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Microsoft and the Xbox One. Thoughts?


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#81 noisecrime   Members   -  Reputation: 710

Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:44 PM

heard this crazy thing at Vintage Stock (it's very much like GameStop). The Xbox One will use the Kinect to see how many people are watching a movie (on say Netflix or Amazon). And if it's past a certain number, then The One will ask for you to pay an extra fee to allow more viewers (that are physically in the same place as you). Now I don't know how true it is. So I am for now calling this a rumor from an employee from an used games store.

 

This rumour is due to the fact that last year MS got a patent for doing exactly this. However there it seems very unlikely they are launching with such a system. Although currently the kinect must be connected to the X1 to function, it is supposively only keeping on its audio functions, so that you can use voice commands to turn on/wake up the xbox as shown in the reveal.

 

Of course the problem here is that there is nothing to stop MS from simply turning on such a feature in the future.

 

 

I think most people still misunderstand the changing gaming market. The 'hardcore' gamer segment is probably less than a third of the existing market, and ignoring PC-fanboys that will never switch to console, the segment growth is pretty much limited to recruiting those who are too young to have yet become loyal to one camp or the other -- 5-10 year olds that Sony is mostly ignoring. There's mothers and grandmothers logging into facebook to play casual games, tons of people hunched over their cell phones and tablets. Maybe those people aren't going to buy a console, but its indicative of a changing market, and if not those people specifically, it says that there are a lot of people out there for which the console has not traditionally appealed to.

 

The other part of the market is made up of those who game more casually, players of casual games, middle-aged moms and dads, frat-boys who play Madden and an occasional match of CoD. Microsoft is attempting to do what the Wii managed to do through innovative, casual games -- bring new consumers into the market -- through media integration, and to a lesser extent casual/kinect games for the younger audience--and, I'll say it again because I believe it so much, price. Sony's strategy is to appeal to that 30% of the market and hope that the halo effect garners enough attention from the rest of it. Microsoft is trying to appeal to more kinds of people.

 

Its hard to know the percentage of hardcore gamers to own consoles, especially so late in the generation, particulary with PS3 having its blu-ray and MS with its Kinect skewing those results further, I suspect they still make up a larger percentage than one third. Though this also depends on your definition of a hardcore/causal gamer, which even gamers themselves often define themselves as one or the other against the common-sense understanding to the terms (e.g. people playing 4-5 hours a day on a single game, consider themselves as causal ?)

 

However I have no doubt in my mind that its exactly the hardcore gamer crowd who are the early adopters to purchase these systems and remains o for the first year or more, after all it makes sense, they are/were gaming machines. This I think will be problematic for MS as they've made such a drastic move away from supporting and indeed possibly going out of their way to frustrate hardcore gamers. Though this also heavily depends upon where Sony and the PS4 are in regards to second-hand, backwards compatibility etc Assuming the PS4 permits the existing second-hand method and their streaming BC works then they will have very clear benefits for gamers over X1.

 

This leaves MS having to convince non-gamers and gamers alike that their machine, with all its built in 'entertainment' features is worth buying. I'm just not sure they can. While there is no doubt that it will probably be good value for money and offer interesting features to the general public, do they have the disposable income to spend on it or are they busy spending it on tablets, smartphones etc? Are those features so much better than there current TV/entertainment or using a remote to tempt them? Do they really want to have a second blu-ray? There will be takers, but I have a feeling initially it will be dwarfed by hardcore gamers, which may then become a self-fulling prophecy if PS4 gains significant traction as the console to get.

 

Worse MS have done nothing to retain their existing gamers beyond continuing with their gamer account (achievements etc) and gold covering both systems simultaneously. The lack of backwards compatibility, and the lack of being able to transfer anything game related purchased on the xbox, means as a user you are back at square one. That is i'm no better off getting an X1 this time than if I were to switch to PS4. Indeed switching to PS4 may offer more benefits as I could use its streaming BC service to catch up on the half dozen or more exclusive games I missed by not having a PS3.

 

From all the information so far I'm summing it up as 'X1 for entertainment and media at the center of your living room, PS4 is a gamers console'. Which one you get will ultimately depend on where you prefer to be placed.


Edited by noisecrime, 23 May 2013 - 07:35 PM.


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#82 Icebone1000   Members   -  Reputation: 972

Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:51 PM

I dont get why ppl still want to play on consoles..computers can play games, and do everything else..How can consoles still be on market, whats the appeal? to me is zero..but probably because in Brazil its ridiculous expensive with stupid abusive taxes, both on games and console..

