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Banner advertising on our site currently available from just $5! # Steve Ballmer leaves Microsoft Old topic! Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic. 87 replies to this topic ### #41RivieraKid Members - Reputation: 379 Posted 25 August 2013 - 02:46 PM In my opinion, no matter who the CEO is, Microsoft will go the way of the dodo. This because in the end they are not needed anymore. They don't manufacture hardware like Samsung and other companies do, and with things like Linux and Android out there, companies like Samsung (I use Samsung purely for example) can manufacture products with a familiar software environment and not have to pay royalties for it or require their consumers to buy a$99 OS. I think hardware companies are seeing this, and Android has already come to dominate the mobile space. It only is a matter of time before Linux does the same in the PC space.

Microsoft make most of their money from B2B sales and windows phone 8 is growing extremely fast. http://bgr.com/2013/07/09/windows-phone-russian-market-share/

Microsoft is kicking the crap out of Oracle, this is where most of their growth in revenue has come from despite windows server 2012 obvious flaws.

Microsoft is not a 1 trick pony and their share price always remains quite stable because of their diversification. They have tonnes of spare cash (not as much as apple mind) and a healthy balance sheet. They aren't going anywhere.

Edited by RivieraKid, 25 August 2013 - 02:46 PM.

### #42orangecat  Members   -  Reputation: 145

Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:12 PM

In my opinion, no matter who the CEO is, Microsoft will go the way of the dodo. This because in the end they are not needed anymore. They don't manufacture hardware like Samsung and other companies do, and with things like Linux and Android out there, companies like Samsung (I use Samsung purely for example) can manufacture products with a familiar software environment and not have to pay royalties for it or require their consumers to buy a $99 OS. I think hardware companies are seeing this, and Android has already come to dominate the mobile space. It only is a matter of time before Linux does the same in the PC space. Microsoft make most of their money from B2B sales and windows phone 8 is growing extremely fast. http://bgr.com/2013/07/09/windows-phone-russian-market-share/ Microsoft is kicking the crap out of Oracle, this is where most of their growth in revenue has come from despite windows server 2012 obvious flaws. Microsoft is not a 1 trick pony and their share price always remains quite stable because of their diversification. They have tonnes of spare cash (not as much as apple mind) and a healthy balance sheet. They aren't going anywhere. Windows phones sales are going up because they're selling them at a loss... and nobody still really wants them. I wouldn't be surprised if Firefox phones surpass them in popularity a few months after they really hit the market. I guess we're not going to discuss the fact that Microsoft is being sued for flat out lying about their abysmal sales figures? Edited by orangecat, 25 August 2013 - 03:17 PM. ### #43phantom Moderators - Reputation: 8447 Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:46 PM Windows phones sales are going up because they're selling them at a loss... And...? The Xbox and PS3 were both sold at a loss. iPhones and Android devices are subsidised by contracts constantly - and also, in the UK at least, cost around the same price as a WP8 device, at least they did when my choice was between an Galaxy S4 and a 920 last year, which means the consumers which are buying the phones at the same price as the existing brands. The biggest problem MS have is that they are entering an already entrenched market which is why they have to see this as a long term project - still, WP8 is third in the world market over turning Blackberry and still growing (although to what extent world wide varies depending on the article you read) so it isn't a done deal yet. Personally I wouldn't trade my WP8 device for an iPhone or Android device right now (and, depending on the 2nd generation details I would give serious consideration to an Win8 based tablet, my current Galaxy Tab 10.1 is getting a bit long in the tooth)... a year from now when my contract is up and I can renew? Who knows, maybe someone will offer something and I'll swap again. ### #44phantom Moderators - Reputation: 8447 Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:49 PM It only is a matter of time before Linux does the same in the PC space. Huh.. I just realised that it's nearly 15 years since I first heard the phrase 'year of the Linux desktop'... ### #45phantom Moderators - Reputation: 8447 Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:54 PM In all honesty Microsoft needs to adapt to the modern market and redesign their payment systems. The fact is no one wants to keep shoving out over a hundred dollars for a new OS every couple of years. Microsoft needs to learn that free can earn them more money if done correctly. I say Windows home should be free, Pro 20 bucks, and Ultimate 45 bucks. This should be pushed though to all of their products. I think there is signs of them heading broadly in that direction; I got Win8 Pro for £25 (in fact it was so cheap I brought it twice; once for my main, once for my laptop) and Office365 is the signs of a software as a service setup going forward. VS already ships with free versions but I'd like them to add 'pro' to the subscription list as well - most so if they are going to update it every year going forward; Paying £10/month is much easier to swallow than the idea of paying ~£400 or more every year or two. The recent changes seem to indicate that, internally, they do recognise the need