried about nukes at all. I live in a city that has placed PAC-3 missiles around itself to ward off threats from North Korea, and yet I continue to stay because I see no threat at all.
Of course, no threat of nukes, absolutely, but also no threats from smaller missiles. North Korea just has no power. If I did not fully believe that, I would not be living in a city it has threatened and which has surrounded itself with PAC-3 defense missiles.

And as far as pulling out of SK, why? We have there a regional partner, economic partner, military partner. Why would we mess any of that up?

Wrong topic.

Again, simply because I wish for people to be able to communicate, which requires understanding different and often uncomfortable worldviews (like what it's like the lead the worlds largest and most extreme personality cult), that doesn't mean that I love North Korea and hate America.
Ironically, the way this thread is going, I almost expect that to be quoted as "...I love North Korea and hate America".......

I guess I have tried not to touch on your point about seeing their viewpoint as a courtesy. Frankly, I don’t believe your idea of their viewpoint. I don’t believe they really see things that way. Their words and actions are contradictory. They don’t like America or South Korea, but they don’t dislike them as much as you say. Those are past events and 3 generations of forgotten hatred.

Rather than true hatred, all it is is custom to them now. They just keep playing it up because that is what they have always done, and it masks/justifies their selfish intentions. Kim Fat wants to rule more land. It’s just simple.

Consider various factors.
#1: I was bullied as a kid in school. I grew up to make people laugh with my comedy, completely letting go of the past torture I endured.
#2: If I am a ruler of a country, and if I hold that country’s best interest truly at heart, I would do the same thing. Forget the past, open our borders to a trade business, and promote economic growth.
#3: I would furthermore open the country to a democracy in which they can elect their leaders. I would give up my power, knowing that in any case I would still be wealthy, famous, and influential, and let the people serve themselves.
#4: Why was South Korea able to do this when North Korea could not?


But let’s say your idea of their viewpoint is correct because, frankly, no one knows what they are thinking.
It’s still irresponsible. A dictator has a responsibility to his or her people and the economy of the country.
You can’t acknowledge in any way a viewpoint whose economic status rivals the Sahara Desert. The dictator has a choice to either hold onto grudges and put all of its money into military or to let it go, acknowledge that the past is the past, we weren’t alive then, we had no control, and that is just how it turned out, and do the grown-up thing by moving on with life and promote economic growth.

His point of view simply doesn’t matter if it is causing him to behave so childishly while his people starve.
It’s just simple. It isn’t even a matter of my own views or the views of the west or the views of America. It’s a simple fact that he has a responsibility to his people which he is ignoring in favor of spreading hatred and spite.
When you ignore your people, for whom you are responsible, it no longer matters what your point of view is. You are wrong. Irresponsible. Period.


L. Spiro

Here's a nice

">video asking a very good question, "Why Do We See North Korea as a Joke & Iran as a Threat? "