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Stamina system


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#1 Navezof   Members   -  Reputation: 1266

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:25 AM

Hello,

For a Tactical - RPG game, I wanted to add a system using stamina. I would like to hear your opinion.
 
- Each character has a amount of stamina.
- At the beginning of his turn the character regain some of his stamina. The amount of stamina recovered depends on the previous situation the character is in. If he is surrounded by enemies, he will regain less Stamina, than a character who is safe.
- Each action cost a certain amount of stamina.
- The stamina is taken into account for most calculus. (for example : damage = Force * stamina)
- When a character take a hit and is about to die because of it, he has a chance to use a large amount of stamina to evade the attack or reduce the impact of the attack. If the evasion don't work, he die. If it work he is safe but exhausted.
- When a character is hit, he lose some hp and stamina.
- A character can burn more stamina to perform some action (a supplementary action, a special action)

- A character can burn its stamina max to be as effective as if he was at full stamina for one turn. Afterward, he will lose his stamina max, and lose a lot of stamina. (Something like, 1/10 stamina left, and stamina max = 5) It's only for the duration of the fight.

- Your maximum stamina depends on your health state. An injured character has only 60% of his stamina max.

And there is the analyse I made for this system.

The + of this system :

- No more over-powerful unit, if he is tired, he became as weak as anybody.

- You have to take care of your character, they are more fragile.

- More comeback possibilities. "Ok, I'm cornered, I will go all out and burn all of my characters stamina to perform a big offensive!"

The - of this system :

- Slower. They may be situation where you'd rather wait that all your characters have full stamina before moving.
- No more over-powerful unit. Even against weaker enemies, you can exhaust your more powerful character. And render him useless.

Thank you for reading.



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#2 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1283

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:36 PM

It seems to limit the character too much. Make the "stamina" mechanic a bit simpler and allow the player to switch it "on" or "off". :)

Source: I'm not a huge fan of limited stamina in games.

#3 Navezof   Members   -  Reputation: 1266

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:30 PM

Allowing the player to switch it on or off, is totally out of question. Either this feature is implemented, or not. It would be too unbalanced to have some characters with it and some other without.

Maybe I didn't explain it well. There, some added information.

- The recovery rate is sufficient to recover from a move and a simple action. (attack, use item) So, if a character is always doing basic action, he doesn't need to take care of his stamina. The amount of stamina should be enough to not run-out after only 2 turns. I think having the characters for the most time with around 60%-80% stamina in safe situation, and more around 30%-50 in dangerous situation.

 

- Some actions cost more stamina than other, if a character always use his most powerful spell, he will quickly ran out of stamina.

- It allows the player to make some mistake by giving him an extra-chance.

- It adds more fragility to the characters, thus encouraging player to play safe and in team (by covering exhausting character with "fresh" characters.)

- It also allow the player to make risky, extraordinary actions.

- It also penalize player who are rushing alone. (I remember final fantasy tactics, where I just had to place my main character with a counter attack on the middle of the map, and the enemie's unit where just killed one by one.) 

 

To make it simpler, well, it's just like a mana (magic) bar, but which is influencing other characteristics and the result of actions.



#4 cardinal   Members   -  Reputation: 903

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:32 PM

I disagree that it limits the character at all. In fact it could be a big differentiator between characters and tactics. For instance you might have a character that hits hard but goes through stamina quickly VS a high stamina character that does less damage and can be used for quick strikes, or to draw attention.

 

I like the idea of each action requiring an amount of stamina to act. It gives you the choice to blow through your stamina trying to overwhelm your opponent at the risk of burning out, or playing it more cautiously to preserve stamina and win a drawn out battle.

 

It also forces you to read the opponent's tactics a bit, so if they are playing a high stamina game, it might be better to withdraw, save your stamina and counter hard when they are tired.



#5 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1283

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:44 PM

Allowing the player to switch it on or off, is totally out of question. Either this feature is implemented, or not. It would be too unbalanced to have some characters with it and some other without.


