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Banner advertising on our site currently available from just $5! # Steve Ballmer leaves Microsoft Old topic! Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic. 87 replies to this topic ### #21tstrimple Prime Members - Reputation: 1741 Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:26 PM I also don't like the direction Windows 8 is going (and so haven't used it, and will wait and see how Win9 turns out), It's amazing the overlap between the number of people who don't like Windows 8 and those who haven't used it. Sponsor: ### #22Servant of the Lord Crossbones+ - Reputation: 21881 Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:42 PM I also don't like the direction Windows 8 is going (and so haven't used it, and will wait and see how Win9 turns out), It's amazing the overlap between the number of people who don't like Windows 8 and those who haven't used it. Not really. If someone thinks a product is bad, why would they spend money on it on the off-chance they'd be surprised otherwise? "Hmm, based on what I hear, product X is not to my liking... But what the heck! Let's spend money on it anyway, instead of other stuff that I do think I'd enjoy." Besides, if you read my whole (admittedly long) post, I didn't say I think Windows 8 is bad. I said: "Because Windows 8 has a good deal of consumer-focus, and I consume little and focus on producing, it doesn't offer me enough improvements over Win7 to upgrade - though it does offer a few. If I switched, I'm confident I'd adapt to it easily and be pleased with it, but I can wait for Win9. Looking at Win8, there's also the more surfacing signs of Microsoft's future strategies that I'm not liking and don't want to actively support until left with no other choice; but that's a philosophical aside." I think the parts of Windows 8 that I'd use (as someone more producer-focused) is an incremental upgrade over Windows 7, just as Windows 7 was over Windows Vista. I explicitly said think I'd easily get used to, and enjoy, Windows 8. The line you quoted, I should clarify as: I don't like the direction of Microsoft's long-term business plans for consumers are going, from the direction I think I see they are going in what I've read of Windows 8 both online and from Microsoft's own information about their OS, but that this is a more philosophical reason for not immediately embracing Windows 8, and doesn't directly have to do with the quality of the software itself. But we've discussed that in other Windows 8 focused threads back when the OS was released. Edited by Servant of the Lord, 23 August 2013 - 03:43 PM. It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time. All glory be to the Man at the right hand... On David's throne the King will reign, and the Government will rest upon His shoulders. All the earth will see the salvation of God. Of Stranger Flames - [Need web hosting? I personally like A Small Orange] ### #23tstrimple Prime Members - Reputation: 1741 Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:45 PM I also don't like the direction Windows 8 is going (and so haven't used it, and will wait and see how Win9 turns out), It's amazing the overlap between the number of people who don't like Windows 8 and those who haven't used it. Not really. If someone thinks a product is bad, why would they spend money on it on the off-chance they'd be surprised otherwise? "Hmm, based on what I hear, product X is not to my liking... But what the heck! Let's spend money on it anyway, instead of other stuff that I do think I'd enjoy." You're right on the payment front. I forget sometimes that people pay for Microsoft software! There are so many ways to get free versions (legally) that I haven't purchased a Windows OS in years. ### #24Servant of the Lord Crossbones+ - Reputation: 21881 Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:52 PM You're right on the payment front. I forget sometimes that people pay for Microsoft software! There are so many ways to get free versions (legally) that I haven't purchased a Windows OS in years. ...? I'm interested. The only way I know to get "free" Windows OSes is by buying an OEM machine (OS price included in the product) or being a Microsoft MSDN subscriber (>$700 a year).

How do you get free OSes and Office and such?

It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
All glory be to the Man at the right hand... On David's throne the King will reign, and the Government will rest upon His shoulders. All the earth will see the salvation of God.
Of Stranger Flames -

[Need web hosting? I personally like A Small Orange]

### #25HappyCoder  Members   -  Reputation: 2924

Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:55 PM

I think it will be interesting to see how things shape out. I wonder how much influence he actually had with the products. I guess we will see what changes we see in Microsoft. I personally think Microsoft's biggest problem right now is marketing and PR. I own a windows phone and am quite happy with it. It has a great interface and is a very capable device. It just lacks the sales and apps. However, its market share is growing. I would agree that windows 8 isn't spectacular but there are things I like about it. I am actually typing this post on a surface pro with the tactile keyboard attachment. I think the surface pro is a great union of a laptop and a tablet. It is capable of running existing windows apps and games like StarCraft II, and can still be used for more tablet friendly functions like eBooks and touch screen apps. I definitely don't think the pro is right for everybody and frankly I enjoy developing software on my laptop more because it has a larger keyboard and a much better trackpad. So I wouldn't consider the products that Microsoft has produced to be failures. I think their failure to get better market penetration is due to shortcomings in marketing. That is my take on it anyway.