to change how they do things it'll be interesting to see how that works out long term. ### #46phantom Moderators - Reputation: 8447 Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:58 PM I get the sense from people that there are a lot of situations where Windows 8 doesn't work that well, but I haven't experienced any of them yet. In fact, on every computer I've used that's had both Windows 7 and Windows 8 (not necessarily at the same time), Windows 8 has been much more stable. Maybe it's just that Windows 8 comes standard on a lot of poorly-configured hardware. I don't know. I'm running Win8 on a laptop which started out life as a Win Vista machine (4gig, Core2Duo, from around Dec 2008), moved to Win7 and then Win8 and works perfectly (well, the laptop's battery has long since died but 17" 1920*1200 laptops are so hard to find these days).. certainly no slower than Win7, maybe even faster... (although it's hard to tell as it's using SSDs after an upgrade so it was always pretty quick). ### #47orangecat Members - Reputation: 145 Posted 25 August 2013 - 04:02 PM It only is a matter of time before Linux does the same in the PC space. Huh.. I just realised that it's nearly 15 years since I first heard the phrase 'year of the Linux desktop'... Maybe you should read it again considering the best selling laptop on Amazon for almost a year runs linux. I'm not sure why people are so pro Microsoft, I guess closed source walled gardens are fun? Or are we still being convinced that open source can't compete with closed source in smear campaigns? Edited by orangecat, 25 August 2013 - 04:05 PM. ### #48phantom Moderators - Reputation: 8447 Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:18 PM Maybe you should read it again considering the best selling laptop on Amazon for almost a year runs linux. Yes, because one data point clearly proves every thing. But sure... I'll play your game because why not.. Looking at the 'most popular' laptops on the UK amazon site I see; #1 Chrome OS #2, 3, 4 Windows #5 MacBook Pro #6 - 20 Windows #21 MacBook Pro So, if the Chrome OS sells 10 units and the next 3 WinOS based sell 8 units each they are now selling 2.4:1 in favour of WinOS. Throw in the MacPro @ 6 units so it's only slightly behind, then the next 14 @ 2 units (5.2:1 Win vs Chrome), then 1 more for the final MacPro (10:7 in Chromes favour)... and, well, do you see the folly in your argument? And while I wouldn't draw any hard data from it the numbers at the bottom here make the point pretty well on a global scale; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Summary (When I say 'hard data' I mean I wouldn't point at this and say 'Windows has a 91% market share' but it is a good guide to relative selling amounts globally as the error would have to be VERY significant to bring Linux based OSes into contention in that space.) (Most surprising thing for me was the Web server numbers with a ~33% split across the board o.O) I'm not sure why people are so pro Microsoft, I guess closed source walled gardens are fun? Or are we still being convinced that open source can't compete with closed source in smear campaigns? I think you are seeing 'pro MS' statements where none exist; people tend to be pro-getting-shit-done which, more often than not, closed source apps do just fine. I know how Windows works, I install things and they 'just work' so I have no need nor desire to step outside of that world because I can get-shit-done. While it has been some years now my experience with Linux during the early part of this century was nothing but frustration and annoyance at the lack of GUI to do things. A programmer I might well be but, as it was at the time, I have no desire to dick around with text files to do things because someone somewhere decided it was The Best Way To Do It. Maybe this has changed in the last 5+ years since I last had a Linux box spun up but right now my time is limited and so in the battle of 'closed vs open' closed wins as long as it lets me get-shit-done and provides, what is in my opinion, a good user experience. Also no one has shown me that open software CAN compete with the closed software I use; where is open Visual Studio? Where is the open graphics debugging software? Finally you also make an assumption that because people used closed software they are against free and open source software; this isn't true. In my own case I've released code under zlib in the past and when I do so in the future I will continue to do so. The fact I happen to use Windows as my OS of choice has no impact on my over all support of open source software in general. Granted my utter dislike and contempt for the GPL means I'm unlikely to willingly install Linux on a machine again without a damned good reason (such as I've a game I want to sell and I need to test it...) but that's a personal side issue. ### #49ScottK Members - Reputation: 255 Posted 25 August 2013 - 06:12 PM I think there is signs of them heading broadly in that direction; I got Win8 Pro for £25 (in fact it was so cheap I brought it twice; once for my main, once for my laptop) and Office365 is the signs of a software as a service setup going forward. "When does the promotion end?" The last day you'll be able to buy Windows 8 Pro Upgrade for$39.99 is Thursday, January 31st. I'd guess it'll run up to near midnight Pacific Time that evening but I don't know for sure.

How much will Windows 8 cost after the promotion ends?

Here are the estimated retail prices in USD of Windows 8 as of February 1:

Windows 8 Pro Upgrade: $199.99 (I know, big jump, hu?) Windows 8 Upgrade:$119.99
Windows 8 Pro Pack: \$99.99 (upgrades a copy of Windows 8 to Windows 8 Pro)

I see your point the fact is a small promotion is not the solution. A 199.99 upgrade is well overpriced given that windows is on a lot of computers around the world.

