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Open world 3D game without a specific game engine


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#21 fir   Members   -  Reputation: 254

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 10:01 AM

 

But are you sure an engine is what you want? An engine is a multipurpose, reusable tool that provides everything you could conceivably need.

That is what I was trying to say. I didn't thought on building a game engine, at least not a multipurpose, reusable tool that everyone of them tries to be.

I just want to build a game without a game engine. Of course, that involves in building the components that every engine has, but if the base system has only what I need and is build especially for that, that makes it a game engine? If the so called game engine can't live outside of my game, because is the actual game, does it make it a game engine?

I imagine is a lot of work and needs a lot of knowledge and time/years, but it should definitely not be compared with what the big companies do, with an actual game engine, right?

 

I've searched around before posting this topic and from my understanding just because you've made a game from scratch, doesn't mean you have an engine. A game engine is the reusable, configurable and generalized part that can be used to make other games, right?

 

 

imo youre like diver in stupidity (no offence) - iMO it is totally unimportant if you will try to build a big game without engine, with engine, or with open source engine, because you will do nothing (you will not do even an one thousand part of nothing) It is nice to live in dreams, but I am not sure if you should confront this with reality if you wanna live in them because you will lost them so if you want talk crazy dreams state clearly you want to talk about crazy dreams not ask for reality. Dreams are not bad but it seems  that you do not want to go with a true way and state clearly that you do not know almost nothing (and take a book) but cheat and dream. its interesting to read about your dreams but do not cheat that you talking about the real - the reality is your keyboard and simple game you will probably never do (I am working hard for years to make some decent/fine small game)


Edited by fir, 21 September 2013 - 03:38 PM.


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#22 Kaptein   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1514

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 10:19 AM

Let me state clearly what you should be doing:

Year 0:

Install unity, or any other engine that lets you insert models directly and view them as is

Learn to draw

Learn 3dsmax or maya or blender

Learn GIMP/photophail or any other painting program

 

Year 3:

Create professional art assets for your game

The art assets look ok in a game now

 

Year 5:

View your beautiful world (that you cannot interact with, yet...)

 

But so what if you can't interact with it..

 

Year 5.1:

Show other people how serious you are about this project

 

Creating a game engine, then creating a game _AND THEN_ creating art assets that make your game beautiful is something that requires you to work full-time for years

Not to mention the extremely high percentage of people who give up before even getting started, and most of the remaining percentage who give up somewhere underways

 

Take peoples advice, and use something that exists already, focus your energy and time on something that doesn't exist already: Namely the art assets needed for your game. If you are lucky, after a few years of working on these assets maybe a programmer will come along and say - hey, these look really great, they look tailored specifically for a game and I can help you with creating it. Now you can collaborate with others who have taken notice of your exceptional work.

 

And let me put this clearly: Nothing says "I really want to create this game" more than actually creating what you set out to do

No programming necessary

 

Back in the day I made an IRC server (4 years), which no one used.. I made it because I wanted to create it

then i wrote a zelda game engine (5 years), which no one used.. I dont think any other game of that type has the amount of features that i managed to put in

but it became so complicated to use it that even I didn't bother making a game with it ;) (so what, I like creating engines!)

 

and now I'm making a minecraftian voxel game engine of sorts.. Obviously it doesn't even have a name

I just like creating game engines.. I'm on the second year of coding it, and I seriously doubt I will ever even give it a name :)

 

Do you want to create your game this much? That you don't care about anything else.. If you do, you can go ahead and create that engine, then the game, the art, the music and the sound. And that will be the correct decision :)


Edited by Kaptein, 21 September 2013 - 10:26 AM.


#23 Karsten_   Members   -  Reputation: 1203

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 01:21 PM

Umm, honestly an IRC server should not be taking 4 years. A Zelda engine should not be taking 5 years. These sorts of figures are going to scare people away from developing anything themselves.

For 2D, you do not need a game engine (which is why barely any 2D game engines exist). For 3D, a game "engine" (i.e based on OpenGL) that is perfectly acceptable for an indie game should take about 2 months to make.

Artwork will be the main issue in creating a believable world. Unfortunately I (or Unity) cannot help you with this ;)

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#24 fir   Members   -  Reputation: 254

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:22 PM

Umm, honestly an IRC server should not be taking 4 years. A Zelda engine should not be taking 5 years. These sorts of figures are going to scare people away from developing anything themselves.

For 2D, you do not need a game engine (which is why barely any 2D game engines exist). For 3D, a game "engine" (i.e based on OpenGL) that is perfectly acceptable for an indie game should take about 2 months to make.

Artwork will be the main issue in creating a believable world. Unfortunately I (or Unity) cannot help you with this ;)

 

Honestly I disagree that it shouldnt - depends what one do,

The most time take the learning here not doing (writing). 

