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Which IDE will make me a better programmer Visual Studio or Eclipse?


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26 replies to this topic

#1 johnnyMakesGames   Members   -  Reputation: 168

Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:01 PM

I understand that these IDEs are tools.  I also understand that a programmer is much more than that IDE, has to be able to solve problems, and all that.  I'm not suggesting that an IDE will make someone better, though it might make the more productive.

 

But, When you get to really understanding what's going on in your application, which will be best?  I always feel like VS is insulating me way too much, but I think that is just a perception.  Eclipse "feels" more, I don't know, close to the language?

 

I am aware of Petzold's old 2005 article.  I don't care much for it.

 

If I'm not programming in C++, C, or Assembly, do Eclipse and/or Visual Studio, keep me too insulated?  Are they both about the same on this note?

 

By "better" I mean understand more about what's really going on under the hood.  Then again, how far can that go?  Do I have to write a compiler in C to feel like a real programmers?  Mine my own ore to build the PC?  Get silicone?



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#2 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:10 PM

I don't think either really coddles you as much as you're saying unless you're using VSes xaml editor or something.

The most important thing they do is stop you from having to go look up the name of that function you made five weeks ago. I like VS personally. They're express editions are pretty slick. But that's in large part because it's what I work with.

#3 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 21323

Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:13 PM

If you are developing on Windows for Windows on any of Visual Studio's languages, then Visual Studio will be the better experience.

If you are developing Java applications then Eclipse will be the better experience.


Both of those scenarios offer great things. Both of those combinations offer ways to edit-and-continue when debugging, making changes to your program without stopping execution. Both of those combinations allow you to debug deeply into issues; either all the way down into the OS for VS/Windows, or all the way into the Java virtual machine with Java/Eclipse.
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#4 johnnyMakesGames   Members   -  Reputation: 168

Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:17 PM

So they are about the same level of abstraction then?  I won't be a better programmer with Eclipse (even on Windows)?



#5 tmccolgan88   Members   -  Reputation: 254

Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:23 PM

Neither will make you "better".  Some people even think that IDE's hinder learning, and say that you should begin programming in a terminal. That is kind of overkill though.  If you want to be a better programmer just make sure you understand what is happening in your code, and research it if you don't.



#6 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4688

Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:41 PM


Neither will make you "better".

 

QFT. QFE.


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#7 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2357

Posted 18 August 2013 - 09:05 PM


By "better" I mean understand more about what's really going on under the hood.  Then again, how far can that go?  Do I have to write a compiler in C to feel like a real programmers?  Mine my own ore to build the PC?  Get silicone?

 

Do you really care? You don't need to be a great mechanic to be a great driver. You don't need to be a luthier to be a guitarist.

 

There's nothing wrong with learning low-level stuff and it certainly won't hurt, but it's not necessarily what you're looking to do.


if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

#8 alnite   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2108

Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:13 AM

I have never been a fan of Eclipse.  It has raised so many false alarms on me, flagging errors in code, while nothing was really wrong.  I feel that Eclipse has been really buggy to me.

 

Needless to say, I have spent hours figuring out these false alarms, while the fix was simply to reload Eclipse.  That's not cool.



#9 Net Gnome   Members   -  Reputation: 769

Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:38 AM

If you're looking to learn about WHY the code works, then you need to go into a much deeper dive into the inner workings of the OS and computer architectures. On windows, you're best bet is that you'll learn by something telling you how/why it works, unless you work at MS, then you'll -know- how/why it works. For Linux, there is stuff like LFS, which you'll be able to learn and know how/why your OS works.

 

Will learning that make you a better developer? Maybe. It all depends on what you're doing. Almost all of that is too much info for a business app developer. But if you're doing interesting things with your computer, or chasing some really nasty bug, then that info can become invaluable and a huge time saver.

 

Will your IDE guide you in any of that? Nope, its not its job.


Edited by Net Gnome, 19 August 2013 - 09:40 AM.


#10 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1525

Posted 19 August 2013 - 11:57 AM

My opinion ?

Eclipse doesn't force you to use Micro$oft exclusive libraries when compiling  ... Visual Studio forces you to include include "Redistributable" along with your compiled work.

 

 For me Eclipse is a much better work environment, than Visual Studio any way.


Edited by Shippou, 19 August 2013 - 12:01 PM.

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#11 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:00 PM

My opinion ?

Eclipse doesn't force you to use Micro$oft exclusive libraries when compiling  ... Visual Studio forces you to include include "Redistributable" along with your compiled work.

That's language dependent isn't it?



#12 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1525

Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:03 PM

 

My opinion ?

Eclipse doesn't force you to use Micro$oft exclusive libraries when compiling  ... Visual Studio forces you to include include "Redistributable" along with your compiled work.