Is it game titles exclusivity? cant be.. that would be a market forced down ppls troat, so what Im not getting?

Exclusives, ease-of-use, longevity, habit. Take your pick.

 

The PC is a fine gaming platform, but for most people (the non-hardcore gamer) the PC gaming world is confusing because of the variations in the platform. You and I know what kind of video card we ought to buy, processor, how much RAM, if we want to game. We know which video settings to tweak if a particular game is running more slowly than we would like. We know how to install and uninstall our software, add storage to our machines when we run out of room, and lots of other technical things that are simple for us.

 

But you and I are not most people. If you spend any amount of time window shopping for PC games or graphics cards, you see tons of people wonder out loud "Will this game run on my computer?", "How good of a graphics card to I really need?", "Are they really that expensive?". "Do I get PCIe, or AGP? Is my PC PCIe 3.0? I don't know." Everything about PC gaming is confusing for 70% of the population.

 

When someone buys a console, they know that for the next 5-10 years all they have to do is pick the right color game box, and pop the disc in the machine. They always get the same, simple experience, no upgrades necessary, no confusion, no additional expense.

 

There's plenty of other good reasons too -- the living room experience of console gaming is much different than sitting at a desk. The experience can be easily shared with friends and your kids. Its generally cheaper to start -- sure you might be able to build a cheap PC that has equal or even greater specs than a console, but the OS, drivers, and other abstractions end up being such that you need a 50% advantage in resources (or more), just to match what the console is able to do by not having any of that overhead.

 

There are advantages to both sides, but there are fewer downsides on the console for the average user. The only real downside to the console are that, past year 2 or 3, you're falling behind the performance curve of a reasonable gaming PC, and that you're stuck with it for 3-4 more years. If you're the kind of guy that values being on the bleeding edge of performance, you're a PC gamer, but you've got to pay to keep up, so it has to be really worthwhile to you. I don't think most people are like that, at least not in the US anyways.

 

I imagine, however, in Brazil its a very different situation where, because of the cost of consoles and games, there are only PC gamers for the most part, and as a result all gamers are necessarily technically adept. 

 

I understand your point, and I agree, just want say somethings that came to my mind while reading your post..

 

You can have an average pc and still be a gamer, and the pc can last some good years ( I bought mine on 2009, and not close from buying a new one).  I dont play in the max settings, but in better than medium settings..and its a core 2 duo..and a notebook. I think its exagerated statement to say pc gamers need to keep super hardware to play. Im certanly am not the kind who invest on super machines, and am doing super fine with it.

 I have a Gateway p-7908u, certainly its a very good notebook (at least from a "Brazilian dude" point of view, I paid ~2250 dollars, while it was ~1000 on USA, but lets not whine about living on Brazil, just trying to pic my reality, everyone gets impressed when they see it, probably due the colors and the fact ppl don invest on notebooks, but on desktops), but I dont think thats what average ppl consider hardcore pc gamer platform. Its the only pc I have, (I dont have a desktop), I use it for programming, drawing and gaming. And still can play games fine in it...(hitman absolution, batman arkham city, darksiders 2..)

 

About the casual consumer, they play on facebook and browsers, not consoles..that means netbooks, crap pcs and smartphones, not consoles. Mom for sure dont know whats a playstation or a xbox, although demonstrated interest on a wii once, but was a moment thing.

 

Also, consoles are not anymore a one option ("ps4 or xbox one?"), theres a whole bunch of options now and ppl still need to ask (I really dont know about consoles anymore, except nintendo ds and now a bit os psp, but I know they at least differentiate on HD size models), but yeah, not to be compared with pc.

 

Also, you say its a one time buy...you forgot Nintendo..LOL. Let me whine a bit about my frustration against Nintendo, these suckers have no respect to theyr consumers..seriously, they launch a crap version, than they launch a better one, than a better one.. Theres one billion nintendo ds versions, and already a billion 3ds ones..I mean, you already know they gonna launch a bigger screen version later, probably with new incompatible features..how can ppl buy from nintendo?...you gotta hate your money..



#83 Buster2000   Members   -  Reputation: 1394

Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:54 AM

You seem to have a narrow view of both gaming and of PCs as a consumer piece of technology.  You say you have a mid 2009 PC and it copes well with games, however I have a 2005 XBOX (Still going strong with no red rings ;)).  Try playing a modern game with a 2005 PC that has had no upgrades done to it.