Back on the subject of Ballmer. He made great contributions to Microsoft. He will always be remembered

### #26mhagain  Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8568

Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:07 PM

I also don't like the direction Windows 8 is going (and so haven't used it, and will wait and see how Win9 turns out),

It's amazing the overlap between the number of people who don't like Windows 8 and those who haven't used it.

I've used Windows 8.  I've also used Windows Server 2012.  Don't like either, and the (admittedly very selfish) reason is that the UI paradigm is a significant decrease in productivity for the kind of work I do.  I do accept that I'm not everybody and that what does or doesn't suit me is not some kind of universal truth.  None of that changes the fact that it rankles.

On the other hand Windows Phone 8 is good, and the Metro interface does work well in Office 2013.  But for server management and network admin the 8/2012 UI is incredibly poor and should never have happened.

It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.

### #27phantom  Moderators   -  Reputation: 7952

Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:20 PM

Win95 did have its issues, but Win98 (and Win98SE even more so) was actually quite usable at its time. Maybe not by today's standards, but at that time, it was kind of OK. Windows XP was just awesome, although a bit barebones here and there. I'm still using XP on one machine, and it works quite acceptably for a 12 year old OS.

Every time I read this I can't help but laugh... at XP's release the general feel was 'omg, why do I want this bloated overly bright OS?' ('Tellytubby' like was a phrase I heard often, but I don't know how well that translates outside the UK) and a chorus of "I'll stick with Win98/2k" (depending on your flavour).

Vista gets released and suddenly 'XP is the best OS evah!'... (Vista, for all its flaws, was a solid OS - the biggest problem it had was major companies *koff-nVidia-koff* apparently forgot how to make drivers which wouldn't take down a system if you looked at it wrong..)

Now, I'm not going to try and convince people that Win8 is 'the best OS evah!' but personally I've been using it since launch and the OS itself IS better than Win7 (look into some of the Kernel level improvements if you don't believe me) and at the desk top some things are nicer (I prefer the solid colours to Win7's glass; the task manager is noticeably better; the OS is noticeably snappier) and that's why I find statements like "mouse is being sabotaged" moronic as mouse input works just as before... hell, with the exception of the missing start button (which, yes, I have replaced with Start8 which grants me the net effect of pretty much never seeing the Metro UI) the desktop is just the same as before.

(As to the Office charge; I use Office365 - mostly I use word but despite having my reservations before trying it over all I like the experience; certainly for just sitting down and writing it's very nice, including little touches like the cursor not 'jumping' but 'flowing' forward as you type which, tbh, is the kind of touch I'd expect from Apple. Add to that the web install+update+sync is utterly painless its by far the best version of Office I've used and you'll have to go some to convince me that the free alternatives are better.)

### #28tstrimple  Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1741

Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:42 PM

You're right on the payment front. I forget sometimes that people pay for Microsoft software! There are so many ways to get free versions (legally) that I haven't purchased a Windows OS in years.

...? I'm interested.

### #35ScottK  Members   -  Reputation: 255

Posted 25 August 2013 - 10:57 AM

It only is a matter of time before Linux does the same in the PC space.

I do not see this happening anytime soon. Some Linux distros are quite good but they all have a learning curve that the masses are not going to want to adapt to. IMO Linux distros are all one big cluster F!! there are just too many (and a lot of them bad) to ever create a viable replacement to windows.

In all honesty Microsoft needs to adapt to the modern market and redesign their payment systems. The fact is no one wants to keep shoving out over a hundred dollars for a new OS every couple of years. Microsoft needs to learn that free can earn them more money if done correctly. I say Windows home should be free, Pro 20 bucks, and Ultimate 45 bucks. This should be pushed though to all of their products. They have earned quite the reputation being as nothing more than a company that only wants to take you for every dollar you have (A good note on this is that is the goal for every company but when the masses recognize it it becomes a bad thing).

