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Microsoft and the Xbox One. Thoughts?


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#221 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4680

Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:55 PM

also, let's look at this from another point of view. what's the point of buying single player games, if all i have to do is wait for one of my xbox live buddies to get bored of it? I'd think this would hurt the industry more than used sales. it'd also force devs to always shoe-horn in some type of multiplayer component, even for campaigns.


All they would do is put a limit on how long you can borrow it just like Blockbuster did so many years ago. They can DRM the DRM all they like once they fully implement this system.
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#222 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:55 PM

 

If Microsoft were smart they would have left physical disc licensing as it is
and announced all the good news related to strong DRM-style licensing for download only games
 
"We will allow you to share downloaded games with up to 10 friends" would have been an PR coup!

 
You wouldn't mean something like....
 

So obviously, I don't understand how all of this works exactly. If you have a game from disc, then you shouldn't be able to lend digitally. If you've downloaded a game from the cloud, then you should be able to. So if you digitally lend the game to your friend, then you should be effectively locked out from the game, until your friend gives it back. Why can't this work without (the check-in once a day) DRM?


And replace lock-out with "let 10 friends play".

 

 

Once again, Microsoft PR and marketing is completely incompetent. Pretty much every time they said something, things got worse. I don't think there was any way to recover. They allowed the competition to deliver the message about what the Xbox was more than they did.

 

The only problem I have with the scenario above is it avoids one of the important goals (in my opinion) of the Xbox one which is the unification of downloaded games and retail purchases. Steam has done this somewhat on the PC. Some of the games you buy off the shelf at a retail store require Steam. After you tie the license to your Steam account, the discs just become a means of installation. You can download and install the game if you prefer from another computer or you can use the discs to install the game on as many machines as you want. The primary difference between the Xbox One and Steam is that you would have had more freedom over what you can do with your games. You could share them with friends without losing access to them which Steam may be adopting some form of (Good when Steam does it, bad when Microsoft does!), and you could even trade them in for credit towards other games.



#223 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4680

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:00 PM

The only problem I have with the scenario above is it avoids one of the important goals (in my opinion) of the Xbox one which is the unification of downloaded games and retail purchases. Steam has done this somewhat on the PC. Some of the games you buy off the shelf at a retail store require Steam. After you tie the license to your Steam account, the discs just become a means of installation. You can download and install the game if you prefer from another computer or you can use the discs to install the game on as many machines as you want. The primary difference between the Xbox One and Steam is that you would have had more freedom over what you can do with your games. You could share them with friends without losing access to them which Steam may be adopting some form of (Good when Steam does it, bad when Microsoft does!), and you could even trade them in for credit towards other games.


However, when changing the landscape you have to do it in phases. If Microsoft did my way first, then by the middle or (definitely) end of this console generation, the way it was originally envision would have been able to be implemented without much complaint. People would have already been used to doing borrowing and trading-in games digitally that doing it otherwise would seem silly.

But like you said, their PR department sucks. But also, their measure of how much influence they have over the gaming and PC markets is obviously off by a wide margin.
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#224 Cornstalks   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6966

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:02 PM

 

Some people, and some parts of the world, are ready for a technological gaming revolution, the kind that the Xbox One was aiming for (with its Internet requirements and all). But the reality is that a lot of the word isn't ready for that. They're still catching up.

I fully recognize that, but so what? Why should the gaming technology of first world countries be held back by countries where the vast majority of it's citizens wouldn't be able to afford the console in the first place? The average per-capita income in Africa is $315. I highly doubt there is a huge market there just waiting to pickup a PS4 or Xbox One.

I'm no economist, but I'm think it's in Microsoft's best (financial) interests to target the widest audience possible. Also, some of these countries are on the verge of becoming much more economically stable, and if Microsoft can get a foot in the door early on, it can help future profits as a (financially) growing nation, who is already at least partially familiar with Microsoft because they got their foot in the door, embraces more products from a brand they already know (at least to some degree).

 

I'd love for the world to be waaay more technologically advanced than it currently is, and I think one reason that it's not is that we keep trying to be backwards compatible and target the largest common denominator. But from a financial, profits perspective, it's hard to argue that this move isn't in Microsoft's own best interest.

 

Hopefully for the next console after this the world will be technologically ready for some ground breaking, radical changes. But the global market for that just isn't big enough right now, IMO. And since Sony decided to play it safe and milk today's cow instead of tomorrow's future, Microsoft doesn't have to worry about Sony stealing the future. Instead, Microsoft has to worry about Sony stealing the present.


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#225 slicer4ever   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3192

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:03 PM

also, let's look at this from another point of view. what's the point of buying single player games, if all i have to do is wait for one of my xbox live buddies to get bored of it? I'd think this would hurt the industry more than used sales. it'd also force devs to always shoe-horn in some type of multiplayer component, even for campaigns.