Also you are missing out on the whole living room experience.  I'm grown up now I don't want to sit hidden away in a compute room / bedroom.  I want to sit in my living room on my huge leather sofa and play games on my 60 inch TV through my surround sound system.

 

Also you are totally missing out on the fact that the PC as a whole is a dying piece of technology.   Millions of people now use a tablet device for everything that their PC used to do.  I know its difficult to belive for techies such as us but the average user can write emails, type up a CV and surf the web all on a tiny portable device that can fit on a coffee table.

 

About the casual consumer, they play on facebook and browsers, not consoles..that means netbooks, crap pcs and smartphones, not consoles

 

You are assuming a lot here.  When games such as Dance Central and Zumba have been in the top 10 gaming charts for dearly 2 years.   Also what about multiplayer gaming on one device.  If I'm having a party and people wanna play a multi player game should I tell them all to go home so that we can play on our PCs over the internet or should I just turn on the xbox and have a streetfighter tournament.



#84 skytiger   Members   -  Reputation: 254

Posted 24 May 2013 - 03:04 AM

Right now Sony has all the numbers:

 

gddr5 > ddr3

18 cu > 12 cu

176 gb/sec > 68 + 102 gb/sec

 

but when you consider a typical pixel shader workload

and factor in the xbox one has 2 memory bus (68 gb/sec + 102 gb/sec)

instead of 1 for the ps4 (176 gb/sec)

 

you find the 2 machines have identical bandwidth for the typical channels of:

 

texture read

target read depth + color

target write depth + color

 

but the xbox has much better latency for the high frequency target read/write

and the xbox can use the ddr3 bus in read only mode until the resolve

 

the ps4 has 50% more compute units ... but they will be waiting on memory

 

Microsoft needs to spin the performance of the xbox one for the people who care ...



#85 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 6742

Posted 24 May 2013 - 03:57 AM

but when you consider a typical pixel shader workload

Frankly graphics workloads are not going to be a problem; compute workloads will be which is again a bandwidth problem and for which main workloads gain any advantage from the eDRAM.

#86 mdwh   Members   -  Reputation: 801

Posted 24 May 2013 - 07:53 AM

You seem to have a narrow view of both gaming and of PCs as a consumer piece of technology.  You say you have a mid 2009 PC and it copes well with games, however I have a 2005 XBOX (Still going strong with no red rings ;)).  Try playing a modern game with a 2005 PC that has had no upgrades done to it.

Also you are missing out on the whole living room experience.  I'm grown up now I don't want to sit hidden away in a compute room / bedroom.  I want to sit in my living room on my huge leather sofa and play games on my 60 inch TV through my surround sound system.

My desktop PC is in my living room, my laptop PC is on my lap and I use it on the sofa also in my living room (with the advantage that I don't have to hog the TV)... (I agree there are advantages that consoles have, but I don't think the "PCs have to be used at a desk" is one of them.)
 

Also you are totally missing out on the fact that the PC as a whole is a dying piece of technology.   Millions of people now use a tablet device for everything that their PC used to do.  I know its difficult to belive for techies such as us but the average user can write emails, type up a CV and surf the web all on a tiny portable device that can fit on a coffee table.

I think there's a definition issue here - if you mean desktop PCs, then yes, laptops have outsold desktops since the mid-2000s, and I can see desktop PCs becoming increasingly rare in homes (though that doesn't mean I'd say they are dying for business use, not for a while at least).

If you mean laptops are also dying, then no, millions buying a new kind of device doesn't mean another kind of device that still sells millions are dying. And if in 10 years, I'm sitting at a desk typing on a keyboard, running applications, possibly on a machine with x86 and/or Windows, then that's a PC, even if it's also a touchscreen "tablet".