### #36BGB  Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1554

Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:42 AM

In my opinion, no matter who the CEO is, Microsoft will go the way of the dodo. This because in the end they are not needed anymore. They don't manufacture hardware like Samsung and other companies do, and with things like Linux and Android out there, companies like Samsung (I use Samsung purely for example) can manufacture products with a familiar software environment and not have to pay royalties for it or require their consumers to buy a $99 OS. I think hardware companies are seeing this, and Android has already come to dominate the mobile space. It only is a matter of time before Linux does the same in the PC space. Linux has some problems for the desktop space (vs Windows): there are some notable architectural issues in the OS (mostly at the distro level) which basically get in the way of general-purpose software distribution and installation; backwards compatibility has generally been a bit rocky (sometimes old source breaks, old binaries breaking is pretty much standard); the GUI subsystem is kind of a mess; most stuff in the GUI "generally kinds of sucks" vs its Windows analogues; ... sadly, probably about the only real "good" way to build a desktop OS out of Linux would basically be to tear a lot of it down, and basically build a more Windows-like environment on top of the Linux kernel. this wouldn't require "abandoning" everything, but wouldn't be a small project either as it would likely involve a pretty fundamental set of reorganizations (rather than simply cosmetic tweaks for the GUI), and probably a fair bit of tweaking to existing software, ... then face the issues of having a Linux distro where most existing Linux software wont build for it without modification, possibly existing './configure' scripts don't work, ... "what do you mean we don't install all our user-application binaries in '/usr/bin/' and put all user-app config files in '/usr/etc/' and all libraries in '/lib/' or '/usr/lib/' ... ?! why should we want to install stuff into '/ProgramFiles/myapp/' and '/AppData/myapp/' ?! why does it not use X.Org and GNOME ?! ..." but, ultimately, changes in some areas would be needed to make 3rd party app installation work well, probably with most of the traditional directories "/bin/", "/lib/", ... if still present, being reserved mostly for OS files, rather than user-applications. well, and actually making a distinction between the OS and 3rd party applications in the first-place, ... better yet if new versions of the OS don't break existing binaries, ... while Windows isn't perfect, at the basic levels, most things at least work pretty solidly. ### #37 fir Members - Reputation: -460 Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:00 PM When switching to XP, my initial thought after previously having seen it from far was "meh, silly round windows, looks like plastic... but hum...". This plastic looks was not nice to me too, but XP showed to be quite 'stable' - I would like to call it half-stable, though. I could use it without single reinstallation, 5 years of somewhat mussy and heavy usage, (lost my installation cd), and it still worked (mostly) and do not slow down too much. XP is internally ugly and has a sluggish shell (as tu ugliness, I distaste the Documents And Settings hierarchy ,the way of applying the settings in windows -it is just horrible and trash) -- but as a coding or workin environment it can eventually be set up and can be treated as a family old car you get accustomed too) I was using mas os x some time and also disliked the shell of it - in the windows at least there one can use Total Commander as a shell when working with files who got reasonable response times Years ago in the time ow windows 95 I remember there was some information I read that the windows shell (explorer.exe) can be fully replaced with the shels you like but where tf it is? (In the times of windows95 I got some coll thing called virtual screen, (few people seen that I think becouse I could enable this with my graphic card drivers (trident something)) it was absolutely fluid working (it was hardware accelerated) desktop many times larger than the physical desktop size, whose physical you can move by mouse as a viewport over the big one (windows of the programs you can also make many times bigger than physical) - it was nice to get a couple of times bigger desktop than this sad physical one here ### #38orangecat Members - Reputation: 145 Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:25 PM It only is a matter of time before Linux does the same in the PC space. I do not see this happening anytime soon. Some Linux distros are quite good but they all have a learning curve that the masses are not going to want to adapt to. IMO Linux distros are all one big cluster F!! there are just too many (and a lot of them bad) to ever create a viable replacement to windows. In all honesty Microsoft needs to adapt to the modern market and redesign their payment systems. The fact is no one wants to keep shoving out over a hundred dollars for a new OS every couple of years. Microsoft needs to learn that free can earn them more money if done correctly. I say Windows home should be free, Pro 20 bucks, and Ultimate 45 bucks. This should be pushed though to all of their products. They have earned quite the reputation being as nothing more than a company that only wants to take you for every dollar you have (A good note on this is that is the goal for every company but when the masses recognize it it becomes a bad thing). Linux does not have a larger learning curve than windows, most people have just been using Windows much longer. It's called the baby duck syndrome. Unless you're mucking around in the terminal a lot, I'd go as far to say that Ubuntu is far easier for someone who has never used a PC before than windows -- my 61 year old mother had no problem with it at least, she has never really used a computer before and figured out on her own how to use the software center by herself. I'd be mighty impressed if someone could figure out how to install software on windows on their own while avoiding being infected by spyware and viruses from downloading random things on the internet. In my opinion, no matter who the CEO is, Microsoft will go the way of the dodo. This because in the end they are not needed anymore. They don't manufacture hardware like Samsung and other companies do, and with things like Linux and Android out there, companies like Samsung (I use Samsung purely for example) can manufacture products with a familiar software environment and not have to pay royalties for it or require their consumers to buy a$99 OS. I think hardware companies are seeing this, and Android has already come to dominate the mobile space. It only is a matter of time before Linux does the same in the PC space.

