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Economics engine


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#41 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 933

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:17 PM

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/LarsDoucet/20130603/193491/BazaarBot_An_OpenSource_Economics_Engine.php



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#42 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:23 AM

Corporation-States is done. It will disappoint you.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/109630018/CorpStates.zip

Coming for iPhone and iPad on the 14th.

#43 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:26 PM

http://www.gamedev.net/blog/1512/entry-2256483-a-history-in-art/

I'm going to try to get States and Corporations published on Steam or Desura or something. I feel like I'm wasting my effort otherwise. I'm going to license my RTS economics engine to other people.

I'm not going to continue with the BSP/inside buildings/terrain mesh effort. I'll start working on States and Corporations now and making it non-grid based like SimCity 5. It will include multiplayer and ability to host your own persistent servers on linux.

I could take a year to release the first States and Corporations and then work on a sequel.

I hope you'll support my IndieGoGo effort. Let me know what you want to see in the game and in the engine for possible perks.

Ideas for multiple currencies: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/currency_symbols.html

I started on a chart of the economy. You can see how massive it can get. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/109630018/economy.png

The ultimate strategy game! If I systematically balance it to the end and don't get lazy that is. You can see how I balance in my blog http://www.gamedev.net/blog/1512/entry-2256426-balancing-an-economy/ http://www.gamedev.net/blog/1512/entry-2256439-half-hour-game/ I had an idea for a balancing calculator but that could require an equation solving algorithm.

Thank you for your ongoing support.

Edited by polyfrag, 13 June 2013 - 10:17 PM.


#44 Unduli   Members   -  Reputation: 904

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:21 AM

Good luck , hope to comment when I have time

 

But actually what I wonder first is the name of the book :)



#45 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:07 AM

Stoddart Colour-Visual Dictionary.

Also, Infrastructure by Brian Hayes is pretty good for a view on how industries work, in terms of buildings and inputs/outputs.

#46 spocchio   Members   -  Reputation: 139

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:48 AM


Like the new SimCity, an agent-based approach simulates units instead of using statistics/formulas.

As I understood the player will govern a very large ensemble of construction and prices of materials..
Unless in the case with very few constructions, what makes you think the final outcome will be different from a statistical one?



#47 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:50 AM

I dunno but I don't want to use statistics. Feels fake.


Edited by polyfrag, 03 July 2013 - 08:21 AM.


#48 wodinoneeye   Members   -  Reputation: 771

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 04:55 PM

defining all the entities is the simple part - making them all interact correctly is the part of the simulation which will be 99% of the detail  (real economies interact in complex/diverse/intricate ways with alot of mechanisms to make them stable  (not just the primary production)

 

If you are going for realism you will have to do it with LOTS of entities for the large economy  -- generalizations will only get you so far

 

Tuning it to be stable or retrofitting systems to self stabalize -- that will be alot of your work

 

Once you get into politics and 'effects of'   then it increases a magintude in all the inner workings you will have to simulate

 

And for an evolving simulation there are all the different stages you have to go thru where stability is to be achieved but you only have a growing subset of the stabalizing mechanism available  (and their effectiveness evolves too - many dont scale)


--------------------------------------------Ratings are Opinion, not Fact

#49 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:53 AM

Yes, it's definitely a complex undertaking.

What this originally was was an improvement to the mechanics of WarCraft 2/Age of Empires 3-era RTS. I think I should stick to that.

#50 LancerSolurus   Members   -  Reputation: 587

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:02 AM

Hi to an old friend and congrats on your game release. Have you considered adding managers to your business model to handle some of the micro-management model of the corporations the player sets up? Give them orders and they carry it out for you... 


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#51 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:01 PM

Maybe a manager at each building. They could adjust prices, hire workers. I want to keep it simple though.



#52 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:48 PM

State gameplay

Some problems I face now that I've decided to separate states and corporations: The state players need stuff to do, besides paying the military on taxes collected from businesses and citizens on their territory. There's police, healthcare, education, pension. I need to find the simplest solution.

Split corporations

Also, in a real war, could a corporation operate on both sides?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_General_Motors#World_War_II

 

 

By mainstream accounts, General Motors' German subsidiary (Adam Opel AG) was outside the control of the American parent corporation during World War II. Some conspiracy theorists posit that this was a hoax, with the American GM as a secret war profiteer on both sides, but Alfred Sloan's memoir, for example,[16] presents a description of lost control that is much more Occam-compliant than the fringe alternatives. [...] During the war, GM declared it had abandoned its German subsidiary, and took a complete tax write-off worth "approximately $22.7 million", yet after the war, GM collected some $33 million in "war reparations" because the Allies had bombed its German facilities.

 

Maybe the same player retains control but the finances are managed separately, and are rejoined after the war ends.

Unit production

Factories produce trucks and military units. Trucks can be ordered by any corp. Military units can only be ordered by states from factories on their own land, or bought from other states as arms shipments.

