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Damage types and melee weapon damage calculations for multiple genres. Feedback welcome.


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#1 JustinS   Members   -  Reputation: 159

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:58 AM

This thread is intended to cover damage types in the same system as my previous thread and their advantages, as well as the way melee damage and penetration is calculated. This should cover everything from how a sword is inherently deadlier than a club to how much damage you can expect from melee weapons in general. (Damage is, of course, their primary advantage.)

 

Basic overview:

 

There are four basic categories of damage that should give a basic idea of how each of them works. These are "kinetic," "energy," "chemical" and "miscellaneous." While my previous thread explains how they interact with DR, it didn't provide much insight into any of the damage types contained within. There are four types of kinetic damage, which are "incisive," puncture," "bludgeon" and "concussive." Of these, incisive and concussive each have a damage subtype, which would be "piercing" and "blast," respectively. There are three kinds of energy damage as of the time of writing, which are "exothermic," "endothermic" and "electric." At this moment, there is only one chemical damage type, which is "corrosive." There is also only one miscellaneous damage type, which is "ionizing." Both of these are overdue for expansion.

 

"Bleed" represents rate at which a living target bleeds in the form of yx/minute, where x is the amount of damage dealt. This damage is dealt directly to the target's health, and is the primary cause of death in this system. This value comes before multipliers for shot placement, and almost every part of the body has a multiplier. How long this lasts varies, and without medical attention it is strictly dependent on fortitude. Usually, 5-20 minutes. As a character is usually out cold long before their health reaches 0, and may actually be clinically dead by then, the 0 mark is more a point of no return than anything else as it is rather difficult to save somebody when every drop of their blood is outside of their vein

"Initial health damage" is the portion of the initial damage dealt to the target's health.

"Pain" is the multiplier for the "pain" biological effect for this damage type. This effect is a form of fake damage that serves only to trigger damage thresholds for body parts and reduce the target's will score. (Essentially mental stamina, more important to the AI than the player.)

"Fatigue" is the multiplier for the "fatigue" biological effect for this damage type. This is also fake damage, but it does not trigger damage thresholds and instead reduces their attributes.

"Primary effect" is the special effect of that damage type that always functions but is impacted by DR. (Separately from the damage itself, making it possible for this to function when DR completely blocks out damage.)

"Consistent effect" is the special effect of that damage type that always functions and is not impacted by DR.

"Chanced effect" is the special effect of that damage type that has a chance to function, and both its chance and magnitude are impacted by DR.

 

Incisive:

 

Incisive damage is damage dealt by sharp objects such as swords and arrows, and is a form of penetrative trauma. Basic incisive damage is a form of shearing, and is impacted neither by the strength of the target nor its elasticity. Only the hardness of a target protects it from being cut. In game, basic incisive damage is the deadliest damage type to living creatures as a factor of the wound's shape. The wide, jagged, open wound is more difficult to clog and bleeds faster. Whether you're gutting an enemy combatant or lopping the head off a malcontent, no damage type kills faster than incisive damage. Piercing subtype damage has an additional effect (conveniently called "piercing") but causes less bleeding.

 

Bleed: 1x/minute, 0.5x if piercing

Initial health damage: 0.5x

Pain: 10x, 2x if piercing

Fatigue: 1x, regardless

Primary effect: If piercing and the weapon does not overpenetrate, it becomes lodged in the target and deals regular incisive damage every time the targeted body part fatigues itself for 0.01x*f. This continues until the object is removed (automatic if melee) when it deals an additional 0.1x incisive damage to the target. 

Chanced effect: If normal, 0.1x % chance of causing brief additional bleed equal to 1x/6s for 10% of basic bleed time.

Special: This damage type has a "sharpness" effect, which divides DD but does not impact DR. If piercing, it also has a "piercing" effect that divides DR but does not impact DD.

 

Puncture:

 

Puncture damage is the damage type dealt by blunt penetrators, such as bullets. Puncture damage is a concentrated form of laceration, and is different from piercing in that the penetrating object has no edge to help it pass through a target. This damage type is all-around lacklustre, and is my least favourite kinetic damage type. However, it is also extremely common because it is easy to deliver at a long distance and range is more important in combat than lethality.

 

Bleed: 0.5x/minute

Initial health damage: 0.5x

Pain: 2x

Fatigue: 1x

Primary effect: If the weapon does not overpenetrate it becomes lodged in the target and deals bludgeon damage every time the targeted body part fatigues itself for 0.01*f. This continues until the object is removed (automatic if melee) when it deals an additional 0.1x bludgeon damage to the target.

 

Bludgeon:

 

Bludgeon damage is the damage type dealt by solid blunt objects such as clubs and fists, based on their momentum. It takes the form of laceration, fractures, ruptures, crushing and deformation. This damage type is much less lethal than other damage types, but is the most reliable of all damage types and is effective against armour in a way no other damage type is. Anything, and I mean anything, can be destroyed if you just hit it hard enough.