That's language dependent isn't it?

 

Visual ... C , C++, C#, F#,  Basic .... all compile using MS libraries. ( I use QT for C++ to avoid this problem)


Edited by Shippou, 19 August 2013 - 12:04 PM.

 Reactions To Technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#13 RivieraKid   Members   -  Reputation: 375

Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:07 PM

My opinion ?

Eclipse doesn't force you to use Micro$oft exclusive libraries when compiling  ... Visual Studio forces you to include include "Redistributable" along with your compiled work.

 

I think your referring to the prerequisite of .net framework, Java Runtime is also a prerequisite for Java.  What is your point?

 

Do you need to give out a redistributable when you make a html website with visual studio? No.



#14 RivieraKid   Members   -  Reputation: 375

Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:10 PM

 

 

My opinion ?

Eclipse doesn't force you to use Micro$oft exclusive libraries when compiling  ... Visual Studio forces you to include include "Redistributable" along with your compiled work.

That's language dependent isn't it?

 

Visual ... C , C++, C#, F#,  Basic .... all compile using MS libraries. ( I use QT for C++ to avoid this problem)

 

C#, F#, VB and many others all run on the same platform, its actually pretty awesome. MS Libraries are not a "problem", they actually have a much better standard to Java libraries, I've seen null parameters for a constructor expected in Java libs, had me going around in circles.



#15 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1525

Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:12 PM

 

 

 

My opinion ?

Eclipse doesn't force you to use Micro$oft exclusive libraries when compiling  ... Visual Studio forces you to include include "Redistributable" along with your compiled work.

That's language dependent isn't it?

 

Visual ... C , C++, C#, F#,  Basic .... all compile using MS libraries. ( I use QT for C++ to avoid this problem)

 

C#, F#, VB and many others all run on the same platform, its actually pretty awesome. MS Libraries are not a "problem", they actually have a much better standard to Java libraries, I've seen null parameters for a constructor expected in Java libs, had me going around in circles.

 

Say that when trying to adapt your program for a Mac or Linux platform.

 Don't get me started on the workarounds that kill the program's performance .

 

 BTW under the fine print, Micro$oft does ** NOT ** allow you to resell closed source Visual Studio programs without a license.


Edited by Shippou, 19 August 2013 - 01:13 PM.

 Reactions To Technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#16 tstrimple   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1718

Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:51 PM

Say that when trying to adapt your program for a Mac or Linux platform.

 Don't get me started on the workarounds that kill the program's performance .

 

 BTW under the fine print, Micro$oft does ** NOT ** allow you to resell closed source Visual Studio programs without a license.

 

 

Given your continued use of dollar signs when referring to Microsoft, your hilarious bias and inaccurate information shouldn't be surprising. Perhaps you should re-read those EULAs and stop spreading FUD.



#17 mhagain   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7978

Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:51 PM

BTW under the fine print, Micro$oft does ** NOT ** allow you to resell closed source Visual Studio programs without a license.

 

 

That's just nonsense; even the Express versions of Visual Studio allow you to sell your program comercially.

 

The old "$" thing is just uncool, by the way; definitely showing some prejudice there - uniformed prejudice too - if you think your preferred platform is superior you shouldn't need to spread FUD in order to support it.


It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.


#18 Dwarf King   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1855

Posted 19 August 2013 - 02:07 PM


BTW under the fine print, Micro$oft does ** NOT ** allow you to resell closed source Visual Studio programs without a license.
 

 

Are you sure about that?

 

Why don't look at this: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/3030a179-f7be-4f40-84ff-debd6d290b2c/visual-studio-express-2010-commercial-use-


Edited by Dwarf King, 19 August 2013 - 02:09 PM.

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#19 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1525

Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:25 PM

You posted a link to a forum ...

 

Here is directly from the end user agreement

 

PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE LIMITATION.

Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services obtained from the Services.

 


 Reactions To Technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#20 mhagain   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7978

Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:47 PM

 

You posted a link to a forum ...

 

Here is directly from the end user agreement

 

PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE LIMITATION.

Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services obtained from the Services.

 

 

And you have provided absolutely nothing to back this up.  A quick Google for the first few words from your quote shows that to be standard boilerplate text in almost every single EULA out there, so it signifies absolutely nothing.  You're also conveniently ignoring the "unless otherwise specified" part.

 

Meanwhile, and although the page has since disappeared from Microsoft's website, thanks to the magic of the Wayback Machine we can see exactly what it said about the Express editions: http://web.archive.org/web/20100124084454/http://www.microsoft.com/express/Support/Support-faq.aspx

 

 

Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?
Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built using Visual Studio Express Editions.

 

So it's probably best to drop the uninformed nonsense roundabout now before you make an even bigger fool of yourself over this.


It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.





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