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Making a 2d side-scrolling MMORPG like "MapleStory"


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#1 khaledsh   Members   -  Reputation: 102

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:18 PM

hello world smile.png

 

well lets get straight into this, I have a dream of making a 2d side-scrolling MMORPG that is simmiler to "MapleStory" (but it will be a local game that is playable in one country.)
The storyline and game design document are ready. I know that implementation is super hard but im ready to do whatever it takes to make  those words become alive.

 

so can someone please answer me these questions:

 

-what should I do now and how many team members will I need? I already know alot of people in my university who are interested and have some skills in programming, designing, and soundtracks.

 

-what software should we start with? for each one of us (programmers, designers,etc...)

 

-how can we make the game local (works only in one country)

 

-how can we host the game and connect players with each other (there will be a maximum of approximately 5k players)?

 

I know that its a long way to go, but as I said, IM READY FOR ANYTHING!


please dont waste your time telling me that its really hard to get that done, because I know that already =)

and sry for my bad english biggrin.png

 

 

 



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#2 GameGeazer   Members   -  Reputation: 733

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:39 AM

I started writing games with the same I CAN DO IT NOT MATTER WHAT attitude as you haha. The fact is you are not ready for anything. If you don't know where to start and mmorpg you are not ready to start an mmorpg. What you could do is make a mario clone, and build up from there. Learn the fundamentals: rendering, collision, audio, dialog boxes, combat, ect. Build your game as a single player game and then figure out how to network it later. SFML 2.0 is wonderful you should check it out. It has modules for Rendering, Audio, Network, input, everything you could possibly want as a starting developer. 

 

I'm not telling you it's REALLY HARD to get done, I'm telling you its near IMPOSSIBLE if you haven't started with the basics. If you cannot make a single player game, you most certainty cannot make a mmorpg! I learned the hard way by ignoring everyones advice and wasting all of high school not finishing projects. 

 

Start with a kick-ass single player game; make the sequel multiplayer!


Edited by GameGeazer, 08 May 2013 - 09:48 AM.


#3 nhatkthanh   Members   -  Reputation: 334

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:16 AM

Let me sumarize it this way:

 

difficulty, cost and resource for making single player game = 1

multi player game of similar calibur with added multiplayer = 10

mmo = 100



#4 KnolanCross   Members   -  Reputation: 1208

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:44 AM

Depends, are you going for paid or free software? Desktop or mobile? In house solutions or market solutions?

 

For your developers you will need an engine, there are several good ones on the market. If you want the game to be mobile (which I don't really recommend, MMO and mobile don't really blend well), there are few free ones, but they are mostly limited (specially in the network part). My favorite is ORX, because it is C based, but AFAIK the most popular one is CoCos 2d. If you are willing to pay, a lot of people uses unity3D, which is 3D engine, but can be used for 2D games as well, with some tricks.

If you are going for desktop there are many more 2D engines, such as Pygame, Allegro for free engines.

There are loads of engines out there, you should take a good look, those are just some examples that may give you a direction.

For your artists, the basic free solutions are Inkscape and GIMP, maybe you will need more. I don't know what paid solutions are used.

Also, you may want to have someone that is dedicated directly to the network, creating a protocol that support a MMO is very hard, specially if you are using multithreads. There is a paid SDK called Photon that is dedicated for network, you should have a look at it.

 

Making a game work in a single country is impossible unless you have a mail confirmation system (the person registers, you send a letter with a code to the adress and the person has to enter the code to complete the registration). Limiting by IP won't do any good simply because there are proxies. Asking for documents is also useless as most documents are easily generated (see Ragnarok Online 2, for instance). My advice here is DON'T TRY, if people want to play your game, let them, it is very hard to get people into your game, forbidden people to play won't gain you anything but hurt feelings.

 

I didn't understand the forth question, do you want your clients to host the games? That is usually a bad idea, cause clients will lie and lie a lot =p


My blog on programming and games.
http://16bitsflag.blogspot.com.br/

#5 jHaskell   Members   -  Reputation: 956

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:01 AM

please dont waste your time telling me that its really hard to get that done, because I know that already =)

 

I won't tell you it's really hard to get that done.