I'm not sure how this relates to consoles - if everyone wanted to use tablets, isn't that an argument against consoles as well as "PCs"? But I think all this really shows is that there are different kinds of people who prefer different kinds of things. Some prefer consoles. Some prefer PCs, and need less portable solutions to play high end recent games (e.g., desktop PCs, or "gaming" laptops). Some prefer PCs, but are happier with games that run fine on laptops, including ultra-portables, netbooks and tablets (even once high end 3D games like Morrowind and Doom 3 are 10 years old now). Then some people prefer casual web or otherwise simple games that they play on a laptop or various sizes of tablet or phone. And some people prefer playing through their TV, and prefer the advantages of just plugging in a console, rather than trying to do so with a PC (whether desktop, laptop or tablet).
http://erebusrpg.sourceforge.net/ - Erebus, Open Source RPG for Windows/Linux/Android
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.harman/conquests.html - Conquests, Open Source Civ-like Game for Windows/Linux

#87 Anri   Members   -  Reputation: 593

Posted 25 May 2013 - 05:33 PM

With it's persistant online requirement I do wonder what Microsoft is smoking these days. There are quite a few customers who have a crap connection - sometimes being without a connection for hours on end - and Microsoft has not taken this into account.  The fact is those neglected customers will instead purchase a PS4 or Wii-U, because those consoles will still play their games even if their connection is down.

 

If Microsoft has any brains at all, they will abort this dumb requirement before its too late. Otherwise they will be the loser in the next generation of consoles.



#88 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 6742

Posted 26 May 2013 - 03:52 AM

With it's persistant online requirement I do wonder what Microsoft is smoking these days.

And with this one sentence you've nicely summed up the joke which is 'game journalism' these days because someone at MS has said that you don't need to be online all the time; currently the best information is that needs to do a Steam style check every 24h but even that isn't a hard and fast number and is subject to change.

How does this relate to 'game journalism'?
Because, like so many 'facts' about this launch, it was a rumour which got made a fact because people didn't check their sources then once it was out there was no way of correcting it.

#89 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 26 May 2013 - 06:39 AM

With it's persistant online requirement I do wonder what Microsoft is smoking these days.

And with this one sentence you've nicely summed up the joke which is 'game journalism' these days because someone at MS has said that you don't need to be online all the time; currently the best information is that needs to do a Steam style check every 24h but even that isn't a hard and fast number and is subject to change.

How does this relate to 'game journalism'?
Because, like so many 'facts' about this launch, it was a rumour which got made a fact because people didn't check their sources then once it was out there was no way of correcting it.

 

But I read it on the internet, so it must be true!



#90 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:48 AM

This leaves MS having to convince non-gamers and gamers alike that their machine, with all its built in 'entertainment' features is worth buying. I'm just not sure they can.

I'm not so sure. 15 exclusives in the first year is better than either console in this generation iirc. We haven't seen any of the games, but that's still a number that's non-trivial. It's probably going to launch cheaper and that's going to make a big difference.

This 'announcement' felt more like an announcement for their e3 announcements, and in that regard they were probably better off not doing it, but I didn't hear anything that was bad. There wasn't really enough information given to extrapolate as far as people are.



#91 phantom   Moderators   -  Reputation: 6742

Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:10 AM

This 'announcement' felt more like an announcement for their e3 announcements, and in that regard they were probably better off not doing it, but I didn't hear anything that was bad. There wasn't really enough information given to extrapolate as far as people are.

It was a hardware and 'other features' announcement; they made the point of saying they weren't going to cover games... and then everyone moans about the lack of games... *sigh*

#92 Anri   Members   -  Reputation: 593

Posted 26 May 2013 - 05:11 PM

And with this one sentence you've nicely summed up the joke which is 'game journalism' these days because someone at MS has said that you don't need to be online all the time; currently the best information is that needs to do a Steam style check every 24h but even that isn't a hard and fast number and is subject to change.

How does this relate to 'game journalism'?
Because, like so many 'facts' about this launch, it was a rumour which got made a fact because people didn't check their sources then once it was out there was no way of correcting it.

And so the story changes. Next week the press will be reporting that the BBC Micro is back with a vengence and going head-to-head with Betamax and the VHS...and Nintendo is giving away a free bunch of bananas with every copy of Donkey Kong Returns for the XBox 360.  Oh, and next week sees the long awaited third installment of the Rise of The Robots series, in which the robots will no longer kick and punch each other but will instead boast the new ground-breaking feature of throwing beanie babies at each other with lethal accuracy. In other news GTA 5 is to be blessed with a soundtrack by Stinky Weaslesticks...



#93 skytiger   Members   -  Reputation: 254

Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:24 AM

Why is nobody talking about Kinect2 + Stereo3D ?

Interacting with 3D objects floating in the air is now available to consumers

Previously it cost a fortune: www.virtalis.com



#94 Olliepm   Members   -  Reputation: 260

Posted 27 May 2013 - 07:30 AM

currently the best information is that needs to do a Steam style check every 24h but even that isn't a hard and fast number and is subject to change.