 

Bleed: 0.2x/minute

Initial health damage: 0.5x

Pain: 5x

Fatigue: 2x

Primary effect: Target absorbs momentum upon being struck, equal to x(z/y+z), where x is the momentum of the striking object, y is the striking object's mass and z is the struck object's mass. If a weapon hits multiple targets at once (such as a person and their armour) then they are treated as one object for the purposes of transferring momentum.

Chanced effect: 0.01x% chance of dealing double damage. (EDIT: Double limb damage, not double damage. Does not impact bleed or placement mods at all.)

 

Concussive:

 

Concussive damage is the damage dealt by transfer of kinetic energy through any medium, be it a solid object or a pressure wave. It takes the form of ruptures, laceration and deformation. It also covers the "blast" subtype, which is specific to pressure waves. This is overall the worst damage type as it is less lethal than any other kinetic damage type and it has no special effects.

 

Bleed: 0.2x/minute

Initial health damage: 0.5x

Pain: 2x

Fatigue: 5x

No special effects.

 

Exothermic:

 

Exothermic damage is caused by exothermic reactions and heat. It is the most reliable energy damage type, the deadliest and the best against armour, as it has no upper limit (not even a soft limit) on the rate at which it can deal damage or how much penetration it can have. "When in doubt, set something on fire." It's also a personal favourite of mine, as I'm more than a bit of a pyro.

 

Bleed: 0.1x/minute

Initial health damage: 1x

Pain: 10x

Fatigue: 5x

Primary effect: Damages the hydration meter by 10x, which impairs the target if done in sufficient quantity.

Consistent effect: Increases the temperature of the target (this is used for ambient damage) by 10x/y, where y is the target's mass in kilograms.

Chanced effect: 0.01x% chance to set the target on fire (0.1x% chance if an open flame, 1x% if an incendiary material) for 0.1x/0.6s, which decreases by the target's DR every 6s until it reaches 0. The temperature of this fire decreases in proportion to this.

Special: If dealt by matter, it has a "temperature" value that divides DR but does not impact DD.

 

Endothermic:

 

The polar opposite of exothermic damage, caused by endothermic reactions and cold. It is a common environmental damage type, but rare as an offensive weapon because it is terrible at actually killing a target and most of the time only slows them down. It's only used as a weapon in the fantasy, and even there it is primarily defensive.

 

Bleed: 0.01x/minute

Initial health damage: 0.1x

Pain: 0.1x

Fatigue: 1x

Primary effect: Inflicts additional fatigue damage equal to 0.01x/0.6s and additional stamina damage equal to 0.1x/0.6s for 60s.

Consistent effect: Decreases the temperature of the target by 10x/y, where y is the target's mass in kilograms.

Chanced effect: 0.1x% chance to freeze the target (1x% if caused by a freezing liquid) for bludgeon and cold equal to 0.01x/0.6s each, which decreases by the target's temperature (+300) every 6s until it is 0.

Special: Has a "temperature" value that divides DR but does not impact DD.

 

Electric:

 

Damage caused by the flow of electrons through a target. Generally a fairly weak form of damage that operates out of a pool and has a great deal of penetration, but it has good special effects and causes thermal and concussive damage automatically. Its lack of magnitude is more than made up for by the extra damage types and special effects, making it a good damage type overall.

 

Bleed: 0.1x/minute

Initial health damage: 1x

Pain: 1x

Fatigue: 10x

Primary effect: Inflicts additional stamina and will damage, and increases the breath meter (increases stamina usage) by its value.

Consistent effect: Causes impairment to the target equal to its value. (Effectively just fake damage to a body part that only impacts attributes. Only distinct from fatigue in that it heals much faster.)

Special: Has a "current" value that divides DR but does not impact DD. Deals additional thermal damage to the target equal to the amount of electric energy deposited into the target, and concussive damage of one tenth this value.

 

Ionization/curse:

 

Damage caused by ionizing radiation in most settings and curses in the fantasy setting. (Same difference.) This damage is dangerous mostly to living creatures as it causes very little physical damage and is mostly just sickening. It can kill a target very easily over time, and effects of exposure are not always immediately obvious. Death from the resultant sickness (ARS) might take days or weeks, and as a result this damage type is more subtle and spiteful than any other. Usually accompanied with exothermic and concussive damage, which are much more obvious and usually draw a medic's attention away from the more subtle sickness and makes the illness even deadlier. However, its raw damage is too low for it to be of any use against non-living targets.

 

Bleed: 0.1x/minute

Initial health damage: 0.1x

Pain: 5x

Fatigue: 5x

Consistent effect: Increases the Gray meter by x*10-7/0.6s for 60000s.

Chanced effect: 0.01x% chance to cause nausea (reduced dexterity, sense and resolve) for 0.01x for 6x seconds.

