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The rating system


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#1 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1368

Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:21 AM

I find it inconceivable that I would get rated down for helping someone and providing my opinion in this thread: http://www.gamedev.net/topic/648747-adding-objects-via-tiled-editor-or-programatically/. The first time I got rated down, I brought it up, but only because I saw who rated me down and I respect them anymore and I figured they knew something I didn't.

Maybe it's because I rated another guy down once, because I was in a bad mood. But I have never rated down his posts 4 times in a row like some people are doing in this thread to me. This is politics and "group mobbing", as far as I'm concerned. Every time the thread gets bumped, and it probably will 10 more times, I have to worry about seeing a -12 popup. And I didn't even do anything that bad. I provided an opinion.

#2 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 48363

Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:47 AM

The tooltip over the downarrow is:

This response is not useful and does not improve the conversation

 

Perhaps simply a few people felt that way about your posts? Perhaps these people think that to determine which is easiest, he still will still want/need a pro/con list?

If that is the case, they probably also feel negatively about your 4 follow-up posts defending your original post, and this new thread is just drawing more attention to it.

If some people felt it downvote worthy, then more attention is probably going to just net you more down-votes sad.png

 

There was a joke with the old rating system that the first rule of the rating system is: do not talk about about the rating system, because whenever anyone made one of these posts, it always resulted in more of a rating drop for them...

 

If you like I can go and moderate that thread to remove all the discussion about the rating system, which will prevent any further downvoting.


Edited by Hodgman, 10 October 2013 - 05:51 AM.


#3 samoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8333

Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:53 AM

The first downvote on the first post was "deserved" (though "deserved" is a very harsh wording, please don't be offended) as explained in frob's post. If you hover your mouse over the rate buttons, you'll read something like "the response is not useful and does not improve the conversation". The people who downvoted the post obviously thought so.

Incidentially, this not only downvotes your post, but also your "person". Which, admittedly, is an unlucky thing, but it's just how the system works.

 

The mere mention of downvotes (second post) has historically always caused more successive downvotes, immediately. Don't ask me why, but it's how it's always been. Arguably, this does not improve the conversation, so the downvote on the second post is also "justified".

 

As for all the others, people probably felt that you were arguing about something they just didn't want to read and that didn't contribute anything valuable.

 

Now you can discuss whether it's their right to do that and whether that's justified (technically, it probably is), or whether it's just childish to vote down each and every post.

 

Of course, if you search the forums, you'll find many examples of people who also have posted things that don't improve the conversation, and they weren't downvoted every time. Alas, life is never fair.

 

My opinion on it is... get over it. Ratings are not the meaning of life. I understand that seeing a "-12" pop up when you log in gives somewhat of a "Huh, WTF?!" experience and doesn't precisely make your day. But then, what does it really mean. Some guy on the internet didn't like what you wrote. So what.

It's not like you're going to lose your job and your girlfriend, or you're going to die.

 

Next week you'll have a dozen upvotes, and it will all be forgotten.


Edited by samoth, 10 October 2013 - 05:56 AM.


#4 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1368

Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:55 AM

I remember the joke of not mentioning the rating system. However, for purpose of discussion, the strange thing is that people can get away with talking about the rating system half the time, and the other half, they seriously got rated down for it.

And it's not so much about the rating for me, I guess. I care about the discussion. I care about the peer review. But the peer review seems to be corrupt if I get rated down a million times for providing advice.

#5 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 48363

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:02 AM

I get rated down a million times for providing advice.

I didn't participate in that thread, so I'm just assuming and trying to backtrack from the outcome to an explanation -- but put yourself in the head of another person witnessing this conversation (inspired by a true story, retold to be more dramatic):
 
I have these two options to choose from that I don't know much about. I need more information about the good and bad sides of each before I can decide which one is the easiest for me.
 
Just go with the easiest one.
 
But... I need more information to know which one that is... º¿º

If someone else was interpreting the thread that way, then it's pretty obvious why they didn't like your post -- in this interpretation, it's not advice.