 

I got some framework for 2d games (maybe somethink like allegro but simpler) and bunch of some simple 2d prototypes (testing for ideas) and it took me a five years (but this five years involve also taking a ground up in general programming )


Edited by fir, 21 September 2013 - 03:32 PM.


#25 Chirieac   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:00 PM

imo youre like diver in stupidity (no offence) - iMO it is totally unimportant if you will try to build a big game without engine, with engine, or with open source engine, because you will do nothing (you will not do even an one thousand part of nothing) [...]  the reality is your keyboard and simple game you will probably never do (I am working hard for years to make some decent/fine small game)

Please let me borrow your crystal ball sometime...

 

Anyway, thank you for your help everyone. I will definitely think more about using an open-source game engine instead of a commercial one. Good luck with your projects!


Edited by Chirieac, 21 September 2013 - 04:01 PM.


#26 fir   Members   -  Reputation: 254

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:31 PM

 

imo youre like diver in stupidity (no offence) - iMO it is totally unimportant if you will try to build a big game without engine, with engine, or with open source engine, because you will do nothing (you will not do even an one thousand part of nothing) [...]  the reality is your keyboard and simple game you will probably never do (I am working hard for years to make some decent/fine small game)

Please let me borrow your crystal ball sometime...

 

Anyway, thank you for your help everyone. I will definitely think more about using an open-source game engine instead of a commercial one. Good luck with your projects!

 

 

It is not from crystall ball but it comes from the notice that you 

like talking crazy about making a big game instead of doing

simple one - So I think youre not interested in reality and you just like crazy dream talking.


Edited by fir, 21 September 2013 - 04:33 PM.


#27 Chirieac   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:56 PM

It is not from crystall bal but it comes from the notice that you 
like talking crazy about making a big game instead of doing
simple one - So I think youre not interested in reality and you just like crazy dream talking.

I didn't said I want to make a big game. Maybe you should pay more attention to what I've said.

Also, just because I'm considering to make a game that seems big, doesn't mean I want to do it now from the start and I didn't asked how to do it.

 

Do I really said crazy things in my posts? What's wrong with dreaming? Everything starts with a dream.

 

I've said:

"Is it possible for an average guy to learn what it needs to learn in order to create a beautiful game without an existing game engine? A game that could look almost as beautiful as CryEngine/Unigine capabilities? Speaking just in terms of technology, not the art content that contribute to the beauty.

Is it possible with so many resources/knowledge available these days on the internet?"

 

I came here asking for good advice to help me to make a good decision before I even begin. I came here to find what's possible and what not. To find why, how hard and how much time could it take.

Some users were kind to push me in the right direction suggesting to use open-source engines if I do not like the commercial ones. They explained to me why is a good idea and I understood. I've asked what involves in being able to use them and to modify them and I've got my answers.

 

So, I have all I need now, thanks!


Edited by Chirieac, 21 September 2013 - 04:58 PM.


#28 fir   Members   -  Reputation: 254

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:44 PM

 

It is not from crystall bal but it comes from the notice that you 
like talking crazy about making a big game instead of doing
simple one - So I think youre not interested in reality and you just like crazy dream talking.

I didn't said I want to make a big game. Maybe you should pay more attention to what I've said.

Also, just because I'm considering to make a game that seems big, doesn't mean I want to do it now from the start and I didn't asked how to do it.

 

Do I really said crazy things in my posts? What's wrong with dreaming? Everything starts with a dream.

 

I've said:

"Is it possible for an average guy to learn what it needs to learn in order to create a beautiful game without an existing game engine? A game that could look almost as beautiful as CryEngine/Unigine capabilities? Speaking just in terms of technology, not the art content that contribute to the beauty.

Is it possible with so many resources/knowledge available these days on the internet?"

 

 

 

 

 

If not a big game what is this :

 

"I've decided that I want to create my own open world 3D game. I want to do this in my own free time, for my own peace of mind. Is not something that I would want to sell to make money. The project needs to be more than just a game. It needs to showcase the beauty of my country, its landscape, its architecture and lost traditions. The world needs to be big (maybe 100km x 70km) and beautiful."

 

the most obscure point in yr attitude is why you do not

 answer to the point of making a small game first (some

like 2d game ?) This is most crazy to me. Could you answer to that?

 

IMO this is most revelant advice - make small game,learn some basic stuff. You seem to ignore such advice and this is really quite dumb. So that if a reason why i say that it seems that you just wanna live in a world of crazy dreams (and talking bullshits)  not learn to code.


Edited by fir, 22 September 2013 - 04:40 PM.


#29 Dwarf King   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1585

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:26 PM

Fir the word you just used are unacceptable.

 

Also the OP got his answers. He is satisfied with the advices he got. Lay down the arms(and bad language).

 

Be friendly and civilized, please.


