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Ideas needed for Blacksmith mini game.


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#1 Scouting Ninja   Members   -  Reputation: 712

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:26 PM

Like most rpg games I have a Blacksmith mini game that allows players to craft weapons and armour, the problem is within the mini game it self.

 

You start with a material (Iron), each material has deferent bonuses based on wat type of object it is used(1% damage, 1% defence).

You can use up to five materials (5* 1% = 5% Bonus) and rare materials have bigger bonuses(Platinum 5% *5 =25%).

 

I was thinking of making each object in separate parts: sword = Blade + Hilt , to improve the flexibility of the crafting system.  

The problem with this step is that if I keep to using the bonus damage a sword could then improve damage by 50%, this combined with the skills will shift power to vastly.

Using defence for the hilt will again over power the balance of the player when combined with the stats of armour, I don't want to use float values for stats.

Any Ideas to fix this or to improve flexibility of the crafting system.

 

Details:

Player can only equip 1 weapon, a duel wielded weapon adds a extra attack at the cost of accuracy.

Player can only wear one armour and two accessories a accessory only adds a effect  or small bonus(5% max).

 

Stats:

Str,Int,Dex --> Hp,Mp,Fp --> Damage,Magick,Speed--> Defence, Magic Defence,Accuracy.

Str+1 = Hp +5 --> Damage +2 --> Defence +1 etc.

 

Next is the way the mini game plays, for now it is a simple button bashing mini game.

You hit the action key to fill a bar that is harder to fill depending on what material you use, considering that a tester broke a keyboard I am looking for something more subtle.

I was thinking in the line of heat the material to a recommended point and clicking on deformations for the hammering part, but I have no idea how smiting really works or how to translate it to my mini game when I learn it.(Downloaded some pdf)



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#2 sunandshadow   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4983

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:21 PM

I don't think that counts as a mini-game quite yet... It has to actually be a fun activity to be a minigame.

Both Puzzle Pirates and A Tale In The Desert have decent blacksmithing mini-games, lemme see if youtube has videos of them.  In most cases you will have to also find a non-video guide if you need to know the basics of how the game works.

(this video is bad but it was the only relevant video)

This is a different atitd minigame, alloy-making, but this kind of activity could be adopted for a blacksmithing activity

Similarly Puzzle Pirates Shipwright minigame could be adapted to a blacksmithing theme.


Edited by sunandshadow, 09 April 2013 - 10:43 PM.

Phone game idea available free to someone who will develop it (Alphadoku game - the only existing phone game of this type is both for windows phone only and awful. PM for details.)


I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.


#3 Scouting Ninja   Members   -  Reputation: 712

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:23 AM

don't think that counts as a mini-game quite yet... It has to actually be a fun activity to be a minigame.

 

I get what you are saying, after looking at those videos I can see that thy are all true mini games.

 

The problem with my game is that you play with a team of 6 players that you control and equip, so I need a mini game that is fast so that players don't get bored with the repetition, also team members will be swapped often.

I will keep the one from Puzzle Pirates in mind, the alloy making is a very interesting idea but I don't think it will match my game.



#4 mippy   Members   -  Reputation: 1004

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:29 AM

  • Perhaps you could pick elements from IRL crafting and implement them: 


#5 Mito   Members   -  Reputation: 855

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:39 AM

maybe something like this minecraft mod does?

 

http://terrafirmacraft.com/wiki/Anvil#Working (Direct link for the smithing minigame)



#6 TechnoGoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2787

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:40 AM

I'm reminded of the puzzle in the Discworld game where you had to choose wacky elements that a hero would have inorder to give him a million to one chance of defeating a dragon.

 

What if  the mini game was like that?

 

You have slots on a crafting plan some optional other mandatory, and a range of different materials or objects that you can place in those slots.  They all combine together to make the finished product.  The mini game is figuring out what combinations give you what kind of weapon you're looking for.  As well as finding new parts, items, and processes.

 

For instance lets say you have the plans for a long sword

 

it has 1 slot in forging, 1 in blade, 1 in hilt, and 1 in finishing.

One combination you might try is:

  • Forged Under a full moon
  • Blade of Meteoric Iron
  • Hilt from the Sword of Usurper
  • Finished in Virgin's Blood

That might create a wicked bastard sword of rightous slaying.  With a bonus to good alignment and an attack of 50

 

Or you might try

 

  • Blade of Meteoric Iron
  • Hilt of Bamboo
  • Finished in With a silk cloth

That creates a keen blade ignore 5 points of armor 10 attack +10 dexterity.