All they would do is put a limit on how long you can borrow it just like Blockbuster did so many years ago. They can DRM the DRM all they like once they fully implement this system.


but what prevents me from re-borrowing the game? and continuing, it's just a minor annoyance at worse.
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#226 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4680

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:05 PM

but what prevents me from re-borrowing the game? and continuing, it's just a minor annoyance at worse.


Well first, your friend has to let you borrow it. Second, they could just throw some more DRM to limit not only the length of the borrowing but the number of times you borrow in a certain period. Like I said, DRMing the DRM gives infinite possibilities.
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#227 slicer4ever   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3192

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:07 PM

but what prevents me from re-borrowing the game? and continuing, it's just a minor annoyance at worse.


Well first, your friend has to let you borrow it. Second, they could just throw some more DRM to limit not only the length of the borrowing but the number of times you borrow in a certain period. Like I said, DRMing the DRM gives infinite possibilities.


all i hear from this is absolutely terrible practices being imposed by microsoft, Alpha, i'm not sure if you were pro, or anti these restrictions. but if this were the case of what they would do to restrict trading, i for one am quite happy they've backpeddled on thses changes.
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#228 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4680

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:13 PM

I was against the once a day online check-in. And I was against the always-on Kinect.

However, I'm not against the features that tstrimple mentioned. I think they're pretty cool.

However, what I have been mentioning to you isn't anything Microsoft has said it would do. I've only been giving scenarios of what they could do with their online DRMs.
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#229 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:20 PM

 

 

but what prevents me from re-borrowing the game? and continuing, it's just a minor annoyance at worse.


Well first, your friend has to let you borrow it. Second, they could just throw some more DRM to limit not only the length of the borrowing but the number of times you borrow in a certain period. Like I said, DRMing the DRM gives infinite possibilities.

 


all i hear from this is absolutely terrible practices being imposed by microsoft, Alpha, i'm not sure if you were pro, or anti these restrictions. but if this were the case of what they would do to restrict trading, i for one am quite happy they've backpeddled on thses changes.

 

 

The proposed system was for you to have a circle of friends, and any of your friends could play games from your shared library. There was no mention of limited use apart from hourly checkins to make sure multiple friends weren't all playing at the same time. You didn't have to lend games to friends, they automatically had access to your full shared library. On top of that, your friends playing your games didn't prevent you from playing your games which opens up the possibility of playing multiplayer with a friend who doesn't own the game. Much like you can do now with a physical copy if you play split screen, except this would have been full screen and you didn't have to be in the same place.

 

And this is why FUD is bad people. Alpha is talking about what he thinks possible outcomes could have been, and slicer4ever believe that's what Microsoft was actually proposing, so he's off to spread the same FUD in other locations based on hearsay.

 

Edit: THANK YOU Alpha! Hopefully slice gets that last message.


Edited by tstrimple, 20 June 2013 - 02:21 PM.


#230 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:24 PM

I was against the once a day online check-in. And I was against the always-on Kinect.

However, I'm not against the features that tstrimple mentioned. I think they're pretty cool.

However, what I have been mentioning to you isn't anything Microsoft has said it would do. I've only been giving scenarios of what they could do with their online DRMs.

 

Out of curiosity, why are you against the once a day checkin? Is it principle or are you regularly in an environment that doesn't have internet for more than 24 hours?

 

As far as the Kinect goes, it will never be a viable tool for game developers to use unless they can rely on gamers having access to it. You can disable the sensor in the settings to turn off features like the Kinect listening for "Xbox On" when the console is turned off.



#231 slicer4ever   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3192

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:34 PM

...snip...

 
The proposed system was for you to have a circle of friends, and any of your friends could play games from your shared library. There was no mention of limited use apart from hourly checkins to make sure multiple friends weren't all playing at the same time. You didn't have to lend games to friends, they automatically had access to your full shared library. On top of that, your friends playing your games didn't prevent you from playing your games which opens up the possibility of playing multiplayer with a friend who doesn't own the game. Much like you can do now with a physical copy if you play split screen, except this would have been full screen and you didn't have to be in the same place.


see, my problem is. I never seen microsoft say that's how this system was supposed to work. I mean it's most probable in the pr disaster that fell onto them, that it got lost in translation, but had they brought this concept to the front, it'd probably appeased more people. Of course then the question becomes what size of circle of friends? isn't this system worse for developers in terms of game trading?(see my previous point about single player games, and hell, even multiplayer games.) As you've said, the problem was their pr, but i'd like some official links to back-up these claims before i 100% take your word that this was their intention.

And this is why FUD is bad people. Alpha is talking about what he thinks possible outcomes could have been, and slicer4ever believe that's what Microsoft was actually proposing, so he's off to spread the same FUD in other locations based on hearsay.
 
Edit: THANK YOU Alpha! Hopefully slice gets that last message.