 

Corrosive:

 

Corrosive damage is caused by caustic chemicals such as acid, and is (in proportion to its generally limited physical damage) the most agonizing damage type in existence and often the best at stopping living creatures. It also happens to be consistently toxic, another thing that makes it oddly effective when its damage is usually too low to matter. That said, the lack of raw damage makes it ineffective against targets that are immune to some or all of its special effects.

 

Bleed: 0.1x/minute

Initial health damage: 0.1x

Pain: 10x

Fatigue: 10x

Primary effect: Also inflicts 10x its value to the target's stamina, willpower and all needs.

Chanced effect: 0.1x% chance if a gas and 1x% chance if a liquid of adhering to the target and dealing 0.01x/0.6s for 0.6x seconds.

Special: All corrosive chemicals are toxic as well, and corrosive damage bleeds ten times as long as is standard.


Edited by Jeremy Williams, 11 May 2013 - 05:15 PM.

No man is an island,

Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; 
It tolls for thee.

 

-John Donne


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#2 JustinS   Members   -  Reputation: 159

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 04:12 PM

There are three melee damage formulas. These are "conventional," "conventional, thrusting" and "unconventional."

 

Terms:

Dice: The weapon's damage dice, which are rolled for each attack. This is always labelled in the xDy format, where x is the number of dice and y is the size of the dice.

Die: One of the weapon's damage dice.

MaxDice: The maximum of the weapon's damage dice.

MaxDie: The maximum of one of the weapon's damage dice.

ES: Effective strength, the amount of strength used in the attack. This is just upper body strength multiplied by an adrenal multiplier for normal attacks, but power attacks use upper and lower body strength. When wielding a weapon with both hands, ES is multiplied by 1.5.

√ES: The square root of effective strength.

SC: The size class of the weapon in question. Human-sized weapons would normally be SC 8-12, with 10 being standard.

 

Conventional damage formula: (normal)

Weapon damage=Die*√ES*SC*10

Penetration=Die*√ES*0.05

Base damage=Die*ES*10

Weapon damage type is determined by the weapon, but base damage is always concussive.

 

Conventional damage formula: (power)

Weapon damage=Dice*√ES*SC*10

Penetration=Dice*√ES*0.05

Base damage=Dice*ES*10

This formula uses the sum of upper and lower body strength when calculating effective strength.

 

Thrusting damage formula: (normal)

Weapon damage=MaxDie*SC*10

Penetration=Dice*√ES*0.1

Base damage=Die*ES*10

 

Thrusting damage formula: (power)

Weapon damage=MaxDie*SC*10

Penetration=MaxDice*√ES*0.1

Base damage=MaxDie*ES*0.1

Notably the only melee formula with no random element to it.

 

Unconventional damage formula: (normal)

Weapon damage=Dice*SC*10

Penetration=0.1(Die+√ES)

Base damage=Die*ES*10

 

Unconventional damage formula: (power)

Weapon damage=Dice*SC*10

Penetration=0.1(Die+√ES)

Base damage=Dice*ES*10

 

There is skill present in game and it is important, but it does not directly impact the damage of weapons. Instead, you have a minimum to your rolls equal to half your skill. For instance, a skill of 20 would mean if you rolled less than 10% of your maximum (including maximum) it would count as 10% of your maximum, while a skill of 50 would do the same but with 25%. For instance, on a roll of 1d10 the maximum is obviously 10, so with 50 skill any roll of 1 or 2 would be counted as 2.5. On 1d10+2, the maximum is 12 and with 50 skill any roll of 1 or 2 would be counted as 3. As skills can (with an optimized build and an insane amount of effort) go up to 200, this means you can make it so your attacks always do maximum damage and get maximum penetration.

 

Examples:

 

All of these weapons are SC 10 and are being used by a character with base stats (10 in everything) at normal combat strength (0.5 adrenal multiplier) and assume an average roll. I'm going to use a trio of swords, one axe, one crowbar, one switchblade, one combat knife and a fist.

 

Normal, swinging:

 

Sabre:* (2d8, +2 modifier to penetration dice when thrusting)

 

WD. 1d8=~4.5, 4.5*2.24*100=1008 incisive.

P. 1d8=~4.5, 4.5*2.24*0.05=~0.5 penetration.

BD. 1d8=~4.5, 5*10=50, ~4.5*50=~225 concussive.

Total damage ~1233, with a penetration of ~0.5.

 

Long sword:** (2d8, +2 modifier to penetration dice when swinging, +2 modifier to damage dice when thrusting)

 

WD. Same as above, ~1008 incisive.

P. 1d8+2=~6.5, ~6.5*2.24*0.05=~0.73 penetration.

BD. Same as above, ~225 concussive.

Total damage ~1233, with a penetration of ~0.73.

 

Katana:*** (2d8, +2 modifier to damage dice when swinging, +2 modifier to penetration dice when thrusting)

 

WD. ~6.5*2.24*100=1456 incisive.

P. Same as the sabre, ~0.5 penetration.

BD. Same as above, ~225 concussive.