#7 Scouting Ninja   Members   -  Reputation: 712

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:37 AM

Perhaps you could pick elements from IRL crafting

Wow! Thanks for that link, I definitely want to use it.

maybe something like this minecraft mod does?

This was the kind of thing I was thinking about, I will have to simplify it, that looked like a lot to learn just to make a axe.

it has 1 slot in forging, 1 in blade, 1 in hilt, and 1 in finishing.
One combination you might try is:
Forged Under a full moon
Blade of Meteoric Iron
Hilt from the Sword of Usurper
Finished in Virgin's Blood
That might create a wicked bastard sword of rightous slaying.  With a bonus to good alignment and an attack of 50

OK, nice idea but I already have over 40 official materials and a list of around 70 more that I want in the game.

So maybe craft each part on its own with the materials and then combined them in that order e.g.

 

Blade = Iron * 2 + meteor piece = Blade of Meteoric Iron

Hilt = Silver + Gold = Silver hilt with gold finish.

 Blade of Meteoric Iron(Blade) + Silver hilt with gold finish (Hilt) + Virgin's Blood (catalyst) = Pure meteor sword.

Stats:

+5%Damage[rounded Iron bonus] +2%Speed +3%Accuracy + Holly damage= 2* damage vs undead

 

Blade Platinum * 3 = Platinum blade.

Hilt = Silver + Gold = Silver hilt with gold finish.

Platinum blade(Blade) + Silver hilt with gold finish (Hilt) + crafting kit (catalyst) = Beautiful Platinum Sword.

Stats:

+15%Damage +2%Speed +3%Accuracy + Value boost = This item is worth 10% more gold.

 

This also makes naming easy: (adjusted catalyst)+(Blade)+(Type).



#8 TechnoGoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2787

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:23 PM

You could give materials traits which are tied into the prefixes and suffixes.  For instance for your if platinum has prestige, wealth, and lighting.  

Beautiful might require 3 points of wealth to unlock while Legendary requires all materials and catalysts to have prestigious. You can also make certain affixes require a specific catalyst.

 

Then ranking the affixes so you always get the highest ranked one.

 

Then your naming formula is:

 

(prefix * X) + blade + type + (suffix  * Y)

 

That could give things likes:

pure meteoric sword

meteoric sword of demon slaying

pure meteoric sword of demon slaying

 

Beautiful Platinum Sword

Legendary Beautiful Platinum Sword

 

Its the same sort of naming convention used by the Diablo games.



#9 Scouting Ninja   Members   -  Reputation: 712

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:56 PM

You could give materials traits which are tied into the prefixes and suffixes.  For instance for your if platinum has prestige, wealth, and lighting.

Could you elaborate?

Reading this I had a strange vision of slot machines with sevens lining up.

Its the same sort of naming convention used by the Diablo games.

I don,t really like Diablo's naming items because like other games with suffix naming the items feel unimportant, all you want is the one that gives the most stats, hunting from item to item.

Personally I like Fable's(Not 3! only 1 and 2) and Elder Scroll's items more because you know that steel is stronger than Iron so you desire a steel sword while you run around with a iron one.

For my game I want a large collection of material type weapons where even weak weapons can still be useful.(Like the silver sword in oblivion)



#10 Randel   Members   -  Reputation: 326

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:52 PM

Check out the flash game Jacksmith if you haven't already. It should give you some ideas. Do you intend to have your blades break or dull with use? I think having the material determine the weapons durability would be the most intuitive. Damage would likely be a function of how sharp or well balanced the weapon is (with that decreasing with use depending on durability). Perhaps you could add a way to re-forge broken or outdated weapons so players can stick with one "favorite weapon" and improve it over the course of the game. Or, they start with an iron sword, then can reforge it to steel, silver, adamantine, etc until they end up with their Infinity+1 blade at the end... but it's technicaly still the sword they started out with.

#11 Scouting Ninja   Members   -  Reputation: 712

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:46 PM

flash game Jacksmith

Thanks I checked it out, and I like the smelting allot and the hammering was OK.



#12 Azaral   Members   -  Reputation: 463

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:14 AM

I do blacksmithing as a hobby so I think I will chime in.

A real sword has 4 parts. The first and obviously most important part is the blade. The blade runs then entire length of the sword from the blade down to where it turns into the tang and a little bit further.