"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education"

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"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education"

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#30 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 24068

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:46 PM

If you just want to make an open world for the sake of it, then just buy an existing open-world game with modding support (Fallout 3, Arma 3, etc), and use it's tools and engine to make your world.
As a beginner, modding will be far easier than trying to either work from scratch or work with a raw engine without a base game/content on it already.

By picking an existing game that closely resembles the kind you'd like to make, then that part is mostly done, and you can just focus on building your world.
If the setting are similar, then you can also borrow some of the game's art assets instead of making all the art from scratch.


However, do you want to be a programmer or a content creator (artist, level designer)?
In a real games company, those are 3 different roles, because ideally each of those people will have a decade of practice in their field. It's not economical to train someone in programming for a decade and then have them work on buildings/architecture/landscape art ;)

If you want to just focus on the landscapes and cities, then make that your main goal, and de-emphasis any tech/gameplay programming tasks. Again, simply picking up proven tech/gamplay (in the form of a good SDK or appropriate mod tools) is a very valid platform to work from.

#31 fir   Members   -  Reputation: 254

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:49 AM

Fir the word you just used are unacceptable.

 

Also the OP got his answers. He is satisfied with the advices he got. Lay down the arms(and bad language).

 

Be friendly and civilized, please.

 

I am quite friendly, Do not know about which word you are saying but probably the dumb - i had to chose between crazy/insane/dumb (got somewhat weak english) and imo the word dumb is just most appriopriate - The approach to work on big 3d learning big open source engine etc without just learning the basics first is insane/dumb. Also this choices/conclusions of original asker are crazy - To clearly state it imo ist most constructive

 

I find good the answers if he would like to see some game

 he should focus on drawing content only but it seem obvious that he wont do much here to, so it all is just insane talking, what else to say


Edited by fir, 22 September 2013 - 04:37 PM.


#32 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 24068

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:58 AM

^ crazy/insane/dumb are all insulting words in English.

 

In polite conversation it would be better to use a more descriptive word, such as "unwise", "based on an uninformed viewpoint", "foolish" (although that might be too close to calling them a "fool", which again might be insulting).

In any case, it's better to describe the person's actions or choices rather than the person themselves. "Your plan is foolish" is much less of an insult to "You are a fool".



#33 fir   Members   -  Reputation: 254

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:26 AM

^ crazy/insane/dumb are all insulting words in English.

 

In polite conversation it would be better to use a more descriptive word, such as "unwise", "based on an uninformed viewpoint", "foolish" (although that might be too close to calling them a "fool", which again might be insulting).

In any case, it's better to describe the person's actions or choices rather than the person themselves. "Your plan is foolish" is much less of an insult to "You are a fool".

 

Unwise would be appriopriate to something that is unwise,

not dumb and insane. You are not reading carefully I do not find the pleasure in calling the asker insane but was saying that the approach to want to do something advanced without learning the basics is terribly (simply) crazy. (after all it is also getting boring somewhat, and not on technical topic, so do not matter)


Edited by fir, 22 September 2013 - 06:03 AM.


#34 ZachHoefler   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 06:12 PM

I'll put it this way: 6 months of hard-core coding in C++ won't get you as far as like a week of scripting in Unity.

 

That said, there is value in doing what's been done before and learning how everything works. I highly recommend the book Game Coding Complete, if you want a breakdown of a lot of what goes into making a game engine. If what you want to do is just build something for the sake of building it and learning how to do it, doing it all from scratch can be fun! Being able to say "I wrote every part of this" is really satisfying.

 

If your goal is to make a product that eventually gets released, you really ought to just use a game engine. If you want something to do for fun as a hobby, go crazy with learning all of the lower-level stuff that goes on in a game! Though, even if you want to build your own "engine," I'd recommend working with other ones a bit just to see how they work and to get some ideas on how you might structure things.

 

In any case, the scope of your project idea is way too big as-is for something you would want to do alone. The content alone would take a loooong time, let alone the programming. Start smaller and work your way up from there as you build your skills. Given enough time and practice, you could conceivably achieve some cool results, but obviously whatever you make won't be able to compete with something that had dozens of people with expert knowledge working for years. If nothing else, build small tech demos before tackling a big project; 3D is hard.

 

Anyway, the only way to really appreciate the scope of work that goes into existing game engines is to try and do it yourself. Play around with different existing ones, and play around with implementing some of the concepts yourself. You may find yourself thinking "man, this is absurdly difficult and boring, I'm just going to use Unity," or you may find yourself saying "wow, this is awesome! I love graphics programming!". The only way to know what you'll like is to try it out and see.



#35 Chirieac   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 07:40 AM

In any case, the scope of your project idea is way too big as-is for something you would want to do alone. The content alone would take a loooong time, let alone the programming. Start smaller and work your way up from there as you build your skills. Given enough time and practice, you could conceivably achieve some cool results, but obviously whatever you make won't be able to compete with something that had dozens of people with expert knowledge working for years. If nothing else, build small tech demos before tackling a big project; 3D is hard.