Total damage ~1681, with a penetration of ~0.5.

 

Hatchet:**** (1d4, +2 modifier to penetration and damage dice. Cannot thrust, alternate attack is a bash.)

 

WD. 1d4+2=~4.5, 4.5*2.24*100=~1008 piercing.

P. 1d4+2=~4.5, 4.5*2.24*0.05~0.5 penetration.

BD. 1d4=~2.5, 2.5*50=125 concussive.

Total damage ~1133, with a penetration of ~0.5.

 

Crowbar:***** (3d4, +2 modifier to penetration, damage dice and base damage dice. Cannot thrust, alternate attack is a swing attempting to hook.)

 

WD. Same as above, ~1008 bludgeon.

P. Same as above, ~0.5 penetration.

BD. ~4.5*50=~225 concussive.

Total damage ~1233, with a penetration of ~0.5.

 

Switchblade:****** (2d1, +1 modifier to penetration when thrusting.)

 

WD. 1*2.24*100=~224 incisive.

P. 1*2.24*0.05=~0.11 penetration.

BD. 1*50=~50 concussive.

Total damage ~274, with ~0.11 penetration.

 

Combat knife:******* (2d3, +1 modifier to penetration when swinging, +1 modifier to damage when thrusting.)

 

WD. 1d3=~2. ~2*2.24*100=~448 incisive.

P. 1d3+1=~3. ~3*2.24*0.05=~0.34 penetration.

BD. ~2*50=~100 concussive.

Total damage ~548, with ~0.34 penetration.

 

Normal, thrusting:

 

Sabre:

 

WD. 8*10*10=800 piercing.

P. 2d8+2=~11, ~11*2.24*0.1=~2.46 penetration.

BD. ~4.5*50=~225 concussive.

Total damage ~1025, with ~2.46 penetration.

 

Long sword:

 

WD. 10*100=1000 piercing.

P. 2d8=~9, ~9*2.24*0.1=~2.02 penetration.

BD. ~4.5*50=~225 concussive.

Total damage ~1225, with ~2.02 penetration.

 

Katana:

WD. ~800 piercing, same as the sabre.

P. ~2.46 penetration, same as the sabre.

BD. ~225 concussive, same as both the sabre and long sword.

Total damage ~1025, with ~2.46 penetration.

 

Switchblade:

 

WD. 1*100=100 piercing.

P. 2d1+1=3, 3*2.24*0.1=~0.67 penetration.

BD. ~1*50=~50 concussive.

Total damage ~150, with ~0.67 penetration penetration.

 

Combat knife:

 

WD. 3=1=4, 4*100=400 piercing.

P.2d3=~4, ~4*2.24*0.1=~0.9 penetration.

BD. ~2*50=~100 concussive.

Total damage ~500, with ~0.9 penetration.

 

Fist:******** (1d4.)

 

WD. 4=4, ~4*10*10=400 bludgeon.

P. ~2.5*2.24*0.1=~0.56 penetration.

BD. ~2.5*50=~125 concussive.

Total damage ~525, with ~0.56 penetration.

 

*This sabre is a modern design for practical usage, and is relatively cheap. It cost ~70 USD, and is of decent quality by the standards of late industrial age weapons. These weapons are carried by NCOs in the USMC and are also common in the US Army. Most commissioned officers carry higher quality swords.

**This long sword is a modern design for practical usage, and is relatively cheap. It cost ~50 EUR, and is of intermediate quality by the standards of medieval weapons. These weapons are carried by NCOs in the 3WU, and are also common amongst shock troopers. Most commissioned officers carry higher quality swords.

***This katana is a cheap modern design for practical usage, and is relatively cheap. It cost ~15 ARD, which is ~75 USD, and has a relatively low quality blade by the standards of nihonto. These weapons are carried by adult NCOs in the ECUS, and are also common in the ARMC. Most commissioned officers carry higher quality swords.

****This axe is a modern military hatchet designed to be used primarily as a tool. This exact axe is issued to some front-line soldiers in the US Army, where it fills its intended purpose without taking up much space. More relevant to the army's interests, it only costs ~20 USD.

*****This crowbar is a simple wrought iron tool designed for opening crates and performing light demolition work. It is a favourite weapon of engineers and vehicle crewmen the world over as it is relatively compact and yet very powerful in combat, and has many practical uses. Since it is made of relatively cheap metal, it is also cheap to produce, costing ~5 ARD, ~25 USD or ~20 EUR.

******This is a common 15cm switchblade, with a single full edge, partial edge on the reverse side, fine point, a button-activated spring and a push lock. (Old Italian design, almost like a dagger.) These are extremely common concealed weapons amongst civilians in the UK and to a lesser extent the US, as they are very compact and easy to carry yet perform well in combat and as tools. They're also cheap, with this one costing ~10 EUR or ~13 USD.

