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Microsoft burned down my home, where now?


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#21 Starnick   Members   -  Reputation: 1204

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:40 AM

And I should have clarified, I meant that MS isnt supporting XNA, which I think was one of the main reasons C# gained traction. It might very well continue to be used in Win8 applications, but since this is a game development forum I'm thinking mostly of... game development. As far as game development, c++ will continue to be the standard.

 

C++ isn't really used on its own, I like the language and use it but it isn't as super powerful as people claim it to be nor is C# another stupid slow managed language.

 

Majority aren't always right, I don't know about the game industry but I know of other major industries and typically following the bandwagon is rarely to do with productivity, it is more to do with shareholders / business managers lacking balls, and lets be honest here considering every other game released in the last few years is an ''upgrade' of some other game, I doubt the game industry are any different from other industries.

 

Besides you already said

 

"Just because something is widely used now doesnt mean it'll be widely used in the future."

 

Surely this must also apply to your C++ comment too then ;)

 

I say all of this as someone who uses both C# and C++ heavily and daily. Personally I always thought C# gained popularity because of how easy and efficient .NET was to make applications, work with databases and make websites.

 

Not to mention, companies with a large codebase may be reluctant to tear everything up to move to the latest trend in programming languages, that's sometimes too little gain for too much work (and work that potentially will be a nightmare to test). Hell, at work we still have numerical engines written in Fortran, even though our primary application development is in C# (and bits of C++/CLI here and there).



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#22 Kylotan   Moderators   -  Reputation: 3338

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:56 AM

C++ isn't really used on its own

Yes it is. There are plenty of games being made just in C++.

"Just because something is widely used now doesnt mean it'll be widely used in the future."

Surely this must also apply to your C++ comment too then ;)

Certainly. Nobody should be getting too attached to any one language and hoping that it'll live forever. Good programmers should be looking to learn new skills and tools when they become relevant and should be able to adapt to changes in where technology is headed.

Edited by Kylotan, 29 April 2013 - 10:56 AM.


#23 0r0d   Members   -  Reputation: 819

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:26 PM

++ isn't really used on its own,

Not sure what you mean by this.  Most professional gave developers use C++ on its own.

 

 


Besides you already said

 

"Just because something is widely used now doesnt mean it'll be widely used in the future."

 

Surely this must also apply to your C++ comment too then ;)

 

Yes, absolutely.  It's entirely plausible that eventually C++ will be supplanted by another language as the default/standard for game development.  But, that wont happen for a long time due to the sheer number of studios that use C++, plus how much code they have invested in the language, plus how much expertise is already there, plus the innate qualities that C++ brings to the table that are hard to match.  I feel pretty secure predicting that every next-gen console will be programmed in C++, and probably those in the gen after that.



#24 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 30384

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:41 PM



C++ isn't really used on its own,

Not sure what you mean by this. Most professional gave developers use C++ on its own.
Well, at every games company I've worked for, they've used C++ for the engine runtime out of necessity, and then a bunch of other languages for the toolchains (C#, Python, etc) and another language for gameplay programming (Lua, UnrealScript, etc), and another language for build automation, and another language for graphics, so it does hold true in my professional career.

Yes, there's too many hurdles to using C# in your cross platform, performant core engine runtime library right now, but it is becoming more and more popular for both gameplay and tools programming due to ease of use over C++.
At the last studio I worked for, all the programmers know C++, but the game itself (not the engine) is almost entirely written in Lua, because programmer productivity is more important than performance in that kind of code...

As for it's popularity being tied to XNA, that's not at all true in the professional world because we never picked up XNA, but we did pick up C# because it's a good 'productivity language'.

#25 0r0d   Members   -  Reputation: 819

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:12 PM

Not sure what you mean by this. Most professional gave developers use C++ on its own.

Well, at every games company I've worked for, they've used C++ for the engine runtime out of necessity, and then a bunch of other languages for the toolchains (C#, Python, etc) and another language for gameplay programming (Lua, UnrealScript, etc), and another language for build automation, and another language for graphics, so it does hold true in my professional career.

Yes, there's too many hurdles to using C# in your cross platform, performant core engine runtime library right now, but it is becoming more and more popular for both gameplay and tools programming due to ease of use over C++.
At the last studio I worked for, all the programmers know C++, but the game itself (not the engine) is almost entirely written in Lua, because programmer productivity is more important than performance in that kind of code...

As for it's popularity being tied to XNA, that's not at all true in the professional world because we never picked up XNA, but we did pick up C# because it's a good 'productivity language'.

Yup, I thought he meant the code for the game executable itself.  Tools, shaders, and scripting are a separate issue.  C++ isnt used for those because they are inherently different from executable code, which is the purview of C++. 



#26 Chad Smith   Members   -  Reputation: 1133

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:14 PM

Ok, it seems this thread has almost turned into a C++ vs. C# kind of thread almost.  We've been down that road before getting no where but a dead split with some developers thinking C++ will remain the industry standard for games with C# being, like was mentioned, a "pet" language, with even some professional developers saying they feel the switch to C# will happen and it could become standard.  I just feel it'd be a pretty expensive move for companies to switch their entire code base over to a new language.