 

It's impossible to get it done, for anyone without significant game development experience to begin with.  It's only really hard when you already have a significant amount of experience under your belt.



#6 tp9   Members   -  Reputation: 500

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:51 AM

No one's asked to see the design doc yet?



#7 smr   Members   -  Reputation: 1556

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

Let me sumarize it this way:

 

difficulty, cost and resource for making single player game = 1

multi player game of similar calibur with added multiplayer = 10

mmo = 100

 

Actually I wouldn't be too discouraging about multiplayer game difficulty. While it is certainly more difficult to create a multiplayer game than a single player game, I don't think it is by an order of magnitude. Or at least, it doesn't have to be.

 

That being said, scaling up to MASSIVELY is definitely not for the feint of heart. Technical issues aside, generating appropriate content for players who are not necessarily "playing together" and enough of it for massive numbers playing in the world at the same time without stepping all over each other is an enormous challenge.



#8 BeerNutts   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2570

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:28 PM

What language?  If C++, I have some suggestions, but I'd never tell a beginner to start trying to make a 2d side-scroller MMORPG game.  If I were talking to an experienced programmer, I'd suggest...

Can you make a map?  I'd suggest looking at Tiled

Can you make characters and animate them?  I suggest looking at Gimp for creation and Spriter for animation.

Can you handle all the input, drawing, audio, windowing?  I suggest looking at SFML

Can you handle 2d physics?  I suggest looking at chipmunk-physics or box2d

Can you handle networking?  I'd suggest looking at RakNet

 

Good luck.  Learn as much as you can, and always get better.


My Gamedev Journal: 2D Game Making, the Easy Way

---(Old Blog, still has good info): 2dGameMaking
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"No one ever posts on that message board; it's too crowded." - Yoga Berra (sorta)

#9 Satharis   Members   -  Reputation: 949

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:43 PM

I wouldn't even tell an experienced game developer to make an MMO.

Seriously developing an MMO is like ten games in one, even a small one. Not only is it incredibly difficult to do, but in most cases unless you have a whole team backing you up and a serious gameplan you're just going to waste your time anyway. There are not many people cut out to make MMO's, and the few ones that are running from humble beginnings(i.e. runescape) started as pet projects and happened to find an audience.

I just really couldn't convey the absurd amount of work that an MMO requires without you actually trying it yourself, there are no words to describe it. Not impossible by far but usually enough work to not even be worth the investment.

Honestly I've heard "i'm ready for anything" or "I can do anything given enough time" enough times to make me sick, if you really want to develop games then work on games that are more realistic. Re-evaluate your idea in the future when you are sufficiently experienced.

For the record, not one person that has said any of those phrases to me ever actually did what they promised they would do. I think the people that really -will- succeed are the ones that realize that they may not be able to pull it off.

Edited by Satharis, 08 May 2013 - 04:46 PM.


#10 Plethora   Members   -  Reputation: 679

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:25 PM

What you could do is make a mario clone, and build up from there.

 

Given your mentality and what you want to do, this is the best advice for you.  Start by making one part of your maple story like 2d MMORPG and branch out from there.  I mean, they never coulda made maplestory without a very basic platformer game at its base, so you should start in the same place.

 

Once you have that, maybe you want to build a town and make all that work, you'll need to do an inventory system at some point too.  But the point is, no matter how big your ultimate goal is, you still have to break it up into smaller pieces. 

 

Good Luck!


I'm working on a game!  It's called "Spellbook Tactics".  I'd love it if you checked it out, offered some feedback, etc.  I am very excited about my progress thus far and confident about future progress as well!

 

http://infinityelephant.wordpress.com


#11 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17268

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 04:10 AM

What skills do you bring to the table?  Ideally you should be a programmer so you can start the project and do most of the work for yourself -- this also frees you from relying completely on others.