 

And hey, I once lost over 500 rep from a post (before making one of these threads, which made it worse) tongue.png


Edited by Hodgman, 10 October 2013 - 06:05 AM.


#6 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1368

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:07 AM

I get rated down a million times for providing advice.

I didn't participate in that thread, so I'm just assuming and trying to backtrack from the outcome to an explanation -- but put yourself in the head of another person witnessing this conversation (inspired by a true story, retold to be more dramatic):
 I have these two options to choose from that I don't know much about. I need more information about the good and bad sides of each before I can decide which one is the easiest for me.
 Just go with the easiest one.
 But... I need more information to know which one that is... º¿º
If someone else was interpreting the thread that way, then it's pretty obvious why they didn't like your post -- in this interpretation, it's not advice.

Ouch. I'd say that Tiled Editor was easier, but a lot of people support Text and stand by it. Text is really quite good. But there's really no answer to the question. It's like when someone asked me what my goal was in pixel art, when I wasn't making pixel art - I was making raster art.

#7 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 24451

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:12 AM


But the peer review seems to be corrupt if I get rated down a million times for providing advice.

I think the problem in this specific case is that you didn't clearly provide useful advice.  People don't know what you were thinking or the tone you meant to convey when they read your posts, and your original reply does not clearly communicate your apparent intended message; that you feel there aren't really pros or cons -- perhaps you might consider editing your post to clarify this. smile.png

 

As noted above, the down-votes on subsequent posts are likely because you've continued to keep the discussion off-topic.

 

 

I've gone ahead and hidden the posts in question from the topic -- this should help both with keeping the discussion on topic, and should also help to protect your reputation a bit.  I would suggest editing your first post (the one that still remains) in order to better explain your advice.

 

 

The system certainly isn't perfect, but we've done a lot of work to improve it based on years of user feedback, and I think it's a pretty good system.



#8 Poigahn   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 572

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:13 AM

  It seems to me that   What Goes Around, Comes Around !!  My personal Feeling is that a Down vote on anyone should be followed by a reason why, so that the receipient of the down vote understands why.

  Those members whom "Willie Nille" upvotes those post, simply to improve their own rating is equally as ir-responsible as those whom DownVotes and then runs

 

Think About your Actions,  Not only does it affect others, but reflects poorly on yourself.


Your Brain contains the Best Program Ever Written : Manage Your Data Wisely !!


#9 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1368

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:21 AM

At the risk of making an off-topic post, I'd say:

I like jbadams. He seems to understand people and provides clear responses on subjects. If this was real life, I would buy you a beer. Lol.

#10 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 24451

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:28 AM


My personal Feeling is that a Down vote on anyone should be followed by a reason why, so that the receipient of the down vote understands why.

That would be nice in an ideal world -- and users are of course welcome to voluntarily make a normal reply explaining their down-votes -- but there are a couple of reasons why we chose not to implement a mandatory explanation with down-votes:

  1. If the system isn't very easy to use, it doesn't get used much.  Forcing users to provide a reason would likely result in people using the system less frequently, and likely also filling the explanation field with "junk" reasons rather than something helpful.
  2. It may potentially remove anonymity from the system, encouraging "revenge voting", which would obviously be undesirable.
  3. It would add more stuff to the UI.  There's already more stuff than we would ideally prefer, and we don't want to complicate things needlessly.

Note that we did make down-voting cost a reputation point in order to discourage frivolous down-votes.



#11 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1368

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:37 AM

I should probably note, GDNet+ can view negative ratings and who rated them down. I have given a few "revenge" ratings because I felt their reason for rating me down was not good. However, I have since stopped because I figured, it just wasn't worth it.

#12 rip-off   Moderators   -  Reputation: 10546

Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:13 AM

I'm not sure what the point of your post is. The point of the rating system is to inform you that people didn't appreciate your post. The reaction we are hoping for is not to attempt to justify your post, but instead to reflect on why they might dislike it and to draw on that learning when you make your next post. Let's say the thread was started now, what might your reply be like (if any)?