I knew alpha was only proposing hypothetical, but the fact that he could come up with simply ideas that microsoft could use to further restrict trading is worrying enough.

still, if this was all set in stone, i find it hard that microsoft had such a horrible PR disaster, it should have been made clear during the first announcment. someone had to of dropped the ball pretty damn hard to screw-up so badly.

also, the 24 hour check in was still crap, and i have no remorse that they took it out.

they could still make both systems work though, i woudn't see the benefit of the game sharing, since i coudn't dl the games on my connection, but they could have made it work if you had the physical media in the xbox for the game(basically to supersede the 24h check-ins.)
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#232 siri   Members   -  Reputation: 233

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:40 PM

 

As far as the Kinect goes, it will never be a viable tool for game developers to use unless they can rely on gamers having access to it. 

 

 

I agree, which is why I think it's a pointless and costly addition, it's only really useful to developers working on exclusives. Until it becomes a standardised technology that all platforms have I don't see the reason for it. They could compete on price with PS4 if they just dropped it.

 

I could be way off but that's the way I currently see Kinect. It's a cool bit of kit but nothing more.



#233 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:41 PM


no, it is an damn issue. get over you high horse for being someone lucky enough to live where you get decent internet. I don't wanna be left in the past simply because i can't afford good enough internet. I still wanna enjoy some of the great franchises available, that will only continue onto the newer generation. think of what future elder scrolls have in store when their baseline hardware has finally jumped up a notch.

And imagine what a game like The Elder Scrolls could actually do if they had full online internet access and the processing power of the "cloud". Games like this are ideal targets for offloading calculations to Microsoft servers. You could have much​ more immersive worlds where npcs have actual arcs and the worlds can see significant changes based on AI calculations that can be offloaded from the Xbox. Likewise with games like the Sims or Civilization. All of these games could be significantly better if they could rely on cloud computation, but that requires a stable internet connection.

 


you could say that about the ps3, it came out more expensive than the X1, and still is played heavily in third-world countrys.

 

I do say that about the PS3 which is not played heavily in third-world countries based on the sales numbers.

 

World Wide Sales Figures

 

Add up US, Europe and Japan sales for the PS3 and compare it to the world wide number. The number left over for third world countries is insignificant. South Africa gaming market is less than 100 million for a country of 50 million. 



#234 YodamanJer   Members   -  Reputation: 433

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:48 PM

 All of these games could be significantly better if they could rely on cloud computation, but that requires a stable internet connection.

See, and that's why most people were upset by the once-a-day-check in; not everyone (even in America) has a reliable connection for such a feature. I can see it being an amazing and REALLY cool thing in the future to have, but really, the infrastructure for such a thing just isn't quite there yet.


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#235 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4680

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:53 PM

 

I was against the once a day online check-in. And I was against the always-on Kinect.

However, I'm not against the features that tstrimple mentioned. I think they're pretty cool.

However, what I have been mentioning to you isn't anything Microsoft has said it would do. I've only been giving scenarios of what they could do with their online DRMs.

 
Out of curiosity, why are you against the once a day checkin? Is it principle or are you regularly in an environment that doesn't have internet for more than 24 hours?

 


Well.... smile.png

  1. It is principle. It's one thing for PCs, but I don't believe that consoles should have to do such a thing.
  2. I don't think it was necessary for them to have that "feature". They could have found a way to do what they wanted to do without that.
  3. I'm not a fan of wireless connection for my console. I prefer it wired. With that said, I don't want to be wiring consoles all across my house. (Yes, I realize this is the weakest of the 3 arguments.)

 

As far as the Kinect goes, it will never be a viable tool for game developers to use unless they can rely on gamers having access to it. You can disable the sensor in the settings to turn off features like the Kinect listening for "Xbox On" when the console is turned off.

 

The conspiracist in me just says, "NO!". It's why I put tape over the built-in webcam of my laptop. Granted I'm a special case, so I'm not going to apply that issue to the general populace. It might be unique to only me :D


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#236 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4680

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:55 PM


South Africa gaming market is less than 100 million for a country of 50 million.

 

This is a very confusing sentence....


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#237 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:04 PM

 


South Africa gaming market is less than 100 million for a country of 50 million.

 

This is a very confusing sentence....

 

 

The total spending on gaming in South Africa is less than $100 million USD, compared to a population of 50 million. Better? They spend, on average, $2 per person on gaming a year.



#238 skytiger   Members   -  Reputation: 258

Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:51 PM

It's why I put tape over the built-in webcam of my laptop

 

Me too, and I won't have a webcam in the house, the times I have walked naked into a room only to see myself on a laptop screen being sent across the world to my parents-in-law



#239 slicer4ever   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3192

Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:12 PM

edit: wrong thread.


Edited by slicer4ever, 20 June 2013 - 05:13 PM.

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#240 skytiger   Members   -  Reputation: 258

Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:16 PM

from the horses mouth:

 

http://news.xbox.com/Search?q=licensing






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