I never said to leave some characters with it on and some off. I meant to leave all characters with it on or it off. The stamina feature could be used for more experienced players.

So there are a few reasons I don't like it:

1. I have played simple limited stamina games before and didn't like it.
2. It limits the player's ability so much here, and is such an important aspect of the game, that it becomes unrealistic to me.
3. If I had an injured character, I would want to do a full strike. I would not want to be limited. I would rather you boosted injured players, because they know they are injured and want to get the battle over quickly.

But maybe I'm not being helpful. In which case, I will withdraw from this thread and pretend none of this ever happened :).

#6 ActiveUnique   Members   -  Reputation: 853

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:22 PM


The + of this system :

- No more over-powerful unit, if he is tired, he became as weak as anybody.

- You have to take care of your character, they are more fragile.

- More comeback possibilities. "Ok, I'm cornered, I will go all out and burn all of my characters stamina to perform a big offensive!"

The - of this system :

- Slower. They may be situation where you'd rather wait that all your characters have full stamina before moving.
- No more over-powerful unit. Even against weaker enemies, you can exhaust your more powerful character. And render him useless.

I understand the slower part, Hybrid Heaven as my point of reference was basically a stand around charging game. But most games need something to slow down the action. Tactical games give players more time to think if it's close to real time.

 

These pros and cons, I'm not sure how you concluded most of them. All you have given is an idea, it needs context.

 

From my experience, no powerful character is viewed uninteresting. At the very least, even in board games, one hero exists, the one wildcard that potentially decides a close game. More context could help.


I've read about the idea guy. It's a serious misnomer. You really want to avoid the lazy team.


#7 Navezof   Members   -  Reputation: 1266

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:28 PM

So, if I understood correctly your point. You feel like there is too big of a limitation with this system.

I would like to know where do you feel limited? Do you fear that the player has to wait before acting? it's not you being unhelpful, but I don't see completely your point as I have the impression of having already answered your point :)

 

1. I have played simple limited stamina games before and didn't like it.

 

Can you give me some examples?
 

2. It limits the player's ability so much here, and is such an important aspect of the game, that it becomes unrealistic to me.

 

As I said, the character shouldn't run out of stamina easily, except if he is in a dangerous situation. For example, surrounded by enemy, his defense/evasion cost him a lot of stamina. And well, in real life, after some hours of fighting I guess you are tired, and less effective ^^
 

3. If I had an injured character, I would want to do a full strike. I would not want to be limited. I would rather you boosted injured players, because they know they are injured and want to get the battle over quickly.

 

It is possible, as I explained, you can go out of a dangerous situation by using up a huge part of your stamina in order to be as effective as if your were with full stamina. however, it's only for a short period, and after that, your max stamina is diminished. You can compare it to a last "baroud d'honneur", your character has nothing to lose, so he go all-out, and either die or succeed.

And of course you don't have to withdraw from this thread if you don't want to. But I guess, my vision of a Tactical-RPG is quite different from yours, mine seems a little bit more complex. But if there is some flaws, I would gladly hear them :)  



#8 Shane C   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1283

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:39 PM

So, if I understood correctly your point. You feel like there is too big of a limitation with this system.

Yes.

I would like to know where do you feel limited?

The composition as a whole. Too many factors. The more mechanics you take away from the stamina feature, the more I will tend to like it.

Can you give me some examples?

You're going to laugh when you hear this but... Madden. There is player stamina/fatigue, which you can't actually see the values to, as well as an option to turn it off.

The two games I think your game should follow are Madden, which I mentioned, and Fire Emblem 3DS, in which I believe the game plays a little differently for experienced players if they choose that option. You can make it like both these games and cater to gamers like me if you give players the option of not having limited stamina and having it on for more experienced players if they so choose.

#9 Navezof   Members   -  Reputation: 1266

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:56 PM

. More context could help.

 

True, I didn't talk about the context at all. 