 

I posted this in a similar thread, but it's more relevant here, and this gave me every reason not to buy XB1: http://imgur.com/s4rFvsn  

 

It seems a 24 hour check is the least of the problems with XB1; Microsoft have become so greedy that I would put nothing past them.  Even the fact that you can't buy one month of Xbox live gold without turning on automatic renewal has been pissing me off for years.  It's a real shame, because I do love Xbox gaming, but this seems more like an attempt at global control than a games console.


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#95 skytiger   Members   -  Reputation: 254

Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:19 AM

And when you ring up to cancel the automatic renewal they deliberately take AGES to process it and try and cancel the associated service (with no refund) even if you have months left ...

 

And it gets worse

 

If your xbox live account has a payment card registered and then removed (so it no longer appears on billing.microsoft.com)

and you cancel your current payment card with the bank (because it is actually easier than ringing M$)

they will try ALL of your previously registered cards until they get the money (which is illegal - but there is nothing you can do)

 

(In my case they used an AMEX card I used once 2 years previously when their VISA thing was broken)

 

And then of course ... XBox has no password protection for payment cards ... only for signing in

This means everytime you use your XBox you also make all your payment cards available ... to your kids

 

Just in my street alone there are 4 families who have multiple £100 bills because of this "feature", myself included

(and mostly it is for game add-ons for games we do not own)

 

Also if you use a payment card to pay for a service on xbox.com

the card details are now available for use on your xbox ... no warning given of course!

 

Don't ever give M$ your payment card details ...

 

Consumers are sheep so nobody cares



#96 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:29 AM

And when you ring up to cancel the automatic renewal they deliberately take AGES to process it and try and cancel the associated service (with no refund) even if you have months left ...
 
And it gets worse

Helpful tip for people. If you want to cancel your payment it's easier to do on xbox.com than over the phone. Though they have gotten better about doing it over the phone. I stopped using their payments a while ago though. I only buy prepaid 12 month cards when they go on sale. Any other way is a total ripoff.
 

I posted this in a similar thread, but it's more relevant here, and this gave me every reason not to buy XB1: http://imgur.com/s4rFvsn

Where as on the Playstation Network or (whatever the Wii has) Indie Developers can self publish...

There are plenty of good sources to source your opinion on why to/not to buy the Xbox One. At least do yourself a service and find one that has even a small idea of what the hell they are talking about. Neither PSN or Wii will let you self publish in any sort of easy fashion. The only console that's let people self-publish so far has been the xbox 360 to my knowledge; I guess the Ouya now too.

#97 Olliepm   Members   -  Reputation: 260

Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:12 AM

At least do yourself a service and find one that has even a small idea of what the hell they are talking about.

Why quote me?  If you dispute what you see in my info source, I'm all ears?  I'd love for all of that not to be true...

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#98 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:48 AM

Why quote me?  If you dispute what you see in my info source, I'm all ears?  I'd love for all of that not to be true...

The quote under yours is from your source, and I said "Neither PSN or Wii will let you self publish in any sort of easy fashion. The only console that's let people self-publish so far has been the xbox 360 to my knowledge; I guess the Ouya now too." in response to it.



#99 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:32 PM

And when you ring up to cancel the automatic renewal they deliberately take AGES to process it and try and cancel the associated service (with no refund) even if you have months left ...

 

And it gets worse

 

If your xbox live account has a payment card registered and then removed (so it no longer appears on billing.microsoft.com)

and you cancel your current payment card with the bank (because it is actually easier than ringing M$)

they will try ALL of your previously registered cards until they get the money (which is illegal - but there is nothing you can do)

 

(In my case they used an AMEX card I used once 2 years previously when their VISA thing was broken)

 

And then of course ... XBox has no password protection for payment cards ... only for signing in

This means everytime you use your XBox you also make all your payment cards available ... to your kids

 

Just in my street alone there are 4 families who have multiple £100 bills because of this "feature", myself included

(and mostly it is for game add-ons for games we do not own)

 

Also if you use a payment card to pay for a service on xbox.com

the card details are now available for use on your xbox ... no warning given of course!

 

Don't ever give M$ your payment card details ...

 

Consumers are sheep so nobody cares

 

Or you could buy prepaid cards (which are cheaper anyway). As far as kids having access to purchases, perhaps you should leverage the ability to use multiple accounts... It's there for a reason. 



#100 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4679

Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:42 PM

Really? I thought they phased out Xbox points and points cards.


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