#27 Memories are Better   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 769

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:48 AM

Yup, I thought he meant the code for the game executable itself. Tools, shaders, and scripting are a separate issue. C++ isnt used for those because they are inherently different from executable code, which is the purview of C++.

 

That was a terrible defensive response and you know it :D a game isn't a mere exe and dlls :P; funny you should mention shaders though, because if anything it seems all my graphics development focuses more on HLSL than C# / C++ combined, but then what would I know, by your own words C# programmers are "amateur developers" (im amazed no one commented on that yet) :P



#28 LordRhys   Members   -  Reputation: 355

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 05:21 AM

There are rumors already that MS has a new version of a managed Direct X language that will coincide with the release of the new XBOX version

#29 VladR   Members   -  Reputation: 722

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:54 AM

There are rumors already that MS has a new version of a managed Direct X language that will coincide with the release of the new XBOX version

 

I must have missed that. Any link ?


VladR    My 3rd person action RPG on GreenLight:    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92951596

 


#30 mhagain   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7969

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

There were already Managed DirectX tutorial threads and managed vs non-managed flame wars here on Gamedev and other forums a few years before Microsoft even announced XNA.  There were also several .NET games programming blogs around that simply updated their content to be XNA specific.  Also the C++ DirectX SDK also had a couple of examples using C# as a scripting language from within a native C++ game.  So I think it already had traction in the game dev comunity before XNA.
 

 

Mind you you only have to remmember what happened to managed DirectX and then it isn't really a suprise that microsoft dropped XNA.

 

And despite that you can still create a new Windows Forms app in Visual Studio today, go to References, Add Reference, pick ".NET" and all of the "Microsoft.DirectX" stuff is still available for use.

 

That's a cautionary lesson in the whole "WAAAHH!!!  MICROSOFT KILLED XNA AND NOW I CAN DO NOTHING!!!!" drama.  Despite the fact that Managed DirectX was killed years ago, it is still available for use.  What is it that is causing people to think that the situation would be otherwise with XNA?


It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.


#31 PoisonHeart   Members   -  Reputation: 101

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:21 AM

zounds...i'm really glad I wasn't the only one not picking my nose and not communicating with anyone about this issue.

 

On the other hand, shame on you people! I've been learning C# for awhile now, and from a developer standpoint, this is an investment. I don't have time or resources to doubt myself and reverse all the time I've spent on it now in favor of C++.

It's not about the language, it's about what you say, right?

On the other hand, XNA is/was THE ONLY WAY to port a game over to 360. Smoke that chiba for a minute. I really could care less about XNA framework for PC, but again, there is/was no other way to get your game on 360. Furthermore, I work on a graphics chip that isn't supported by XNA 4.0, therefor not supported by Monogame.

 

So yeah, MS did sort of burn the house down on that. Considering the overwhelming popularity of 360 in the North American market, the door is closing on Indie Devs for a console market. You could make the argument that MS is edging us out in favor of the large studios like Bethesda and Gearbox, because they HAVE NO CREATIVITY LEFT. They need the pull of Microsoft and Sony to dick us out of their field. You really think they want creative, amped-up competition from about 10,000 indie devs that have poured more heart and soul into this than a 2-year program at the Art Institute could ever buy?

 

yeah, sorry...I'm a novice, amateur. again, it's not about the language, it's about what you say. there's a lot of untapped potential left in the 360, but you can only sell the console to so many people before everyone's got one.

 

anyway, thanks for clarifying a few things I've been wondering about, also. cool community, glad it's here, just not sure where to go for Console development from here on out.



#32 kunos   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2207

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:07 AM

XNA isn't working anymore on the 360? When did that happen?

rolleyes.gif


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#33 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7267

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:28 AM

On the other hand, XNA is/was THE ONLY WAY to port a game over to 360. Smoke that chiba for a minute. I really could care less about XNA framework for PC, but again, there is/was no other way to get your game on 360. Furthermore, I work on a graphics chip that isn't supported by XNA 4.0, therefor not supported by Monogame.
 
So yeah, MS did sort of burn the house down on that. Considering the overwhelming popularity of 360 in the North American market, the door is closing on Indie Devs for a console market.

Does XNA still work on the 360? Because if so whats the problem?

All this means is that MS are no longer going to develop XNA going forward which makes sense as it is a poor fit, API wise, for newer hardware which exists.

Chances are that next XBox will have an 'indie' section like the 360 and because it is expected to be built on the same foudations as Windows Phone 8 and Windows Store apps development will be along the same lines; pick your language (C++ being an option, so already indies can get ahead of the game) and go.

At least this is what I expect anyway...

#34 japro   Members   -  Reputation: 887

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:45 AM

...I've been learning C# for awhile now, and from a developer standpoint, this is an investment. I don't have time or resources to doubt myself and reverse all the time I've spent on it now in favor of C++...

Luckily programming skill isn't language specific. There is no reason to "reverse all the time" to switch over from C#/XNA to C++/DX/OGL since most of the actual knowledge transfers over (protip: syntax and api aren't the hard part about programming :P).