Linux has some problems for the desktop space (vs Windows):

there are some notable architectural issues in the OS (mostly at the distro level) which basically get in the way of general-purpose software distribution and installation;

backwards compatibility has generally been a bit rocky (sometimes old source breaks, old binaries breaking is pretty much standard);

the GUI subsystem is kind of a mess;

most stuff in the GUI "generally kinds of sucks" vs its Windows analogues;

. . .

Did you really just say windows has better backwards compatibility than linux?

I can't even run old windows games on my windows 7 PC, games like age of empires 2 or baldur's gate flat out refuse to work(Ironic considering AoE is made by microsoft). Not to mention there's ZERO compatibility with dos. I'd like to just take a moment to point out that these games actually run on Wine, that's ridiculous!

I can run Rogue on my linux work computer, a binary compiled in 1992, running on a computer using Linux kernel 3.8.

Windows wins in the third-party support department, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me of any other area.

Edited by orangecat, 25 August 2013 - 12:39 PM.

### #39cowsarenotevil  Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2138

Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:26 PM

Booting takes twice as long when "docked" as compared to when "not docked" (i.e. without the keyboard). Why, nobody can figure. Shutting down and undocking (or docking), then turning on again bluescreens. Apparently you're not allowed to remove plug-and-play hardware while the computer is turned off, WTF?

Docking during boot bluescreens on about 1 in 10 attempts. In comparison to the above, that's pretty stable, but still WTF. Docking/undocking during "normal operation" works without any issues. No single problem doing it a hundred times in a row. WTF?

Pressing the "off button" on the top of the device puts Windows in "power save", whatever that means (presumably something like S3?). Except it doesn't. Left like this over night, the device has an empty battery the next morning. Turns out that the NAS which is on the local network has audio streaming capabilities, and Win8 keeps WiFi up and running all the time and does some shitfuck polling on the media server every few seconds, which very reliably drains the battery. Awesome. I'm not even interested in media serving.

Booting takes close to (and sometimes upwards of) one minute. What the...? Turns out that once you disable the superfetch service (which according to MS should disable itself automatically on SSD), it "boots" in 7 seconds, but still it hangs for about 30 seconds during login. You wait and wonder whether the gesture you made was well recognized or not (which is an annoying game, too). Once you disable the indexer service as well, it boots in 7 seconds and login takes under 1 second. Seriously, what the fuck?

Login gestures themselves are another topic one could rant about for an hour. How hard can it be to draw three lines wrongly? Apparently it's not very hard to do wrong, because I still need 2-3 attempts after weeks of training.

So you're allowed to change the lock screen, great. Except when you have 2 users on your tablet (of which only one has admin rights and the right to change the lock screen), it won't work. And, except it doesn't work reliably anyway. Win8 always loads and displays the default lock screen first, and then loads the one you configured half a second later. Now you're going to say that this is a very unimportant detail, and it really is. However, it shows how pathetically unfinished the product is, even in petty details.
The same goes for the desktop wallpaper. Win7 was perfectly able to do a smooth transition from the login page to the readily loaded as-is desktop including wallpaper. Of course, what else. Win8 will show a solid color desktop, and then load the wallpaper. Even if the computer has been up for minutes and it shows the wallpaper correctly in Metro's "Desktop" tile.

It's interesting that I have exactly none of these problems. I'm using Windows 8 as my primary OS on a MacBook.