 

 

You'll need to start by choosing a programming language for your project.  If you already have some experience you would probably be well off using a language you're already familiar with.  If you don't have prior experience I would probably suggest either Python (which was used extensively in EVE Online and Toontown Online amongst others) or Java (which was used for RuneScape and Spiral Knights amongst others).  You'll need to spend time learning the basics of your chosen language and become comfortable with creating some smaller games by yourself before you're ready to work with a team or try tackling a more complex project like an MMO.

 

I would agree with the above suggestion of working your way up to it by creating smaller games: start by learning to create a basic 2d side-scroller and a chat program separately, then work on adding multi-player and supporting larger numbers of players.

 

 

what should I do now and how many team members will I need?

It can sometimes be counter-intuitive, but most successful indie projects are completed by smaller rather than larger teams.  You should work with the smallest team you can possibly complete the project with and only bring additional people on board as needed.

 

You should begin with only a single programmer -- ideally you will be doing this yourself.  Once you have a basic framework of a game up and running you can get someone to start making graphics; start with only one person, and only add more if the first is unable to keep up and you really need the help.  Only add additional people when they are really necessary.  You do not need an army of designers, artists, audio people, etc.

 

what software should we start with?

You should begin by working with only a single person of each discipline -- one programmer, one artist, one composer, etc. -- and each should choose the software they are most comfortable with.  There's no point dictating choice of software as long as each person is able to do their job properly; but if you end up recruiting additional people it would be beneficial that they stick with the same choices as your original team.

 

 

 

Alternatively, take a look at HeroEngine.

 

 

 

Hope that's helpful! smile.png



#12 nhatkthanh   Members   -  Reputation: 334

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 10:57 AM

Let me sumarize it this way:

 

difficulty, cost and resource for making single player game = 1

multi player game of similar calibur with added multiplayer = 10

mmo = 100

 

Actually I wouldn't be too discouraging about multiplayer game difficulty. While it is certainly more difficult to create a multiplayer game than a single player game, I don't think it is by an order of magnitude. Or at least, it doesn't have to be.

 

That being said, scaling up to MASSIVELY is definitely not for the feint of heart. Technical issues aside, generating appropriate content for players who are not necessarily "playing together" and enough of it for massive numbers playing in the world at the same time without stepping all over each other is an enormous challenge.

 

I agree, I was trying to illustrate a picture, guess it didn't comes out quite right.



#13 Disent   Members   -  Reputation: 126

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:27 AM

It's your job to post your dreams and our job to kill them.



#14 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17268

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:23 PM

It's your job to post your dreams and our job to kill them.

Sadly, an all-too-accurate assessment of many of the replies to this and similar topics -- but kudos to those who also chipped in useful advice!

 

 

Yes, making an online game is a difficult undertaking.  Yes, an MMO is beyond the capabilities of the majority of would-be game creators.

 

But here we have an original poster who doesn't want to make a WoW killer, clone EVE Online, or make the next RuneScape.  Here we have someone who wants to make a simpler 2d game.  That only wants to support a maximum of 5,000 players.  That isn't interested in being a global success, but just wants a game people in his own country might enjoy.  A person who apparently at least took the time to create some sort of design document, and appears to be trying to do their due diligence before recruiting a team.   

 

Is this still difficult?  You bet it is -- it's a difficult undertaking that would entail a lengthy learning and development process, and probably a couple of smaller (perhaps failed) games along the way.  

 

Is it impossible.  No, it's not.  Single developers and small teams have succeeded at more difficult projects than this one.

 

Here we have a user who specifically noted that this would be a "super hard" project and wants to do "whatever it takes" to succeed.  Someone who specifically asked not to be warned about the difficulty, claiming to already know; it's pretty obvious from the mention of this that this is someone who has done some basic research and seen similar warnings before, and although probably underestimates the difficulty has chosen to continue anyway.