*******This is a common 18cm combat knife, with a single full edge, curved partial edge on the reverse side and a fixed blade. To be a bit more specific, this knife is a Ka-Bar. As in the real world, it is the chief combat knife of the USMC. This exact model cost ~15 USD in 2015.

********Just the default, Mk. I fist. Nothing special about it, nothing interesting either.

 

I feel drained of patience right now and don't feel like doing power attacks at this moment. If you'd like me to do examples of power attacks with these weapons, or if you'd like to add any specific weapon types to this list, let me know and I'll do it later tonight.

 

EDIT:
As I did this while sleep deprived, I made a lot of errors. I replaced "medium knife" with "switchblade" but didn't alter the stats and I used a single die instead of all available dice for thrusting weapons. I even noticed the fist had as much penetration as the others (which it shouldn't) and instead of realizing this meant I did something wrong, I made an adjustment that I didn't need to make. I've just fixed all these things.


No man is an island,

Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; 
It tolls for thee.

 

-John Donne


#3 LorenzoGatti   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2702

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:26 AM

  • Bleeding cannot depend on damage type only; target type (e.g. a person vs. a robot with electric actuators) and wound location (e.g. flesh vs major blood vessels vs bones) are two equally important factors. Bleeding could also depend non-linearly on damage amount (in the case of people, small and superficial cuts stop bleeding much faster).
  • Likewise, pain makes serious assumptions about target type and hit location.
  • Do you really need formal damage types like Concussive, Bludgeon, Puncture, Incisive if you already have stats which are both more meaningful and more general? Some attacks could use the same standard formulas with different numbers, for example an almost "incisive/piercing" blade with vicious barbs could be rated 4x pain rather than 2x pain. Vague names are likely to have no use for players.

Produci, consuma, crepa

#4 JustinS   Members   -  Reputation: 159

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:18 AM

  • Bleeding cannot depend on damage type only; target type (e.g. a person vs. a robot with electric actuators) and wound location (e.g. flesh vs major blood vessels vs bones) are two equally important factors. Bleeding could also depend non-linearly on damage amount (in the case of people, small and superficial cuts stop bleeding much faster).

I already addressed this in the original post. Further, bleeding does reduce on its own within this system as a factor of fortitude, so wounds that inflict less bleed (such as those that do not meet the minimum penetration requirement to get bonuses for hitting a vital) will stop bleeding faster and with targets that have more fortitude this will happen faster. This is in addition to fortitude also shortening the hard bleed duration, of course.

EDIT: If it has a health score, it bleeds. If it doesn't bleed, that means it doesn't have a health score. Machines and such do not have health, instead only having part integrity. Disabling them is done by breaking parts of them, (engine kill, crew/computer/control kill, mobility kill, so on) and "destroying" them is done by damaging or destroying enough of them that none of them functions anymore. (Catastrophic kill.)

  • Likewise, pain makes serious assumptions about target type and hit location.

I didn't mention it, but the above also applies here. And also for fatigue, initial health damage, and basically everything else.

  • Do you really need formal damage types like Concussive, Bludgeon, Puncture, Incisive if you already have stats which are both more meaningful and more general? Some attacks could use the same standard formulas with different numbers, for example an almost "incisive/piercing" blade with vicious barbs could be rated 4x pain rather than 2x pain. Vague names are likely to have no use for players.

Yes, yes I do. The formal damage types are not only easily memorable categories that help the player figure out how a weapon works, they're also the basis of all resistances as the resistances themselves are separated by damage type. Not only this, but many feats, perks and even traits within the system use the damage types to categorize their effects.

Also, your specific example doesn't support your position. While a barbed blade would be more painful, it would only be so because it causes more damage than a regular blade. Its only defining feature are its "vicious" barbs that serve to hook into flesh and tear it as the blade passes through. This means it is dealing more damage, not causing more pain in proportion to damage.

No man is an island,

Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; 
It tolls for thee.

 

-John Donne


#5 overactor   Members   -  Reputation: 198

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:00 AM

I don't think there is something wrong with this damage system persé.

Although I'm not entirely sure about some of the formulas, the chanced effects being linearly dependent on the damage seems a bit weird in my mind (since it can technically go over 100%) and I agree with Lorenzo that the bleeding and a lot of different stats should also depend on where exactly the target gets hit.

I feel like you've put some decent thought into this however and will not go deeper into it as I'm far from an expert on this. (Maybe you'd be best taking this to a physics professor or so?)

 

I do still wonder how this will come across to the player though. Can you give an example of what you expect the player to read before understanding to a sufficient level how the damage system works? Also, what can the player actually learn by simply playing the game?


"You can't just turn on creativity like a faucet. You have to be in the right mood."

"What mood is that?"

"Last-minute panic."


#6 JustinS   Members   -  Reputation: 159

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:10 AM

I don't think there is something wrong with this damage system persé.