#35 mhagain   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7969

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:20 AM

On the other hand, XNA is/was THE ONLY WAY to port a game over to 360. Smoke that chiba for a minute. I really could care less about XNA framework for PC, but again, there is/was no other way to get your game on 360. Furthermore, I work on a graphics chip that isn't supported by XNA 4.0, therefor not supported by Monogame.

 

If you're working on something now there's no reason why you can't continue.  Microsoft didn't pull a magic switch that instantly made XNA stop working.  XNA still works, they're just not updating it going forward.

 

Seriously, what is wrong with you people?  Major platform reaches end of life and no longer gets updates does not mean that it's now impossible to use that platform.  Shake off the negativity - you can still use XNA.


It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.


#36 unbird   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4977

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:59 AM

Those "Mummy, XNA is dead" threads have occured quite often lately. I suspect this was a flame bait post, the OP was a new poster and his pseudonym is very suspicious.

#37 Promit   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7189

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:00 AM

And despite that you can still create a new Windows Forms app in Visual Studio today, go to References, Add Reference, pick ".NET" and all of the "Microsoft.DirectX" stuff is still available for use.

 

That's a cautionary lesson in the whole "WAAAHH!!!  MICROSOFT KILLED XNA AND NOW I CAN DO NOTHING!!!!" drama.  Despite the fact that Managed DirectX was killed years ago, it is still available for use.  What is it that is causing people to think that the situation would be otherwise with XNA?

I guess I should weigh in. This is, after all, my drama in more ways than one.

 

Microsoft has a long tradition of deprecating but preserving technology. That's an important part of how they run their business and their commitment to it is a large part of what has made an investment in the various Windows technologies safe. Things that worked on Windows X are nearly guaranteed to be fine on Windows X+1, X+2, X+3, even more sometimes. MDX, XNA, SL are all in this category. The trouble is that most of us live in a world where technology moves on and so "will work" is a necessary but not sufficient guarantee for us to run our affairs in a productive way. That's where the split in this thread comes in.

 

Yes, XNA will continue to work and do what it does. That doesn't make it a good idea.

 

D3D 10 arrived, along with the new driver model, in Windows Vista. That was in 2007, six years ago. It's true that D3D 9 has enjoyed a particular level of stability (for various reasons), but it's time to face the music. To commit any serious resources to 9 now are strictly a function of legacy support. XNA cuts it even finer, especially with the introduction of the quirky profiles in 4 which were very, extremely poorly thought out and implemented. (Sorry Shawn.) It's an open question about where you go from there, but it's only a question of where, not if. And frankly it's well past due by now. C#/SlimDX, C#/SharpDX, C#/MonoGame, C++/D3D11, even C++/GL are all productive angles with their own pros and cons.

 

Obviously for indie Xbox there's only two choices: XNA or don't play. I'll leave it at that.

 

More generally speaking, a lot of us are growing irritated with the sheer rate that MS is deprecating, transitioning, or just plain forgetting about some of their newer technologies. That's a much different and longer conversation, but I'll say the same thing I've said before: it's no longer a Microsoft-only world of consumer computing. There's an awful lot of consumer-facing devices that aren't Windows, and that's got serious implications for how developers choose their tech. Somehow I'm not in a hurry to jump on the Metro train.


Edited by Promit, 02 May 2013 - 09:07 AM.


#38 EmployeeNumber8   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1103

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:36 AM

More generally speaking, a lot of us are growing irritated with the sheer rate that MS is deprecating, transitioning, or just plain forgetting about some of their newer technologies. That's a much different and longer conversation, but I'll say the same thing I've said before: it's no longer a Microsoft-only world of consumer computing. There's an awful lot of consumer-facing devices that aren't Windows, and that's got serious implications for how developers choose their tech.

 

Yeah I guess we have to remember that Microsoft is a company, backed by large investors, and they need to answer to these investors. Investors only care about one thing. Making money. I remember back when Bill Gates was CEO, one investor on a conference call asked him to give less to charity, and try and generate more for the investors (or something like that). Microsoft needs to keep us buying products and spending money. So when they "deprecate" products, yeah it sucks, but I kind of understand that is just how it works. They don't just make tech to please us developers... It's a business, they need to be where the money is. 

 

I'm totally with you (Promit) about Metro. I'm disinterested.



#39 VladR   Members   -  Reputation: 722

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:45 AM

Somehow I'm not in a hurry to jump on the Metro train

Heh, I'm glad I'm not the only paranoid one who thinks twice before jumping on yet-another-soon-to-be-killed bandwaggon...

 

Unfortunately, I gotta totally agree also with the rest your Inconvenient Truth ™.


VladR    My 3rd person action RPG on GreenLight:    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92951596

 


#40 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3156

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:35 PM

XNA is mature and not dead, which actually makes developing with it easier than if it were still growing.  Just like in human relationships, mature is better !

 

Monogame is really the way to go, but either way, games made with XNA or Monogame will run for years in people's devices.

 

Enjoy the development environment for years to come, stop complaining, and start making money with games soon! Construction on the doorway has practically stopped, but the Door is still open! 

 

 

Clinton


Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer





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