The material it is made of determines a lot about the blade. Steel comes in many varying alloys (there are literally hundreds, if not thousands). The most basic steel alloy is a mixture of iron and carbon, which is steel. The carbon and iron form a crystalline matrix which is what gives steel it's strength. Your basic steel you buy from like Lowe's or Home Depot is usually something low carbon like 1018, which is .18% carbon and 99.82% iron (by mass). A file for instance, which is used to shape metal, can be upwards of .9% to 1.2% depending on the alloy.

The more carbon, the harder the steel is. This is measured on the Rockwell C scale (typically, there are multiple scaling conventions). A typical file could be upwards to RC 65 depending on the alloy. A tungsten carbide alloy is upwards of RC 85 (this is what is used to machine hard metals typically).

The hardness is a result of carbon content and the heat treating process, which is probably the MOST crucial process  of making a blade. It, along with alloy, determines EVERYTHING about the blade and it is all about trade offs. The harder your make the metal, the better it will hold its edge but the more brittle it will be. The tougher (less brittle) you make it, the worse it will hold its' edge. I've shown many people that i can break a piece of steel with my bare hands happy.png

There are 4 heat treatment processes: annealing, normalizing, quenching, tempering. The first 3 involve heating the metal to the 'critical point' and cooling it at some rate. Tempering in involves heating the metal to low (relatively) temperature and holding it there. They all change the metal in different ways by manipulating the matrix of the iron and the alloyed elements included in it. The critical point is the point at which the alloyed elements move freely about the sea of iron. It is different depending on the alloys involved. For plain carbon steels it is ~1500 degrees F

There are several states for the crystaline structure and you can have several throughout a single piece. Martensite is the hardest. It is also the most brittle. Perlite is the softest but toughest. Austenite is the state where the alloyed elements can move freely about the iron.

Annealing is heating the metal past critical and then cooling it very slowly. Most blacksmiths will bury the heated metal in vermiculite and let it sit for a day. It will often come out still very hot. Annealing in a controlled professional environment will cool it in the furnace at Xdegress per time. The purpose of annealing is to take the metal to it's maximum softness and to remove built up stresses in the metal. Stresses come from working the metal, such as forging and machining. The metal grain has a kind flow about it and annealing allows the metal to reform this flow and make the material as a whole much stronger.

Normalizing is the same as annealing, but it is cooled faster. Instead of cooling it inside of an insulation, you just allow it to cool in the air. This makes the metal softer and removes stresses, but to a lesser degree than normalizing. It is done when the stresses built up are not severe and maximum softness is not necessary. It is much faster than annealing.

Quenching is heating the metal past critical, and then rapidly cooling the metal. This is probably the most difficult heat treating process because it creates TREMENDOUS stress in the metal because of the thermal shock. The more alloyed elements, specifically carbon, the slower it must be cooled. There are three quenching mediums: water, oil, and air (yeah air), in order of speed. Quenching something too fast will cause it to break from the thermal shock. Quenching forms martensite, which is the crystaline structure that makes steel hard. However, right after quenching, the blade is INCREDIBLE brittle. You could take a sword freshly quench and break it very easily by trying to bend it.

Once you quench something, you must temper it. Tempering reduces the hardness in exchange for toughness, the ability to resist breaking. Tempering is heating the metal to a specific temperature and holding it there allowing the metal to soak. Typically the time is for an hour, and typically at least 2 soaks are done. The higher the temperature, the tougher and softer it will make the metal. Typically, before modern metalurgical science, blacksmiths would heat the metal until it turned blue and then they would heat it no further. The temperature you temper at depends on what you want the final products properties to be. A sword would typically be tempered at a higher temperature because it needs to be able to deal with being bent versus a knife which would be tempered at a lower temperature because the change of it being bent is much lower.

There is also a technique of differential hardening. This is where you leave the edge exposed or lightly covered in clay, but cover the spine completely with a clay substance. The blade is heated and quenched. The clay on the spine prevents it from being fully hardened, thus making it very tough while the exposed edge is made hard. The idea is to get the part that needs to be hard, the cutting edges, hard and the rest to be tough. The Japanese are probably the most famous for this, but everybody did it at some point. It produces what is called a hamon and they are really quit beautiful.
The hamon is the border between the hardened part and the unhardened part.

orig.jpg

There are also three basic material construction methods. Monosteel, san mai, and damascus. Monosteel is the most basic, where the entire blade is comprised of one alloy. The other two involve a process called forge welding. San mai is a steel sandwhich. You have a piece of hard alloy sandwhich between two pieces of tough steel. You forge weld the pieces together and make the blade. When the blade is beveled and sharpened, you expose the hard steel meat layer, which is supported by the tough steel bread layers.