### #50Sik_the_hedgehog  Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2000

Posted 25 August 2013 - 06:27 PM

Maybe this has changed in the last 5+ years since I last had a Linux box spun up but right now my time is limited and so in the battle of 'closed vs open' closed wins as long as it lets me get-shit-done and provides, what is in my opinion, a good user experience.

There's a GUI for most things (only the most esoteric stuff can't be done through GUI), the problem is that nobody is going to help you if you ever decide to go that route. Everybody insists on giving out complex stuff to type on the terminal (of course without explaining at all). The end result is that everybody thinks you have to use the terminal and type entire paragraphs worth of commands to do even the simplest of the tasks.

Don't pay much attention to "the hedgehog" in my nick, it's just because "Sik" was already taken =/ By the way, Sik is pronounced like seek, not like sick.

### #51ChaosEngine  Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2902

Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:17 PM

Now, I'm not going to try and convince people that Win8 is 'the best OS evah!' but personally I've been using it since launch and the OS itself IS better than Win7 (look into some of the Kernel level improvements if you don't believe me) and at the desk top some things are nicer (I prefer the solid colours to Win7's glass; the task manager is noticeably better; the OS is noticeably snappier) and that's why I find statements like "mouse is being sabotaged" moronic as mouse input works just as before... hell, with the exception of the missing start button (which, yes, I have replaced with Start8 which grants me the net effect of pretty much never seeing the Metro UI) the desktop is just the same as before.

Don't you think the fact that you have installed software to avoid using the new UI is in itself telling?

Can you imagine someone saying almost 20 years ago "yeah, I like windows 95, but then I mostly just run a command prompt full screen anyway"?

if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

### #52TheChubu  Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6186

Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:45 PM

Maybe this has changed in the last 5+ years since I last had a Linux box spun up but right now my time is limited and so in the battle of 'closed vs open' closed wins as long as it lets me get-shit-done and provides, what is in my opinion, a good user experience.

There's a GUI for most things (only the most esoteric stuff can't be done through GUI),

Unless you use LXDE or something

"I AM ZE EMPRAH OPENGL 3.3 THE CORE, I DEMAND FROM THEE ZE SHADERZ AND MATRIXEZ"

My journals: dustArtemis ECS framework and Making a Terrain Generator

### #53way2lazy2care  Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:08 PM

Don't you think the fact that you have installed software to avoid using the new UI is in itself telling?

Can you imagine someone saying almost 20 years ago "yeah, I like windows 95, but then I mostly just run a command prompt full screen anyway"?

I dunno. There's a lot of good performance improvements even without using that half of the UI.

It is really funny reading old 95/98 vs XP threads because they sound exactly the same as Windows 7/XP vs Windows 8 threads.

### #54tstrimple  Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1742

Posted 25 August 2013 - 10:12 PM

Don't you think the fact that you have installed software to avoid using the new UI is in itself telling?

Can you imagine someone saying almost 20 years ago "yeah, I like windows 95, but then I mostly just run a command prompt full screen anyway"?

Not really. People generally don't like change. It doesn't matter if the new start screen is better or worse than the classic start menu, it's different enough that people don't want to deal with it. I use Windows 8 exactly like I uses Windows 7 and even Windows Vista (and almost exactly like I use OS X). If I want to run an application that isn't pinned to the taskbar I press the Windows key and type part of the application name. This is far superior to trying to navigate through some hierarchical menu to find the application you want to run. The missing "button" is also a complete non-issue. Throw the cursor down to the bottom left of the screen and click, the menu appears. All that was removed was the visual cue. The most annoying thing for me was that it booted into the start screen by default, but that's not much of an issue considering how rarely I actually reboot.

### #55phantom  Moderators   -  Reputation: 8447

Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:40 AM

Don't you think the fact that you have installed software to avoid using the new UI is in itself telling?

Can you imagine someone saying almost 20 years ago "yeah, I like windows 95, but then I mostly just run a command prompt full screen anyway"?

Not really. People generally don't like change. It doesn't matter if the new start screen is better or worse than the classic start menu, it's different enough that people don't want to deal with it. I use Windows 8 exactly like I uses Windows 7 and even Windows Vista (and almost exactly like I use OS X). If I want to run an application that isn't pinned to the taskbar I press the Windows key and type part of the application name.

