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it there any compress method which is better than dxt[n]?


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#1 db123   Members   -  Reputation: 206

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:25 AM

 i have notify this article which is the second chapter of GPU Pro 5:

 

Reducing Texture Memory Usage by 2-Channel Color Encoding by Krzysztof Kluczek

http://gpupro.blogspot.com/2013/10/gpu-pro-5-table-of-contents.html

 

so , i want to know, is there any better method to compress texture, to reduce the video memory usage.

or, is anybody know the detail of that article? is there any relevance topics?mellow.png mellow.png mellow.png 



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#2 haegarr   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3645

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:53 AM

The quality of texture compression depends heavily on the kind of data. So asking for a "better one" is too broad. Is it for color? If so, is alpha included? Is it for normals, and in what space? Is hardware support required? And on what platforms is it needed? ...

 

A coupe of other compressions methods for textures I know of, for the one or other use case:

 

* DXT5nm - Normal Compression

* 3Dc / BC5 - Normal Compression

* RXGB - Normal Compression in Doom 3 (EDIT Well, not sure whether this can be called an own compression.)

 

* ASTC - ARM Adaptive Scalable Texture Compression (on some mobile devices, AFAIK)

* ETC1, ETC2, EAC - Ericcson Texture Compression (on some mobile devices)

* PVRTC, PVRTC2 - PowerVR Texture Compression (on some mobile devices)

 

* VQ - Vector Quantization (no hardware support, AFAIK)

 

 

EDIT: I see now that the thread is tagged with [D3D9]. Regardless the DXT compressions "misused" for other purposes than originally intended for, I think there are no other methods available.


Edited by haegarr, 11 October 2013 - 01:27 AM.


#3 db123   Members   -  Reputation: 206

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:20 AM

The quality of texture compression depends heavily on the kind of data. So asking for a "better one" is too broad. Is it for color? If so, is alpha included? Is it for normals, and in what space? Is hardware support required? And on what platforms is it needed? ...

 

A coupe of other compressions methods for textures I know of, for the one or other use case:

 

* DXT5nm - Normal Compression

* 3Dc / BC5 - Normal Compression

* RXGB - Normal Compression in Doom 3 (EDIT Well, not sure whether this can be called an own compression.)

 

* ASTC - ARM Adaptive Scalable Texture Compression (on some mobile devices, AFAIK)

* ETC1, ETC2, EAC - Ericcson Texture Compression (on some mobile devices)

* PVRTC, PVRTC2 - PowerVR Texture Compression (on some mobile devices)

 

* VQ - Vector Quantization (no hardware support, AFAIK)

 

 

EDIT: I see now that the thread is tagged with [D3D9]. Regardless the DXT compressions "misused" for other purposes than originally intended for, I think there are no other methods available.

 

thank you very much.

my game is a 2d-game, so our textures always color texture. most of them have alpha channel, we use dxt5 format. the other which have not alpha channel data, we use dxt1.

because we have avatar system, it is based on frame animation, so there are so many textures, small textures.

i have create texture atlas to reduce the memory usage, but the texture number is increasing every month.

so i want to find a new way to reduce the memory usage, for example: a new texture format which have better Compressing Ratio.

sad.png



#4 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1103

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:33 AM

thank you very much.
my game is a 2d-game, so our textures always color texture. most of them have alpha channel, we use dxt5 format. the other which have not alpha channel data, we use dxt1.
because we have avatar system, it is based on frame animation, so there are so many textures, small textures.
i have create texture atlas to reduce the memory usage, but the texture number is increasing every month.
so i want to find a new way to reduce the memory usage, for example: a new texture format which have better Compressing Ratio.
:(


You might be better off trying to decrease your number of frames of animation. Resorting to better compression methods might cause the quality to suffer, sadly.

#5 haegarr   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3645

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:07 AM

Theses are some thoughts without knowing much about the content of the textures (and the "avatar system"), so they might or might not apply:

 

* Are some textures less colorful, so that other direct color formats, e.g. R5G6B5, A4R4G4B4, or similar,  may be used?

 

* Are texels mapped 1:1 to pixels, so that using indexed colors on less colorful but similar clips (I think on animations in an atlas, for example) easy to do?

 

* Is it possible to load textures on demand, e.g. zone based?

 

* Do you pack the images tightly into the atlases, perhaps with not necessarily rectangular borders?

 

* Can an approved compositing reduce texture count, e.g. splatting for ground textures?

 

* Can you use 2D skeleton figures for animations?



#6 TiagoCosta   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1838

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:28 AM

I'm guessing that article will present a method similar to how the color buffer is stored in Crysis 3 using the Y'CbCr (4:2:2) color space. You can read more about Crysis 3 implementation in this presentation (slide 13).


Edited by TiagoCosta, 11 October 2013 - 06:29 AM.

Tiago Costa
Aqua Engine - my DirectX 11 game "engine" - In development

#7 db123   Members   -  Reputation: 206

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 09:23 PM

Theses are some thoughts without knowing much about the content of the textures (and the "avatar system"), so they might or might not apply:

 

* Are some textures less colorful, so that other direct color formats, e.g. R5G6B5, A4R4G4B4, or similar,  may be used?

 

* Are texels mapped 1:1 to pixels, so that using indexed colors on less colorful but similar clips (I think on animations in an atlas, for example) easy to do?

 

* Is it possible to load textures on demand, e.g. zone based?