Although I'm not entirely sure about some of the formulas, the chanced effects being linearly dependent on the damage seems a bit weird in my mind (since it can technically go over 100%) and I agree with Lorenzo that the bleeding and a lot of different stats should also depend on where exactly the target gets hit.

I already addressed this in the original post. It's already dependent on shot placement. You don't need to tell somebody to do something they already said they were doing. As for the percentage chances, there's a good reason to go over 100: Effect chance and magnitude are both reduced by DR. This means you'll need to get a higher chance to ensure the effect occurs against significant DR.

I feel like you've put some decent thought into this however and will not go deeper into it as I'm far from an expert on this. (Maybe you'd be best taking this to a physics professor or so?)

 

I do still wonder how this will come across to the player though. Can you give an example of what you expect the player to read before understanding to a sufficient level how the damage system works? Also, what can the player actually learn by simply playing the game?

It depends on a lot. Just like how I explained the armour's conveyance in game, the player's information about their weapon is dependent on their skills. (Either crafting or the relevant weapon skill will do.) For example, a player in the near future setting is examining a rapier in a shop in Europa. They have the basic description of the weapon provided in the dialogue window, if they have a certain amount of skill they can determine sharpness, condition and material modifiers. A certain amount further can determine the item's age, craftsmanship. Beyond this, the dice and modifiers. Further beyond, a projection of the weapon's damage and penetration with its primary and secondary attacks. As of now, these values are 25, 50, 75 and 100. (They've always seemed like good values to me, but maybe I just play The Elder Scrolls too much.) So following through with the rapier:

 

Basic description, 0 skill:

 

Wrought Iron Rapier:

A sword with a thin, single-edged blade roughly one metre long. It comes to a fine point and is ideal for piercing armour, but lacks the breadth of a short sword and isn't as effective against unarmoured opponents because of it. As a slashing weapon it is light with long reach, but doesn't tend to cut as deep as the thicker short sword. This particular rapier sports a pappenheimer hilt and appears to be crafted out of simple, wrought iron.

Weight: 1kg

Reach: 1m

Size: 10

 

;At the point, the player should be able to gather that the blade is pretty long (between that and the image) and that it will get good penetration stabbing but not slashing. They should also gather that it won't do especially high damage either way, and with weapons "light" implies "fast." Further, if they look at the pappenheimer hilt they should be able to gather it is a decent defensive weapon (hilt type does matter to that) and they should know that wrought iron is not a good material for swords.

 

Quality overview, 25 skill:

 

This rapier appears to be very well sharpened and comes to a fine point. It is undamaged and made primarily of wrought iron.

Sharpness: 2 (for your benefit, 1 is normal)

Piercing: 3 (for your benefit, 2 is normal for a rapier and 1 is normal for a short sword)

Condition: 100%

Material: -1

 

;From this, the player can gather that the weapon is quite sharp and pierces well, so it should do well against enemies with armour. Further, the material penalty should grab their eye as the weapon's Achilles heel. They won't know what the -1 really means yet, but they should know it means something. Since it's sharp and has high piercing anyway, that really just leaves damage and penetration, so I think they'll figure it out fine and if not they aren't thinking about it and that's not my problem.

 

Quality details, 50 skill:

 

This sword is brand new and of average craftsmanship.

Age: +0

Craftsmanship: +0

 

;From this, they'll gather nothing really major. It's new and they didn't fuck it up, so there's no nasty little surprises due to them.

 

Effect overview, 75 skill:

Dice: 2d6

Primary slashing damage: -1

Secondary piercing damage: +0

Primary penetration: -1

Secondary penetration: +1

Primary speed: 1.1

Secondary speed: 1.0

 

;From this, they know the weapon uses d6 dice. This won't do them much good by itself unless they have something to compare it to, but nothing ever does. They will know it gets sub-par penetration and damage slashing, and that it gets above-par penetration with average damage thrusting. They'll also know it's 10% faster than normal when slashing, which is a plus. This info right here is pretty good.

 

Effect details, 100 skill: (I'm going to assume base stats and the game assumes combat strength.)

Primary slashing damage: (1d6-1)*224

Primary concussive damage: 1d6*50

Primary penetration: (1d6-1)*0.112

Primary attack rate: 5.41/round

Primary power slashing damage: (2d6-1)*316

Primary power concussive damage: 2d6*100

Primary power penetration: (2d6-1)*0.158

Primary power attack rate: 2.71/round

Secondary piercing damage: 600

Secondary concussive damage: 1d6*50

Secondary penetration: (2d6-1)*0.224

Secondary attack rate: 4.92/round

Secondary power piercing damage: 600

Secondary power concussive damage: 1200

Secondary power penetration: 3.48

Secondary power attack rate: 2.46/round

 

;From this, the player should be able to gather that regular slashing attacks don't deal much damage or get much penetration with this weapon and it's important to power attack when using slashes. The weapon's piercing penetration is high enough that power attacks shouldn't be necessary, but if they are it's still a great penetrator. Also, the display penetration goes down to thousandths, but actual penetration only goes to hundredths. The reason for this is because the dice aren't entered in yet and if it showed as rounded before the dice were multiplied on it'd skew the results. Also, "round" is a unit of time equal to six seconds that I decided to adopt as a reasonable base unit because it was 1/10th of a minute and that works better with a system based on minutes.