I guess to explain it fully should start a new thread, but there is some more information about the context. (I won't talk about the story, because not really the point here) I will expose the main features. Of course, nothing is certain and can change. But my goal with this thread is to have some feedback and opinions about the rules I would like to implement. And also just discuss about game rules :)

- It's a tactical-rpg with sword, gun (musket-like) and magic.
- The player control between 4 and 10 characters.
- Each character has characteristics (strength, dexterity, constitution, ...) , class (Mage, Swordman, Gunner, ...) and skills (Fire affinity, markmanship, sword mastery, ...)
- The order in which character are playing is determined by characteristics and is dynamic. If you are hit, you lose one place in the fight order.
- During its turn, a character can do 2 simple action (moving, attacking, using item, reloading weapon, ...), or 1 complex action (healing (not magicaly), cast a powerful spell, ...)
- As additional rules I picked up two rules from D&D, the opportunity attack (if you move next to an enemy, he can freely attack you) and the engagement (if you are engaged for exemple fighting an enemy), you can't use a long-distance weapon, and some actions can give your enemy a chance to attack freely (using an item, reloading, ...)
- And, inspired from the Valkyria Chronicles games, you can place some characters (with long-distance weapon/magic) to "be ready"  and they will shoot any enemy in range.

 

I think it should suffice to understand in which context I want to implement the stamina system. But don't hesitate to ask if you have some more questions :)

I'm currently working on the conception and technical research for this project.



#10 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3988

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:53 AM

Too complex and overall not needed. I would drop it and stick to AP.

 

The greates stamina system that worked was in Dungeon Master, it was a limit not to combat but to weapons you use (heavy weapons used a lot of stamina while using light weapons meant you could ignore stamina). Note it was not a tactical wargame nor turn based.

Overall, I find stamina pretty useless/redundant in turn based tactics, you have AP already and these at least partially overlap.


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#11 TechnoGoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2797

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:28 PM

I can't help but feel you are doing too much with one system.  I'd probably split it across multiple stats.  Action points to determine what you can do in a turn with carry over to allow you to unleash big combos by saving up action points.  Hp can be used to degrade all stats.  Every 10% drop in hp reduces all stats by 10% rounded up for instance.



#12 powerneg   Members   -  Reputation: 1463

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:54 PM


- Each character has a amount of stamina.

ok

 


- At the beginning of his turn the character regain some of his stamina. The amount of stamina recovered depends on the previous situation the character is in. If he is surrounded by enemies, he will regain less Stamina, than a character who is safe.

So the one who needs it most gets it least.

 


- Each action cost a certain amount of stamina.

Ok, stamina is something to fuel actions.

 


- The stamina is taken into account for most calculus. (for example : damage = Force * stamina)

I wouldn't multiply, it has a way too high effect(being on half stamina = half damage, being on 10% = 10% damage)
instead maybe damage^2 = force^2 + stamina^2 ?
stamina should not be allowed to be higher then force i guess


- When a character take a hit and is about to die because of it, he has a chance to use a large amount of stamina to evade the attack or reduce the impact of the attack. If the evasion don't work, he die. If it work he is safe but exhausted.

This uses stamina as cost, but isn't about stamina itself, it's about making a random(?) "safe or die" and being safe while 2 seconds ago you were in a big fight breaks immersion a lot.

I 'm not sure why you want to add this, just have a character fall unconscious and rejoin the party at the next fight instead ?

ps. it uses a large amount of stamina as cost, while i expect a character that is about to die/faint to have already exhausted his stamina

 


- When a character is hit, he lose some hp and stamina.

Ok, make sure there are some weaker moves a character can always perform when being ganged up on.

 


- A character can burn its stamina max to be as effective as if he was at full stamina for one turn. Afterward, he will lose his stamina max, and lose a lot of stamina. (Something like, 1/10 stamina left, and stamina max = 5) It's only for the duration of the fight.

Always nice to have more options, off course players will use this offensively as well as defensively.

 


- Your maximum stamina depends on your health state. An injured character has only 60% of his stamina max.