 

 

Some of the most impressive projects around come from people who stubbornly forge ahead when faced with difficult or "impossible" challenges.  When community member Danny Green started with his goal of making high quality professional games by himself many people considered it overly difficult or not impossible until he started to show impressive progress.  Danny now has two impressive games released:  Urban Empires and Gettysburg:  Armored Warfare.  Flavien Brebion worked by himself for a good few years before building enough of a following to attract help he considered reliable enough, and his goal of a space-based MMO set in a highly detailed procedural universe seemed like an overly difficult dream.  He still has a long way to go, but Infinity has progressed in leaps and bounds and is incredibly impressive.  It's been around a decade since Radu Privantu created his small scale MORPG Eternal Lands -- and while it's no WoW or EverQuest it has attracted a stable and sizeable player-base.

 

Obviously these successes are the exception rather than the rule, but for the rest of us schmucks attempted and failing at these types of project is one of the absolute best learning experiences available.  When you tell the original poster that (s)he is underestimating the difficulty of this project what experience are you basing that on?  In many cases it's based on your own prior attempts at an overly ambitious project in which you would have learned a great many lessons and gained invaluable experience; I understand the drive to try to prevent others from wasting their time, but why rob a determined beginner of that incredibly valuable learning experience?

 

 

Warning someone about the difficulty is fine -- perhaps even a good idea if they seem unaware of what they're getting into.  But when someone claims to understand the difficulty -- even if they're probably underestimating it -- why continue to push the point?  Sure, give the advice if you feel it's necessary, but how about some actual detailed ideas for how to proceed with the project as well?  Maybe the original poster is one of those rare driven people who will just keep at it until the project succeeds, or maybe they'll fail and learn all those lessons more experienced developers harp on about.  Either way, post after post telling them their project is "too difficult" or "impossible" just isn't helpful.

 

</rant>


Edited by jbadams, 11 May 2013 - 06:25 PM.


#15 Satharis   Members   -  Reputation: 949

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:13 PM

But here we have an original poster who doesn't want to make a WoW killer, clone EVE Online, or make the next RuneScape.  Here we have someone who wants to make a simpler 2d game.  That only wants to support a maximum of 5,000 players.  That isn't interested in being a global success, but just wants a game people in his own country might enjoy.  A person who apparently at least took the time to create some sort of design document, and appears to be trying to do their due diligence before recruiting a team.

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen that exact type of person before and they still had -no- idea what they were getting themselves into. Not everyone is trying to just "kill dreams" by pointing out something is extremely hard to do and the people that do it may be a little insane in the membrane.
   

Is this still difficult?  You bet it is -- it's a difficult undertaking that would entail a lengthy learning and development process, and probably a couple of smaller (perhaps failed) games along the way.

I totally agree, if he wants to go that route. His post implied that he was ready to go directly at his dream and was doing the "don't try and stop me, I'll do it no matter what any of you say!" thing.

Some of us are trying to be realistic, perhaps some are just being pessimistic. It's definitely not an impossible goal, but I'm just not sure the OP really understands what he is talking about doing.  

Is it impossible.  No, it's not.  Single developers and small teams have succeeded at more difficult projects than this one.

To be fair those people are few and number and most of the time they ended up trained programmers from it or were college students in the first place. I'm all for being positive but it's better not to dillude people into thinking that it's like one of those kid moments where you can be an astronaut if you just try your hardest. A lot of things have to happen before that.

Here we have a user who specifically noted that this would be a "super hard" project and wants to do "whatever it takes" to succeed.  Someone who specifically asked not to be warned about the difficulty, claiming to already know; it's pretty obvious from the mention of this that this is someone who has done some basic research and seen similar warnings before, and although probably underestimates the difficulty has chosen to continue anyway.

Honestly that's the part that I -consistantly- see. People read these kinds of threads and then they think "I'm different, I must be different." That advice is usually given for a reason.
 