 

It doesn't really matter if everyone misinterpreted your attempt to help, what matters is that you can try and be clearer the next time you wish to post.

 


I should probably note, GDNet+ can view negative ratings and who rated them down.

We should probably remove the ability for GDNet+ users to see who downvoted their own posts, to discourage this behaviour.

 

 


I have given a few "revenge" ratings because I felt their reason for rating me down was not good.

That is abuse of the system. Do not do this again.


Edited by rip-off, 10 October 2013 - 07:18 AM.


#13 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1368

Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:26 AM

rip-off - My reply would still probably be the same, though I might expand a little. Personally I think the reason I got rated down was because I am a person of low stature making assertions, and the community doesn't know what to think of it. If someone with a rating of 1500+ said the same thing, it would probably mostly be overlooked.

Whether the GDNet+ feature of seeing who rates you down stays or goes, I won't abuse this anymore.

#14 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 48363

Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:12 AM

But there's really no answer to the question.
My reply would still probably be the same, though I might expand a little.

Yeah if you're trying to say that there's no answer, then I'd include that statement in the hypothetical re-do.
However, there is another kind of answer -- the OP was looking for more information about their two choices. In one situation XML will be easier, and in another situation, GUI will be easier.
e.g. from another post in the thread -- "it gives me a visual since of how my levels should look like" -- that's a pro for the GUI.
You could also say that if you needed to write your own tools to manipulate the objects, then XML might be easier in that case -- a pro for XML...
 
Even just expanding on your absolute assertion with a follow-up question would make it softer and less absolute, e.g. "There isn't a best option for all situations. Just go with whichever is easier for you. Can you tell us more about how your situation, or what your XML and map-editor workflows would be?"
 ^ That version of your post explains why you're giving your advice about going with what's easiest (so it's no longer just blunt advice), and then leaves the door open for the OP to come back and continue the discussion by giving out some personal metrics for what "easiest" means to them (so it's not just absolute advice in a vacuum).
 

Personally I think the reason I got rated down was because I am a person of low [rep points] making assertions.
Maybe it's because I rated another guy down once.

Regardless of whether that's true or not, I don't think that's a useful explanation.
It's much more useful to consider how you could make a better post next time, regardless of the actual reasons.
 
Personally, I've learned to try and avoid absolute statements like that; I often go back and change words like "will" to "may" before posting to soften my assertions wink.png
I also often type out a response and then close the tab without posting, because I decide it's not actually useful or moving the thread forwards laugh.png
 
As for the truth, I'd guess that Poigahn has paid attention to your post because of a grudge, decided it's not great and down-voted it, which has then acted like a beacon and highlighted the post for the next readers as being potentially questionable. 3 more readers have then read it to see if it really is down-worthy, instead of just skimming the thread, and have also decided that it wasn't helpful. And then you've mentioned the rating system, which is like kicking the hornets nest!
 

It seems to me that   What Goes Around, Comes Around !!  My personal Feeling is that a Down vote on anyone should be followed by a reason why, so that the receipient of the down vote understands why.

So.... why didn't you explain to Shane C why you downvoted him in that thread? Isn't that inviting what's going around here to come back around on you again?

He's explained himself. Don't lower yourself to the level you're accusing him of being on.


Edited by Hodgman, 10 October 2013 - 08:27 AM.


#15 BitMaster   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8486

Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:35 AM

As for the truth, I'd guess that Poigahn has paid attention to your post because of a grudge, decided it's not great and down-voted it, which has then acted like a beacon and highlighted the post for the next readers as being potentially questionable. 3 more readers have then read it to see if it really is down-worthy, instead of just skimming the thread, and have also decided that it wasn't helpful. And then you've mentioned the rating system, which is like kicking the hornets nest!