Yeah, I mostly fall into the "don't want to deal with it" group on my main PC; in fact I mostly do the 'start+type' app launching too for unpinned things. Something about the icon and menu is "comforting" however and I prefer not to annoy my crazy brain ;)

Something I should have included in the post which mentions start8 is that I only do this on my desktop; my laptop is the 'pure' Win8 experience which is requiring some getting use to but for the amount of time I use it in a month is fine. In fact whenever I use it on my laptop I lament the lack of touchscreen input on my laptop as my hands normally rest on the keyboard and it would be so much quicker to poke a tile to launch than navigate the mouse pointer to the app/type the apps name to do so

As to my using start8 at all, I wouldn't have said it was that bigger deal; it's a minor customisation to get the machine working how I like. Given that on previous versions of windows people have replaced the whole front end shell before now I'd argue a little bit of customisation work isn't a big deal.
(Who knows, depending on how the Win8.1 changes work out I there is a chance I could stop using it completely in the long run...)

### #56phantom  Moderators   -  Reputation: 8447

Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:44 AM

I see your point the fact is a small promotion is not the solution. A 199.99 upgrade is well overpriced given that windows is on a lot of computers around the world.

Yeah, I tend to agree more so if MS are going to push out major updates more often, and this is where the whole 'vote with your wallet' thing would hopefully kick in as MS would have sales numbers to work with; if they see all their upgrades happened in that promotion window then I dare say a bean counter somewhere will work out that running it at that point all the time might be a good idea.

Of course if they continued to do a brisk trade (for upgrades) at the full price then, well, the market apparently says 199.99 ISN'T overpriced.

### #57patrrr  Members   -  Reputation: 1122

Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:08 AM

I think you are seeing 'pro MS' statements where none exist; people tend to be pro-getting-shit-done which, more often than not, closed source apps do just fine. I know how Windows works, I install things and they 'just work' so I have no need nor desire to step outside of that world because I can get-shit-done.

Just a question here. Isn't it boring to be so faithful, never treading outside the "given path"? I mean, as a developer, I'm naturally curious and like exploring new things. Sure, it's necessary to Get Things Done, but isn't it also great to learn new ways of Getting It Done? At least it's tons of fun!

### #58phantom  Moderators   -  Reputation: 8447

Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:59 AM

Just a question here. Isn't it boring to be so faithful, never treading outside the "given path"? I mean, as a developer, I'm naturally curious and like exploring new things. Sure, it's necessary to Get Things Done, but isn't it also great to learn new ways of Getting It Done? At least it's tons of fun!

The problem with your question (ignoring the slight dig in the phrase 'given path') is that you have a bias in there already; you assume that because someone sticks to one OS they are not constantly looking for new ways to do things or indeed learning those new ways. (In fact at work I'm one of the few people who TRY to push new things for solving problems instead getting shot down for 'tried and tested methods' even if they are sub-optimal.)

Speaking personally I'm constantly learning new things, be it languages, programming techniques or algorithms; none of these however require a change in my OS to use effectively - if they did then I'd change OS to use them effectively. However for the things I'm interested in and the tools I want to use Windows and the tools it provides suit me just fine.

### #59SimonForsman  Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6637

Posted 26 August 2013 - 03:22 AM

Maybe this has changed in the last 5+ years since I last had a Linux box spun up but right now my time is limited and so in the battle of 'closed vs open' closed wins as long as it lets me get-shit-done and provides, what is in my opinion, a good user experience.

There's a GUI for most things (only the most esoteric stuff can't be done through GUI), the problem is that nobody is going to help you if you ever decide to go that route. Everybody insists on giving out complex stuff to type on the terminal (of course without explaining at all). The end result is that everybody thinks you have to use the terminal and type entire paragraphs worth of commands to do even the simplest of the tasks.

The "complex" commandline stuff is easier than the GUI when you don't know how the users system is configured, If you're using an english verison of Windows then its usually a non issue but for pretty much everyone else it can really be a pain in the ass when Windows users insist on trying to describe a GUI way of doing things instead of just giving you a command to copy&paste.

Edited by SimonForsman, 26 August 2013 - 03:24 AM.

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### #60patrrr  Members   -  Reputation: 1122

Posted 26 August 2013 - 03:24 AM

The problem with your question (ignoring the slight dig in the phrase 'given path') is that you have a bias in there already; you assume that because someone sticks to one OS they are not constantly looking for new ways to do things or indeed learning those new ways. (In fact at work I'm one of the few people who TRY to push new things for solving problems instead getting shot down for 'tried and tested methods' even if they are sub-optimal.)

Speaking personally I'm constantly learning new things, be it languages, programming techniques or algorithms; none of these however require a change in my OS to use effectively - if they did then I'd change OS to use them effectively. However for the things I'm interested in and the tools I want to use Windows and the tools it provides suit me just fine.

That's very much true; the OS often doesn't exclude testing new technology. I find it harder to adopt certain cultures though, for example: the .NET culture wouldn't show its best side if I used something other than Windows and Visual Studio. Ditto with iOS/OS X/Xcode. If I just do some Mono stuff in Linux, I wouldn't get that "cool new" feeling that a new way of doing things would bring.

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