Ok, kinda nice, realy having to balance the party out

 


- A character can burn more stamina to perform some action (a supplementary action, a special action)

Not sure what kind of actions you mean, but stamina still being used as a cost, just like regular actions, so okay.

 

All in all teamwork and switching roles within the party seems to be more important, players will need some guidance though, not being good with that one character might mess their game up more.

Switching roles(due to one being exhausted and/or injured another partymember goes to the "front") should not be too difficult, but make sure the mechanics allow it to be done easily.

 

This "one powerfull unit" might still exist in your game though, only because of stamina it takes four times as long for him to defeat all opponents, which is worse.

Just make characters roughly equal in strength maybe ?



#13 Navezof   Members   -  Reputation: 1266

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 06:16 AM

Navezof, on 18 Oct 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:
Can you give me some examples?
You're going to laugh when you hear this but... Madden. There is player stamina/fatigue, which you can't actually see the values to, as well as an option to turn it off.

The two games I think your game should follow are Madden, which I mentioned, and Fire Emblem 3DS, in which I believe the game plays a little differently for experienced players if they choose that option. You can make it like both these games and cater to gamers like me if you give players the option of not having limited stamina and having it on for more experienced players if they so choose.


Well, I laugh a bit, sorry. But it reminded me of Blood Bowl, I think there is a stamina/fatigue system.

The possibility to disable stamina depending on the difficulty is an idea. I should think more about it. But I'm not here yet smile.png

 

 


I can't help but feel you are doing too much with one system.  I'd probably split it across multiple stats.  Action points to determine what you can do in a turn with carry over to allow you to unleash big combos by saving up action points.  Hp can be used to degrade all stats.  Every 10% drop in hp reduces all stats by 10% rounded up for instance.

 

I fear that if characters can stack up Action point (if this is what you mean by "carry over") player are encouraged to play defensive. It's better to let the enemy lose his action point by coming at you, and once he is at range, then you can use many actions. Then maybe add a limit to the Ap, but this is the same as the stamina, but with a different name smile.png

Using the health to degrade characteristics is a good idea.

I didn't plan to add Action point, at least not directly. Or each character as only 2 Ap by turn, and one simple action cost 1 point, and complex cost 2 points. 
 

Navezof, on 18 Oct 2013 - 7:25 PM, said:snapback.png



- At the beginning of his turn the character regain some of his stamina. The amount of stamina recovered depends on the previous situation the character is in. If he is surrounded by enemies, he will regain less Stamina, than a character who is safe.

So the one who needs it most gets it least.

 

Yes, the idea is to make the action of falling back on safer place (far from the enemy, behind some friends) more usefull.

 


Navezof, on 18 Oct 2013 - 7:25 PM, said:

- The stamina is taken into account for most calculus. (for example : damage = Force * stamina)
I wouldn't multiply, it has a way too high effect(being on half stamina = half damage, being on 10% = 10% damage)
instead maybe damage^2 = force^2 + stamina^2 ?
stamina should not be allowed to be higher then force i guess

Of course this calculus is not balanced, it's just to illustrate the fact that the stamina is used for many actions smile.png
 


Navezof, on 18 Oct 2013 - 7:25 PM, said:

- When a character take a hit and is about to die because of it, he has a chance to use a large amount of stamina to evade the attack or reduce the impact of the attack. If the evasion don't work, he die. If it work he is safe but exhausted.
This uses stamina as cost, but isn't about stamina itself, it's about making a random(?) "safe or die" and being safe while 2 seconds ago you were in a big fight breaks immersion a lot.
I 'm not sure why you want to add this, just have a character fall unconscious and rejoin the party at the next fight instead ?
ps. it uses a large amount of stamina as cost, while i expect a character that is about to die/faint to have already exhausted his stamina


Imagine a fight between to swordfighter, one of them, Jean-petit, is dominated, and his adversary throw a big swing which surely kill him f he don't evade/parry. So in a last effort,  Jean-petit rise his sword. He succeed in saving his head, but he is thrown off-balance and exhausted. For the player what does that mean : he didn't saw this attack coming, but instead of just giving up on his character because of his mistake, he has a chance to save him. If the character survive, he is less and less useful as he is attacked. But, if the player manage to save him, he can get some rest and be more useful (except he can be injured/lost some of his maximum stamina.)