 

* Do you pack the images tightly into the atlases, perhaps with not necessarily rectangular borders?

 

* Can an approved compositing reduce texture count, e.g. splatting for ground textures?

 

* Can you use 2D skeleton figures for animations?

 

thank you very much.

i have create a atlas system so i can reduce 60% of the textures count.

 

the effect of 2d skeleton is unacceptable//



#8 dave j   Members   -  Reputation: 570

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:29 AM

I'm guessing that article will present a method similar to how the color buffer is stored in Crysis 3 using the Y'CbCr (4:2:2) color space. You can read more about Crysis 3 implementation in this presentation (slide 13).

Similar to that, but with more detail, is The Compact YCoCg Frame Buffer.

Depending on the original textures, separating out the luminance from the chrominance may make it may be possible to store a high resolution version of the luminance and an even lower resolution version of the chrominance than in the compact YCoCg frame buffer example. The demo scene has always used tricks like that - see here.

#9 C0lumbo   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2086

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:57 PM

 

The quality of texture compression depends heavily on the kind of data. So asking for a "better one" is too broad. Is it for color? If so, is alpha included? Is it for normals, and in what space? Is hardware support required? And on what platforms is it needed? ...

 

A coupe of other compressions methods for textures I know of, for the one or other use case:

 

* DXT5nm - Normal Compression

* 3Dc / BC5 - Normal Compression

* RXGB - Normal Compression in Doom 3 (EDIT Well, not sure whether this can be called an own compression.)

 

* ASTC - ARM Adaptive Scalable Texture Compression (on some mobile devices, AFAIK)

* ETC1, ETC2, EAC - Ericcson Texture Compression (on some mobile devices)

* PVRTC, PVRTC2 - PowerVR Texture Compression (on some mobile devices)

 

* VQ - Vector Quantization (no hardware support, AFAIK)

 

 

EDIT: I see now that the thread is tagged with [D3D9]. Regardless the DXT compressions "misused" for other purposes than originally intended for, I think there are no other methods available.

 

thank you very much.

my game is a 2d-game, so our textures always color texture. most of them have alpha channel, we use dxt5 format. the other which have not alpha channel data, we use dxt1.

because we have avatar system, it is based on frame animation, so there are so many textures, small textures.

i have create texture atlas to reduce the memory usage, but the texture number is increasing every month.

so i want to find a new way to reduce the memory usage, for example: a new texture format which have better Compressing Ratio.

sad.png

 

 

Just to check, you know you can use DXT1 for textures with on/off alpha? (DXT1a technically, although the two are pretty much one and the same)

 

Otherwise, I'm not really aware of many options that will give you a better compression ratio than DXTn. Perhaps you need to focus on systems for dynamically loading/unloading your textures instead



#10 Paradigm Shifter   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5091

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:03 PM

You get problems with DXT1 for 1 bit alpha if you want to add filtering to the texture (around the edges, the pixels with alpha 0 are assumed to be black, by the hardware, you can't specify a non-black transparent fill colour). I saw an article about using a different source/dest blending equation for that case but after bouncing back and forth between myself (tools dept.) and the graphics guy we failed to come to a conclusion that it would be a satisfactory solution. I can't recall the exact reasons why I was convinced to drop it in favour of a DXT5 with a uniform colour for the transparent parts of the bitmap (may have been tools change hassle combined with needless worrying on the graphics dept. side).


"Most people think, great God will come from the sky, take away everything, and make everybody feel high" - Bob Marley

#11 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 26958

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:19 PM

You get problems with DXT1 for 1 bit alpha if you want to add filtering to the texture (around the edges, the pixels with alpha 0 are assumed to be black, by the hardware, you can't specify a non-black transparent fill colour). I saw an article about using a different source/dest blending equation for that case but after bouncing back and forth between myself (tools dept.) and the graphics guy we failed to come to a conclusion that it would be a satisfactory solution. I can't recall the exact reasons why I was convinced to drop it in favour of a DXT5 with a uniform colour for the transparent parts of the bitmap (may have been tools change hassle combined with needless worrying on the graphics dept. side).

With DXT1 transparencies, and the black outlines, this is something that always annoys me when I see it in other games, because it's an easy fix.

 
As the alpha channel fades from white to black, the colour channel also fades to black, which is as if it's already been multiplied by the alpha channel, so when you multiply it with the alpha channel again during blending, you get black outlines.
 

The solution is that instead of using alpha blending (result = src*a + dst*(1-a)), you need to use pre-multiplied alpha blending (result = src + dst*(1-a)).

 

Pre-multiplied alpha blending is actually much more versatile, as it allows you to render both regular "alpha" style effects (e.g. smoke) and additive style effects (e.g. fire) at the same time (no need for each of these to use it's own blend mode). You can even pre-paint smoke and fire onto the same sprite/texture if you want to.



#12 Paradigm Shifter   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5091

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:53 PM

Yeah I had this exact same argument with my gfx prog. He wasn't buying it. I'm pretty sure he came up with a counter argument although it may have been "let's keep it the way it is". I'm pretty sure he came up with a counter example though (something to do with the PS3 GFX hardware I think). Maybe state changes complicating the material sorting order (that's fairly weak tho). Artists are the trump card but it could be preprocessed in tools. I forget, it was over a year ago.


"Most people think, great God will come from the sky, take away everything, and make everybody feel high" - Bob Marley




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