I get the sense from people that there are a lot of situations where Windows 8 doesn't work that well, but I haven't experienced any of them yet. In fact, on every computer I've used that's had both Windows 7 and Windows 8 (not necessarily at the same time), Windows 8 has been much more stable. Maybe it's just that Windows 8 comes standard on a lot of poorly-configured hardware. I don't know.

-~-The Cow of Darkness-~-

### #40BGB  Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1554

Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:20 PM

It only is a matter of time before Linux does the same in the PC space.

I do not see this happening anytime soon. Some Linux distros are quite good but they all have a learning curve that the masses are not going to want to adapt to. IMO Linux distros are all one big cluster F!! there are just too many (and a lot of them bad) to ever create a viable replacement to windows.

In all honesty Microsoft needs to adapt to the modern market and redesign their payment systems. The fact is no one wants to keep shoving out over a hundred dollars for a new OS every couple of years. Microsoft needs to learn that free can earn them more money if done correctly. I say Windows home should be free, Pro 20 bucks, and Ultimate 45 bucks. This should be pushed though to all of their products. They have earned quite the reputation being as nothing more than a company that only wants to take you for every dollar you have (A good note on this is that is the goal for every company but when the masses recognize it it becomes a bad thing).

Linux does not have a larger learning curve than windows, most people have just been using Windows much longer. It's called the baby duck syndrome. Unless you're mucking around in the terminal a lot, I'd go as far to say that Ubuntu is far easier for someone who has never used a PC before than windows -- my 61 year old mother had no problem with it at least, she has never really used a computer before and figured out on her own how to use the software center by herself. I'd be mighty impressed if someone could figure out how to install software on windows on their own while avoiding being infected by spyware and viruses from downloading random things on the internet.

In my opinion, no matter who the CEO is, Microsoft will go the way of the dodo. This because in the end they are not needed anymore. They don't manufacture hardware like Samsung and other companies do, and with things like Linux and Android out there, companies like Samsung (I use Samsung purely for example) can manufacture products with a familiar software environment and not have to pay royalties for it or require their consumers to buy a \$99 OS. I think hardware companies are seeing this, and Android has already come to dominate the mobile space. It only is a matter of time before Linux does the same in the PC space.

Linux has some problems for the desktop space (vs Windows):

there are some notable architectural issues in the OS (mostly at the distro level) which basically get in the way of general-purpose software distribution and installation;

backwards compatibility has generally been a bit rocky (sometimes old source breaks, old binaries breaking is pretty much standard);

the GUI subsystem is kind of a mess;

most stuff in the GUI "generally kinds of sucks" vs its Windows analogues;

. . .

Did you really just say windows has better backwards compatibility than linux?

I can't even run old windows games on my windows 7 PC, games like age of empires 2 or baldur's gate flat out refuse to work(Ironic considering AoE is made by microsoft). Not to mention there's ZERO compatibility with dos. I'd like to just take a moment to point out that these games actually run on Wine, that's ridiculous!

I can run Rogue on my linux work computer, a binary compiled in 1992, running on a computer using Linux kernel 3.8.

Windows wins in the third-party support department, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me of any other area.

the issue with Linux and backwards compatibility is that the distros tend to do a bad job with library version issues, and often the maintainers for various 3rd party libraries often make changes which break binary compatibility with existing app binaries (particularly WRT GNOME-related libraries).

(this is primarily an issue for programs using dynamic-linking, statically-linked apps tend to be a little more robust, but this is more limiting in many regards).

using a binary compiled for one distro with another distro is generally problematic as well.

IME, typically many 64-bit distros also lack *any* support for 32-bit binaries.

...

(AFAIK: the kernel supports 32-bit binaries in 64-bit mode, but generally 64-bit distros will omit any 32-bit shared-libraries or loader support, or may sometimes only offer it as an optional package requiring manual installation).

in contrast, Windows 7/8 x64 generally directly run most apps with binaries going back to the late 1990s without much issue (or, IOW, most 32-bit apps still work).

the loss of DOS and Win16 support was a problem on MS's part, but there is still the option of running emulators.

so, apart from needing an emulator, I can still run DOS games and Win16 apps pretty much fine.

on Linux, a person also needs an emulator for DOS or any Windows apps, so it doesn't gain any points there.

Edited by cr88192, 25 August 2013 - 01:56 PM.

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