As for the "over-powerful unit", with the stamina, even if he is powerfull, if he lose to many stamina, he is vulnerable. But I think this will need a lot if balancing. And maybe make the characters differents by their actions, more than their characteristics. This, I should see when testing.


Thanks for the feedback people, it really help me :)



#14 powerneg   Members   -  Reputation: 1463

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:24 PM

Hmm, you wrote the character would be "safe" yet he wouldn't be safe if he(she) was still standing surrounded by enemies,
so he would have to move or be protected somehow for the rest of the turn.

 

Secondly a skill(because that is what it is) that only works when you're about to die is still a bit strange.

 

Maybe first write out the other skills and then see whether the game still needs this skill, maybe in some other form ?



#15 LorenzoGatti   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2763

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 02:06 AM

I suggest trying very hard to split generic stamina into multiple types of "action fuel" to provide a genuine difference between character types and escape the direct proportionality between the rate of stamina recovery and average damage per turn.

For example, using ranged weapons could spend "concentration" (usually recovered at a generous constant rate and demanding some turns of aiming for difficult shots).

Fencing moves could spend and gain, according to their outcome, "positioning" (you unbalance yourself and/or worsen your guard to put the opponent in a worse situation); a less refined fighting style could spend more positioning and a lot more stamina to simply hit hard and/or fast, and it would be profitable as long as the opponents don't take advantage of bad positioning.

If your game has magic, spellcasting could spend continuously gathered "energy", with stronger effects costing more.

There's an option for characters in a bad situation that hasn't been mentioned yet: convert damage into action fuel, only in limited cases. You might be too tired to dodge or attack properly, but you could overexert yourself desperately by damaging your muscles (driving your stamina under the floor, but suffering less damage than by limping around).
Produci, consuma, crepa

#16 wodinoneeye   Members   -  Reputation: 877

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:45 AM

Depends on the game mechanics

 

Usual use for stamina limitations is  movement and melee fighting

 

 

Moving fast to attack an enemy by suprise or in a flank can be  an advantage

 

You dont want the game mechanics to give advantage without tradeoffs (or else everybody will use the loophole)

 

Ex - Flanking maneuvers may or may not work depending on the terrain  -- the enemy sees you coming and can  be ready (training factor) and YOU are now tired.

 

Longterm stamina for melee can work but only as long as the melee lasts (when you may be vulnurable to ranged fire)

 

 

Fighter jets have limited stamina (fuel) when they go to full (afterburner) power  (excessive activity burns stamina at a greater rate)

 

Excessive use of stamina can almost permanently wear out the unit for the battle (napoleonics  minitures rules for cvalry charges)

 

 

Many games allow you to run for a while until your stamina limit is reache and then you are limited in speed (usually actually having to stop moving to recover/build back up your stamina reserve)

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#17 Navezof   Members   -  Reputation: 1266

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:51 PM


Hmm, you wrote the character would be "safe" yet he wouldn't be safe if he(she) was still standing surrounded by enemies,
so he would have to move or be protected somehow for the rest of the turn.


True, if the character is surrounded by 3 enemies and he manage to take 1 down, there is still 2 more and he is now exhausted. But with this feature I wanted to create kind of tense situation. I wanted the player not to give up on dangerous situation, and allow him to give him a chance to perform a spectacular action (getting his strenght potential to the max for a short moment, make a rush through enemies' rank) I also wanted to make "rescue mission" possible, for exemple sending the surrounded character  a friend to help him, or carry him to a safe zone if he fell during a fight.