I will not be alone for the entire process, but for now I will be the only programmer. In terms of the actual content I will receive help.

I'm planning to start small of course, I will not jump directly into this project. But, this game of mine is my final goal and I needed to find out what path should I follow to get there.

 

If I want to build a game engine myself, even if I could use many existing libraries, I will still need to learn many many things in order to do that.

If I decide to use an open source engine, maybe I do not need to learn as many things like DirectX, but I will need the 3D math and strong programming/C++ skills.

If I decide to use an existing engine, I do not need to learn the low-level stuff, maybe not even C++.

 

So, I've talked about such a big game/project because that's my destination and I wanted to find the path to it. From what I understand there are those 3 options and depending on what I choose my learning path would be different. I'm here to see in what direction should I make the first step.


Edited by Chirieac, 23 September 2013 - 07:46 AM.


#36 andreeaa.alexandraa   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:28 AM

On-topic: Use an open-source engine (some of the bests were already presented by the others) and make your dream come true. There is no point on making everything from scratch.

As you can see there are people around here that spent some years to do what they wanted to do and they did it (finished it). Good luck, "Superman".

 

 

Off-topic: Dear Fir, I can see where you're frustration comes from: "(I am working hard for years to make some decent/fine small game)". From how you're writing I understand why you talk like that. If you can't do it, that doesn't mean the others can't even try. And no, you are not "quite friendly".



#37 Karsten_   Members   -  Reputation: 1203

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:49 AM

If I decide to use an existing engine, I do not need to learn the low-level stuff, maybe not even C++.

You will still need a programming language. C++ is as good as any.

 

What I suggest you do is evaluate some of your options. Dont worry if these are not the exact technologies you want to try. This is research at this stage.

 

Try building a simple cube platform jumper using the following tech.

 

1) Irrlicht - To try out a basic open-source 3D engine (use Ogre 3D if you prefer)

2) OpenGL - Have a look at implementing what you have just created in Irrlicht without using a graphics API directly (use DirectX if you prefer)

3) UDK - Try out a commercial engine (use Unity 3D if you prefer)

 

Once you have implemented all of them. Run them all and decide which one you have the most enthusiasm to extend and use to implement your next project.

 

:)


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#38 Chirieac   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 10:26 AM

 

If I decide to use an existing engine, I do not need to learn the low-level stuff, maybe not even C++.

You will still need a programming language. C++ is as good as any.
 
What I suggest you do is evaluate some of your options. Dont worry if these are not the exact technologies you want to try. This is research at this stage.
 
Try building a simple cube platform jumper using the following tech.
 
1) Irrlicht - To try out a basic open-source 3D engine (use Ogre 3D if you prefer)
2) OpenGL - Have a look at implementing what you have just created in Irrlicht without using a graphics API directly (use DirectX if you prefer)
3) UDK - Try out a commercial engine (use Unity 3D if you prefer)
 
Once you have implemented all of them. Run them all and decide which one you have the most enthusiasm to extend and use to implement your next project.
 
smile.png

 


Yes, I know I still need a programming language, but I was referring to Unity that uses C# which is considered a more high-level language than C++. Of course, Unity offers the possibility to write plugins using C++, but it's not necessarily needed.

 

Your idea with "simple cube platform jumper" is very good to test all options, thanks. I have been playing around in Unity for a while and with it I think that will definitely be pretty quick to do.

 

First, I will start to learn the necessary math and intermediate/advanced C++ programming. No matter what option I will choose, these 2 will definitely be needed I think.

After I have some good C++ and 3D math knowledge, I think I will try and play around with an open-source 3D engine and with DirectX. After a year (maximum) I'll try to really decide what I want to do/use.

Meanwhile maybe UDK will get an update to Unreal Engine 4. If that happens, UDK will have a very high chance to be my choice for an engine, instead of using open-source or writing it myself.



#39 Chirieac   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 11:02 AM

If someone will want to create a 3D game engine for learning purposes, how much time should he spend on it?

I think a good answer could be until he touched all areas and have a basic working prototype. But, maybe he is not able to create a basic prototype in a decent amount of time and he should quit. When exactly should he quit because would be the best decision to take and not because of the overwhelming of the hard work?



#40 dejaime   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2977

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 12:46 PM

It's hard to say when one should quit.

The best times to quit are:

  1. Right from the start; or
  2. When you admit you can't do it.

If you started and realized it was way harder or tedious and that it would not add that much to your learning, well, there's no reason to keep on doing it.

If you, later on, end up stuck for some time and you decide it is not for you, be it due to a initial big design flaw or maybe some hard to fix problems, you can consider quitting on this and or restarting.

But I am one of those who tries not to quit something I started, even if it means restarting it from scratch.






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