Taxes

Taxes are manufacturer's, wholesale, retail, and income.

http://taxhistory.tax.org/Civilization/Documents/Sales/hst6646/6646-1.htm

Manufacturer's tax would apply to trucks and military products.

Wholesale would apply to uranium, coal, crude oil, "production", and farm products.

Retail would apply to electricity, gasoline and "consumer goods" (food). In real life electricity is probably retail but I should make it wholesale because only buildings use electricity, unless I program some civilian use for it.

Income would apply anywhere labourers are paid.

Autonomous military

I think guns, armour, and vehicles/tanks will be manufactured, but labourers must actually be hired to use them. They would need to be off-duty sometimes to rest and shop/eat.

Murder simulators

I'm tired of the game mechanics of "murder simulators". It's probably why I don't enjoy playing games these days. Most games are in some way about killing enemies, even chess. Games are more and more lacking in motives. But it's still probably a viable solution to game design, with some new mechanics to it. I'm focusing so much on reality though that the focus on war seems hideous sometimes. Maybe a "chibi" style à la Smiley WarsWorld in Conflict seems about the proportion I'm aiming for.

There should be some way for corporations to buy out or out-compete/bankrupt other corporations.

Dynamic navmesh

Navmesh navigation would be a lot faster. All you have to do, is split some navmesh polygons whenever a new building is placed. And to use it, just run A* through the polygons and plot the shortest route between connecting shared edges between the path polygons.

How to handle unit avoidance though without making them part of the navmesh? A simple walk-by-on-the-right-side algorithm might do.

Crowds and waves of people would be a marvel to tinker with.



#53 wodinoneeye   Members   -  Reputation: 771

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 03:50 AM

I actually have an idea for stuff like this as an adjunct to a MMORPG game where somewhat less exciting activities  (managing 'growing' resources over time)  is to be done on handlheld/tablet interface devices 'offline' from the main game (PC or platform with full FPS graphics) .

 

Efforts done while the player is stuck in daily situations  feed into resources available in the 'online' game  (and its optional but efforts expended have positive results in-game).

 

Whole varieties of different activities and mini-games would be the idea   (many people have limited at-home playtime and this stretches that time by moving the tedious stuff offline).    2D and 3D (they are getting better) interfaces  for more 'retro' styles , not effected so much by handheld devices limitation

 

 

Better would be a MMORPG where players can create mods/scenarios for such games (tap into players creativity and also alleviate the stagnation of not enough new material for longtime MMORPG players)  


Edited by wodinoneeye, 15 August 2013 - 03:53 AM.

--------------------------------------------Ratings are Opinion, not Fact

#54 wodinoneeye   Members   -  Reputation: 771

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 03:55 AM

If you wantto get detailed,  then Corruption systems are a whole nuther dimension for such economies.   (At some point things can get too subtle/complex to program or even to present properly to the player)


Edited by wodinoneeye, 29 August 2013 - 12:18 AM.

--------------------------------------------Ratings are Opinion, not Fact

#55 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 02:25 PM

I'm going back to Corporation-States. I want to simulate things like bifurcation, butterfly effect, feedback, chaos theory and cybernetics.

 

Nothing to do now but wait until this second attempt is operational. In the meanwhile there will be idle thoughts. And noodles.

 

[edit] A problem I have with the BazaarBot / Ian Parberry model is it appears to require all the bids and asks to occur at the same time in auction.


Edited by polyfrag, 19 August 2013 - 01:18 AM.


#56 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 02:41 PM

There's sound cards, video cards, and even a physics processing unit. I wish they made dedicated economics-processing hardware, heh. Something pathfinding-intensive.


Edited by polyfrag, 25 August 2013 - 02:49 PM.


#57 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:27 PM

I didn't realize there's something called Jump Point Search, an A* pathfinding optimization that might make it 2-30 times faster (the longer the path, the more improvement).


Edited by polyfrag, 25 August 2013 - 03:27 PM.


#58 wodinoneeye   Members   -  Reputation: 771

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:23 AM

I'm going back to Corporation-States. I want to simulate things like bifurcation, butterfly effect, feedback, chaos theory and cybernetics.

 

Nothing to do now but wait until this second attempt is operational. In the meanwhile there will be idle thoughts. And noodles.

 

[edit] A problem I have with the BazaarBot / Ian Parberry model is it appears to require all the bids and asks to occur at the same time in auction.

 

 

Business models do allow for  proposals with open periods for prospective deals to be offered.  There is alot of inertia  involved the bigger things get  and the supplier sides also have their limited output they want to push to the best deal OR feeling out THEY have to do to sub-contractors to see what expansion possibilities they could maintains/risk....


--------------------------------------------Ratings are Opinion, not Fact

#59 polyfrag   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1836

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 02:11 PM

I've been working on this for 7 years. http://www.gamedev.net/topic/481977-economic-strategy-games/




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