Secondly a skill(because that is what it is) that only works when you're about to die is still a bit strange


I intended to make possible to use this mechanics of stamina over-burning even for offensive action, not ony if you are about to die. In fact, you should be able to use an extra-stamina whenever you want. It could be used to move farther in order to make kind of quick attack, hit and run. With maybe more and more malus if you perform to many over-burning. I think it could be nice to give the choice for a player to play risky. He can burn all of his character's stamina in order to quickly gain an advantage (maybe taking out powerful but frail enemies, like mages or cleric), but it would mean that after your attack youe characters are exhausted and vulnerable. 



Maybe first write out the other skills and then see whether the game still needs this skill, maybe in some other form ?



Still in testing, so I will try it and see if it fit in the gameplay :)


I suggest trying very hard to split generic stamina into multiple types of "action fuel" to provide a genuine difference between character types and escape the direct proportionality between the rate of stamina recovery and average damage per turn.



It's an interesting idea, it remind me of world of warcraft, with the warrior who have a rage bar, the mage a mana bar, etc... . I will search a bit in this direction.


There's an option for characters in a bad situation that hasn't been mentioned yet: convert damage into action fuel, only in limited cases. You might be too tired to dodge or attack properly, but you could overexert yourself desperately by damaging your muscles (driving your stamina under the floor, but suffering less damage than by limping around).


That could be done, but this is more or less the same as I wanted to do with the stamina. (losing value on a long term in order to have a short term bonus)


Fighter jets have limited stamina (fuel) when they go to full (afterburner) power  (excessive activity burns stamina at a greater rate)
 
Excessive use of stamina can almost permanently wear out the unit for the battle (napoleonics  minitures rules for cvalry charges)
 
 
Many games allow you to run for a while until your stamina limit is reache and then you are limited in speed (usually actually having to stop moving to recover/build back up your stamina reserve)
 



The analogy with the jet is good :) , and this is what I want to obtain. Burning your stamina over your character's limit make him powerful for a moment, but after he will have to rest in order to re-build his stamina. I also wanted to lessen his maximum Stamina.



Thanks for the help and feedback, I really appreciate it.

#18 wodinoneeye   Members   -  Reputation: 877

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:55 AM

Running out of stamina can force the player to have to change tactics, which brings in the tactics/strategy of WHEN/WHERE to make use of the actions which burn it up/out.

 

I recall medieval battles where swinging a sword and shield in heavy armor could go on for hours and at the end the winners basicly being the ones who still could be standing (similarly cavalry running after someone who just keeps retreating, but then being tired and in a bad defensive position when a less battle capable enemy can come back at the advantage)

 

Even in static situations like a siege being able to hold out  and outlast the enemies attempts (usually with a large defensive advatage require assault ratios of 3 and 5 to one to have a chance)


Edited by wodinoneeye, 08 November 2013 - 03:59 AM.

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#19 ShivaFang   Members   -  Reputation: 121

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:10 PM

My suggestion would be;

  1 - whip up a quick prototype with minimal graphics and the core functionality in place.  

  2 - Get people to test it.

  3 - see if the end result matches what you think is supposed to happen.

 

Sometimes with a mechanic like this players will do the exact opposite of what you would expect them to do.

 

The problem I see resembles what happened with Sony's Legend of Dragoon, where you build up spirit and when you have a full bar you could change into a dragoon.  You could only use magic in Dragoon form, and it also had the ability to heal when you defended.  You build up spirit when you attack.  The intention was for them to fight in human form and every third or fourth round they would upgrade and kick some ass.

 

Now, what a lot of 'powergamer' player did was equip an accessory that gave them SP when they defended.  So they would do nothing but defend for several rounds (reducing damage and getting the minor healing) until they were ready to Dragoon up.  Thus, they only actually dealt damage with Dragoon characters, and never when in 'human' form.

 

When I read the original post - I can just see some form of unexpected power-game strategy like this to come out of it that is entirely unintentional and counter to your goals.


Edited by ShivaFang, 24 November 2013 - 07:16 PM.





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