Damascus steel is alternating layers of different steel alloys. They are then forge welded together, drawn out, folder over and forge welded together. This is repeated several times. This creates a very interesting pattern which can be manipulated to make new patterns. Whether or not it benefits the integrity of the blade is a matter of debate and I haven't read of any scientific studies done to make any real conclusions, that isn't to say they don't exist. However, it is NOT the stuff of legend that can cut through solid steel bars. That is Hollywood hype bullshit.

The other three parts are the hilt, the handle and the pommel. They forms a sandwich. The hilt and the pommel are what keep the handle on. The hilt is the 'hand guard' piece. It has a hole that is shaped so as to fit to the wider part of the blade. The tang goes through it. The handle, often made of wood, has a hole formed to fit VERY tightly onto the tang. This is often achieved by a process called 'burning in' in which the tang is heated and the handle, having been pre-drilled as closely as possible, is forced onto the heated metal. This will actually vaporize the wood in a manner of speaking and cause the wood to be compressed and what not against the tang. It is repeated several times until the handle fits as it should (or its ruined heh). The pommel is then put on after the handle. The blade will then have some material sticking out of the pommel which is cut to the desired length and peened down to rivet the pommel in place.

 

This video shows the process of making a damascus sword.



Once the parts are all put together, the final sharpening and polishing (if desired) are done.


Edited by Azaral, 18 April 2013 - 07:15 AM.


#13 Mito   Members   -  Reputation: 855

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:15 AM

Azaral gave the best description of a forging process that i've ever heard (or read).

 

I've technical level on Mechanics (not sure what's the name of the degree in english), and I can confirm everything he says about alloys and thermal treatments.



#14 Azaral   Members   -  Reputation: 463

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:30 AM

Azaral gave the best description of a forging process that i've ever heard (or read).

 

I've technical level on Mechanics (not sure what's the name of the degree in english), and I can confirm everything he says about alloys and thermal treatments.

 

Thanks, writing that post actually inspired me to write an article on the matter, which I am doing now.



#15 Scouting Ninja   Members   -  Reputation: 712

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:45 AM

I do blacksmithing as a hobby so I think I will chime in.

Thanks Azaral for sharing what you know and describing the important parts.

I will have to review my mini game and see how I can improve on it using this knowledge.

Thanks, writing that post actually inspired me to write an article on the matter, which I am doing now.

This will be great for RPG's.


Edited by Scouting Ninja, 19 April 2013 - 10:47 AM.


#16 Azaral   Members   -  Reputation: 463

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:54 AM

I do blacksmithing as a hobby so I think I will chime in.

Thanks Azaral for sharing what you know and describing the important parts.

I will have to review my mini game and see how I can improve on it using this knowledge.

 

>Thanks, writing that post actually inspired me to write an article on the matter, which I am doing now.

This will be great for RPG's.

 

 

The article was rejected as not being within the scope of the site. However, I made it a journal entry instead. It is a series kind of thing where I will explore making blacksmithing something more real than it currently is implemented in many games.



#17 Scouting Ninja   Members   -  Reputation: 712

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:52 PM

I made it a journal entry instead

Read it and wan't to know if there is some kind of cheatsheet that shows how much a material effects the complete blade.

In your journal under selecting the alloy, you write about how much deferent percentages of alloys affect the material.

I have a good idea of how to make a mini game where a player can decide on there own mixtures of alloys, but I have no idea of how it will affect the material.

Is there some kind of list of basic alloys and how thy could possibly affect the material?

If not can you just give a short description e.g. Carbon increase hardness/ decrease durability.



#18 Azaral   Members   -  Reputation: 463

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:44 PM

It really depends on the detail you want your end stats to have. There are a lot of alloys and the applications of them can get pretty specific. The alloys are made largely for industrial applications.

If you like, send me a PM describing the level of detail you want to get into in your items and I can help you devise something. It's really too complicated for forum posting, and I'm really not ALL that knowledgeable. It's like the difference between a guy who is a hobby machinist, and a guy that machines complicated parts all day long following very specific engineering requirements. Luckily though, for bringing blacksmithing into a game it's more than enough, unless you want a full on metallurgical simulation running in your game.


Edited by Azaral, 19 April 2013 - 10:49 PM.


#19 Azaral   Members   -  Reputation: 463

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:05 PM

Also added an update the the journal entry adding a section in the heat treating part talking about cryotreatment.






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