 

As for what the player can learn from gameplay, they can get a general idea of what kind of weapon does what, what the information they are presented actually means and what the most effective tactics are. And of course, as they use a weapon type their skill increases and should give them better insight into their weapons of that type in the future. And since they have to use it to gain skill in the first place, they'll have experience to better understand the numbers once they are provided them.


No man is an island,

Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; 
It tolls for thee.

 

-John Donne


#7 MichaelNIII   Members   -  Reputation: 195

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:06 AM

Don't be so rude to people not following your first post perfectly - your asking for help and advice, not the other way around. Also they more they likely did understand what you wrote, as you said it would be dependant on shot placement, out - what is "shot placement" is it bone based? Does each bone also have a map of vital organ and blood vessle placement attached to it (see THAT'S what they ment, cause 99% of the time shot placement is just head, chest, arms, legs)? I feel when you actually go to impliment this - there comments will be much more helpful then your thinking. if a machine doesn't have hp, how do you intend to damage a part of it. Without recoding an hp for each part. Is it really logical to have a whole new monster class for non-organic life? Also it does matterif your users can tell how strong weapons are - who wants to have to run all the way back to noob monsters to make sure there new weapon can produce as much or more dps then their current weapon? I think this method would be enjoyable, however I do ask - try and read what people say without getting upset that you feel you completely covered it in your first post. Even if where not the most apparently worthy of helping you out - this is one of the few game development forums and the people trying to help are actually one of a few dozen people with knowlege willing to freely give there time to help you achieve your goals.

#8 MichaelNIII   Members   -  Reputation: 195

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:25 AM

On a much more honest statement, I can barely follow this, it seems like the rules for damaging something might actually lag down your game as it tries to figure out how much damage you just dealt. I LOVE complex game systems because they are much more satifying to defeat, that being said - if it is so complex that you end up accidently leaving ovbiously exploits (not that I seen any but your adding more data as you post, such as this hilt type and I may find a division by 0 flaw if you keep it up) that's no fun. Also - don't use xy and z in your math formulas if they have no bearing to the letters it just makes things harder to understand... and you had to explain it right afterwards. I do hope my posts helped (I has no edit button) and I wish you the best of luck in attempting to impliment this into a real. Game, and if done correctly - could see myself buying a very well written copy of a damage calculator for the game I'm writing (as this would actually mesh insanely well with my game), however - very well written and easy and worthwhile to impliment and modify are inportant.


Now way off tangent. If your curious - I actually intend on writing what your talking about as well - very similar with the damage, impact type, positional damage, user skill. And when I get around to it (think 1 year+) I will check to see if you completed this and maybe seek your help on what you found overly difficult to impliment about this system if you wouldn't mind.

#9 JustinS   Members   -  Reputation: 159

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:49 AM

Don't be so rude to people not following your first post perfectly - your asking for help and advice, not the other way around. Also they more they likely did understand what you wrote, as you said it would be dependant on shot placement, out - what is "shot placement" is it bone based? Does each bone also have a map of vital organ and blood vessle placement attached to it (see THAT'S what they ment, cause 99% of the time shot placement is just head, chest, arms, legs)?

There are ten parts with part integrity scores (basically "limb health") and on each of them there are at least two mapped locations that inflict different special effects as damage is inflicted on them. So, for instance, if you're shooting somebody in the abdomen you have the base effects and multipliers in this area, and if you hit a kidney you'll get those effects and multipliers stacked on top of those. Although that said, most of the time you need a certain penetration factor (which is just penetration/damage division) to get a certain effect. For instance, you can't damage the heart at all without a PF of 0.4 or higher.

 

The ten parts are the "head" which includes the brain and upper skull, the "face" which includes the face and neck, the "chest" which is pretty self explanatory, the heart within it, the abdomen, the pelvis, the two arms and the two legs.

I feel when you actually go to impliment this - there comments will be much more helpful then your thinking. if a machine doesn't have hp, how do you intend to damage a part of it. Without recoding an hp for each part. Is it really logical to have a whole new monster class for non-organic life?

Vehicles still have part integrity, just not a base health score. Each part of a vehicle has integrity and damaging parts will impair it even if the part isn't completely destroyed. It's not too terribly hard to work with as long as your weapon can damage them.

Also it does matterif your users can tell how strong weapons are - who wants to have to run all the way back to noob monsters to make sure there new weapon can produce as much or more dps then their current weapon?