Obviously these successes are the exception rather than the rule, but for the rest of us schmucks attempted and failing at these types of project is one of the absolute best learning experiences available.  When you tell the original poster that (s)he is underestimating the difficulty of this project what experience are you basing that on?  In many cases it's based on your own prior attempts at an overly ambitious project in which you would have learned a great many lessons and gained invaluable experience; I understand the drive to try to prevent others from wasting their time, but why rob a determined beginner of that incredibly valuable learning experience?

Mainly because the primary things that people take away from those experiences are that they got themselves into something that was too big for them, it seats in them firmly that they know how high that mountaintop is and that they have no interest in even trying to reach it again. Not until they had a ton of experience and a good team of people maybe.
 

Warning someone about the difficulty is fine -- perhaps even a good idea if they seem unaware of what they're getting into.  But when someone claims to understand the difficulty -- even if they're probably underestimating it -- why continue to push the point?  Sure, give the advice if you feel it's necessary, but how about some actual detailed ideas for how to proceed with the project as well?  Maybe the original poster is one of those rare driven people who will just keep at it until the project succeeds, or maybe they'll fail and learn all those lessons more experienced developers harp on about.  Either way, post after post telling them their project is "too difficult" or "impossible" just isn't helpful.
 
</rant>

I would agree in part, people are probably being a bit over pessimistic here and thats why in my post at least I used examples and background for my thoughts. If after all our dissuading he still feels he can do this. Well, more power to him. If he fails it'l mainly be him that will take away from it, so its not the end of the world.

But on the other hand I just have to outline the fact that it's completely -normal- for people to make threads like this and say the exact same thing "I know how hard it is." To me that just says they -don't- know how hard it is, it's not really something you can convey. The only thing you can take away from it is either: "I tried it and learned" or "someone told me the horrors and I believed them."

I at least am not trying to kick him out the door, just more point out that his dream may not even make him happy to pursue, he should be prepared for the absurd amount of work it takes. But if he wants to go for it, hell, go for it. Ask more questions here, I'm sure quite a few people are ready to answer them!

*ON TOPIC*
Your biggest goal really, at least initially is to look at the kind of game you're making. Having a design doc is definitely a good start, you'll want to look at your needs and figure out what kind of people you need on your team. How long it might take(it may be better to ask a programmer their opinion of that or show us your design doc.) Things like that.

Picking tools is more for when you know what your needs will be, which is challenging at best when you have little-no experience.


Edited by Satharis, 11 May 2013 - 07:16 PM.


#16 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 17268

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:07 AM

Agreed on all points really -- but unfortunately I think this is just one of those mistakes that the majority of people have to be allowed to make at least once -- everyone in the world can tell them a project is almost certainly too difficult, but if they have the mentality that they'll be different the only real solution is to try, fail, and hopefully learn from the experience -- more people telling them how difficult it is isn't likely to sway their opinion.

 

I think there is a place for that kind of advice, but unless it comes with more on-point answers to the questions being asked it unfortunately just goes ignored in most cases, and even assuming people are deluding themselves about what they'll be able to achieve I think providing some path to continuing usually provides more value than not.



#17 tp9   Members   -  Reputation: 500

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:00 PM

I really like this idea. That no code written, or time spent designing,  is ever wasted. Even if you eventually throw it away, you learned something in the process. And you'll be way ahead of all those people that talk about doing something but never start.

 

Agreed on all points really -- but unfortunately I think this is just one of those mistakes that the majority of people have to be allowed to make at least once -- everyone in the world can tell them a project is almost certainly too difficult, but if they have the mentality that they'll be different the only real solution is to try, fail, and hopefully learn from the experience -- more people telling them how difficult it is isn't likely to sway their opinion.

 

I think there is a place for that kind of advice, but unless it comes with more on-point answers to the questions being asked it unfortunately just goes ignored in most cases, and even assuming people are deluding themselves about what they'll be able to achieve I think providing some path to continuing usually provides more value than not.



#18 khaledsh   Members   -  Reputation: 102

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 09:06 AM

thx alot for the advice guys!!
I forgot to mention that im in university studying "computer science" and I have alot of free time for that, so it shouldnt be hard if I worked on it 24/7.






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