While I cannot say anything about Poigahn's motivations, I'd like to offer a different perspective here. It sometimes happens that you stumble over several posts by the same person which you consider slightly irksome. Not really enough to say "this post by itself simply deserves a downvote" but after a few such posts, the accumulated irk can easily cross the threshold.

#16 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1368

Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:12 AM

I probably talked enough about the rating system to last a person a lifetime, but I just got rated down for asking someone, simply, "Because C#'s performance isn't quite as good as C++'s, you want to use C++?" or something like that but shorter. I kind of deserved it because I was writing short answers in the thread because I read everything on the forum and have the annoying habit of replying to discuss even when I don't have much to say. But The Beginner forum is starting to be the new Lounge in my opinion, where you have to be really careful of what you say.

With that said, a couple of staff members have stepped in to rate up my posts that got rated down. I appreciate this, I really do, but I can't ask you to follow me and rate my down posts up forever, if the community doesn't like me, I guess my rating will just have to be 0.

#17 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 38993

Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:44 AM

The For Beginners forum has had fairly strict rules ever since I started lurking on the site back in 2003 or so.  

 

In other areas it is generally okay to have very short answers, to be a little bit rough, or to debate marginally correct or incorrect answers. But when it comes to beginners there is a lot of extra attention to ensure that answers are polite, useful, and correct because the potential for harm is so much greater. While normally we have debate and tempered, reasoned argument in most of the site, in the For Beginners forum it could (at least in theory) cause a potentially rising superstar to turn away from the industry thereby harming everyone.

 

I have made it a habit to verify if a post is in For Beginners before writing a reply. Questions in one of the more technical forums can sometimes handle a harsher or nuanced reply. Questions in the For Beginners forum tends to get hand-holding.


Check out my book, Game Development with Unity, aimed at beginners who want to build fun games fast.

Also check out my personal website at bryanwagstaff.com, where I occasionally write about assorted stuff.


#18 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1368

Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:49 AM

The For Beginners forum has had fairly strict rules ever since I started lurking on the site back in 2003 or so.

In other areas it is generally okay to have very short answers, to be a little bit rough, or to debate marginally correct or incorrect answers. But when it comes to beginners there is a lot of extra attention to ensure that answers are polite, useful, and correct because the potential for harm is so much greater. While normally we have debate and tempered, reasoned argument in most of the site, in the For Beginners forum it could (at least in theory) cause a potentially rising superstar to turn away from the industry thereby harming everyone.

I have made it a habit to verify if a post is in For Beginners before writing a reply. Questions in one of the more technical forums can sometimes handle a harsher or nuanced reply. Questions in the For Beginners forum tends to get hand-holding.

Thanks. It sounds like I'm going to the wrong board. My attitude and approach might be better in the more technical boards, but there are people there that have so much knowledge, they will crush me. Speaking of "t" words, such as technology, and boards, what ever happened to that Hardware board Gamedev had for awhile?

#19 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 32511

Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:52 AM

And hey, I once lost over 500 rep from a post (before making one of these threads, which made it worse) tongue.png

 

That beats my record of losing over 400 from a single post. laugh.png That was with the old system, where everyone started at 1000, and 2000 was considered unreachable.


It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' or 'SotL' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.

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#20 cardinal   Members   -  Reputation: 908

Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:33 PM

 

Thanks. It sounds like I'm going to the wrong board. My attitude and approach might be better in the more technical boards, but there are people there that have so much knowledge, they will crush me. Speaking of "t" words, such as technology, and boards, what ever happened to that Hardware board Gamedev had for awhile?

 

 

It's not the wrong board, but why not add something constructive to the discussion rather than chiming in just for the sake of it. I think "short VS long" answers is misleading. Short concise, but constructive answers are prefered to long winded, but pointless drivel.

 

For the two of your posts described in this thread, the first wasn't helpful, the second was antagonistic. I don't personally rate people down, but I can understand the point of it, and it created this discussion which helps explain how you can improve your responses to these types of threads in the future.






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