They should be able to guess simple things just fine. "My old rapier was only cast iron (not likely, actually) and this new sword is wrought iron, so this new rapier should be better overall." If that's all they care about, that's fine. Beyond that, the new info they get as they level and their character gets more of a sense for their weapon of choice

I think this method would be enjoyable, however I do ask - try and read what people say without getting upset that you feel you completely covered it in your first post. Even if where not the most apparently worthy of helping you out - this is one of the few game development forums and the people trying to help are actually one of a few dozen people with knowlege willing to freely give there time to help you achieve your goals.

You're putting words in my mouth. Also, please use spell check.


No man is an island,

Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; 
It tolls for thee.

 

-John Donne


#10 JustinS   Members   -  Reputation: 159

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:08 AM

On a much more honest statement, I can barely follow this, it seems like the rules for damaging something might actually lag down your game as it tries to figure out how much damage you just dealt. I LOVE complex game systems because they are much more satifying to defeat, that being said - if it is so complex that you end up accidently leaving ovbiously exploits (not that I seen any but your adding more data as you post, such as this hilt type and I may find a division by 0 flaw if you keep it up) that's no fun.

The calculations are pretty simple once you get used to it. It's just a die roll and a multiplier. The armour system is a bit more complex (that's what penetration is for) but it's still nothing that a computer can't handle. Most of the resource requirement (to the best of my knowledge) of any given game is in the graphics and special effects, and I plan to keep both of those relatively simple. (A bit stylised to cover up the lower resolution, of course.) The hilt only impacts the weapon's hitbox. (For instance, the pappenheimer hilt just protects the user's hand better because its shape covers the top of the hand.) And as there is only one time division enters the system and it's always a positive number, division by 0 will never occur within this ruleset.

Also - don't use xy and z in your math formulas if they have no bearing to the letters it just makes things harder to understand... and you had to explain it right afterwards. I do hope my posts helped (I has no edit button) and I wish you the best of luck in attempting to impliment this into a real. Game, and if done correctly - could see myself buying a very well written copy of a damage calculator for the game I'm writing (as this would actually mesh insanely well with my game), however - very well written and easy and worthwhile to impliment and modify are inportant.

Now way off tangent. If your curious - I actually intend on writing what your talking about as well - very similar with the damage, impact type, positional damage, user skill. And when I get around to it (think 1 year+) I will check to see if you completed this and maybe seek your help on what you found overly difficult to impliment about this system if you wouldn't mind.

The terms are there representing in-game actor values, and I abbreviated them as much as I could without creating ambiguity. Also, my game system is far on the "simulation" end of the spectrum and a great deal more so than any game I have ever seen to date. If your game idea is as well, that's fine and we can work something out. (Probably a small share.) If not, than it'd be better to adopt a different system because this one will not work for casual games.

 

And in the future, please use spell check.


No man is an island,

Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; 
It tolls for thee.

 

-John Donne


#11 MichaelNIII   Members   -  Reputation: 195

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:18 PM

Pleae sptop referencing my spelling - I am on a phone and this site doesn't conform to my android browser well to the extent of - I can not see what I am writing - and type at the same time. This is insanely difficult to try and do. Also judging by what your saying you don't actually have anything yet - sooo... oh well I'm done here I said what I needed and you think you got it all figured out and can't just accept any answer as truth. As I clearly state in the quote you quote - I don't see any division by 0 errors - however that is not the only error like that, that can happen due to the complexity of the code. I guess the one thing that I didn't mention was that if you wanted to make this game an mmo - bet you either you will need a million doller server to double check all the math - or it would be insanely easy to hack.

#12 JustinS   Members   -  Reputation: 159

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:19 PM

Pleae sptop referencing my spelling - I am on a phone and this site doesn't conform to my android browser well to the extent of - I can not see what I am writing - and type at the same time. This is insanely difficult to try and do.

I had no way of knowing that. All I know is there are a lot of obvious errors, like "sptop." It makes your post very hard to read. My comment was not intended as a personal attack, calm the fuck down.

Also judging by what your saying you don't actually have anything yet - sooo... oh well I'm done here I said what I needed and you think you got it all figured out and can't just accept any answer as truth.

I think I'll just attribute that direct insult to stress and not hold it against you.

As I clearly state in the quote you quote - I don't see any division by 0 errors - however that is not the only error like that, that can happen due to the complexity of the code.

I am aware of this, and I am building this system to prevent errors like that. If something like that does happen, it's a coding error. Coding errors are not the result of the ruleset itself, and although they may well be my responsibility there's not much I can do now about errors I probably won't be making for at least a year.

I guess the one thing that I didn't mention was that if you wanted to make this game an mmo - bet you either you will need a million doller server to double check all the math - or it would be insanely easy to hack.

MMO? I'm a college student, not a corporate executive; an MMO is more than a bit out of my reach. I'm not certain this game will have multiplayer at all. Actually, at this point I'm pretty certain it won't. Multiplayer would just be another huge pain in the ass for myself and everyone involved and would provide no real reward for us or the players.


No man is an island,

Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; 
It tolls for thee.

 

-John Donne





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