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Industrial revolution strategy (post mortem and ideas)


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#21 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4479

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 06:25 AM

Maybe a prototype will move the discussion forward :)

http://www.silverlemur.com/work/ir-prototype.zip

(the mechanic is as described in the first post, just made some cosmetic changes and added half working map)


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#22 mippy   Members   -  Reputation: 1004

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:16 PM

Economics and production is very much about allocation, which means network graphics (lines) as the core game-board. When you have the maps built with polygons this generates lots of problems. As an example, canals and rivers were hugely important for transportation (one of the reasons china could not get industralized hundred years ago - their rivers from coal-rich inland to the coast were too wild). 

 

If you would reboot your game then a network as the core interface (both graphically and game-logic wise) would make your job much easier. You could then "wrap the nodes" in polygons to create the areas. 

 

The second thing I'm thinking about is the usage of phases and stacks. I could not find anything written about it this is how I would have done it: 

  • Production phase (items appear, depending on production/transformation capacity)
  • Allocation phase (move stuff from one stack/node to another, for a cost of some form) . Some nodes have good connections (canals/rivers) and cost nothing, wile others are very expensive (push it through!)
  • Adjustment phase/Construction phase (do some politics, like assign more labour or invest in a node/city).
  • Repeat! 


#23 TechnoGoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2881

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 05:27 PM

I gave the demo a quick try.  But I couldn't figure out what was going on.  I just built in one province till most of my population was employed then hit next turn a few times.  I gained a bunch of resources but that was it.  

 

What am I suppose to be doing?

What limits my development?  Building factories doesn't seem to consume any resources or take any time.  

There was a wage figure but if there was money involved anywhere in the game than I can't see where it comes from.



#24 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4479

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:24 AM

Thanks for trying the prototype!

 

 

 


Allocation phase (move stuff from one stack/node to another, for a cost of some form) . Some nodes have good connections (canals/rivers) and cost nothing, wile others are very expensive (push it through!)

I was thinking about trasporting resources (allocation) but I think I will ignore that part. The thing is the game is turn based, so it's kind like a "photo". Moving resources is best for realtime (note that *all* games that are about moving stuff around (Roailroad Tycoon, Settlers) are realtime), where you have a "movie", you can see the goods actually moving. For turn based... I don't think it could be presented in an equally good way.

 

So, I think I will just skip it and make "all resources being available to all factories" as a sort of central country stockpile. Or maybe just add "if a steel foundry is in a province that has coal mine it gets +20% efficiency".

 

 

 


I gave the demo a quick try. But I couldn't figure out what was going on. I just built in one province till most of my population was employed then hit next turn a few times. I gained a bunch of resources but that was it.

What am I suppose to be doing?

What limits my development? Building factories doesn't seem to consume any resources or take any time.

There was a wage figure but if there was money involved anywhere in the game than I can't see where it comes from.

Most of it was not implemented yet (mostly because I was mendling with moving resources between provinces). So I will just describe hoiw I plan it to look smile.png

* building factories uses planks, bricks and money; it's conctructed instantly but you have to wait till workers populate it, so in practice it would take several turns before it reaches full efficiency

* each factory has automatic set wages, you pay it to workers

* all population pay tax (partially based on wages)

* all population consume some resources (food, furniture, cloths and other consumer goods) each turn (farmers consumption is halved, except food), they pay you for it (based on average wages); if there is shortage of food some die, if shortage of consumer goods (unlikely except beginning) they are unhappy

* generally you produce more goods your population can consume, so you want to export finished goods, that would be an important source of income

 

Unless you have other/better idea I will implement the system above.


Edited by Acharis, 23 December 2013 - 09:25 AM.

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#25 TechnoGoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2881

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:15 AM

What if instead paying salaries.  You had a tierd population system like in the Cesar games? Basic level 1 people only consume food.  As long you have enough to food to feed people they are happy and productive.  But if you want them advance to higher levels then you need to make goods and a services available to them. A level 2 citizen might require access to one finished good a turn, while a level 10 requires access to all goods and services.   

 

Ideas for advantage of Higher citizen levels:

  • Increased tax revenue
  • Improved efficiency a level 2 citizen might be 20% more effective then a level 1.
  • Minimum levels for buildings.  A hospital might only employ level 5+
  • Private buildings.  Level 4s might quit their factory jobs and start opening stores, and restaurants, which increases happiness and culture.
  • Unlock useful bonuses - Get enough level 5s together and they open up a private shipping business which provides a small steady stream of export revenue.
  • Tech upgrades -  Higher level citizens have a better chance of discovering a new technology for you to use.


#26 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4479

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 01:05 PM


What if instead paying salaries. You had a tierd population system like in the Cesar games?
Yes... I was thinking of pops tiers too, I would also prefer to avoid too much economy for pops (like salary from player's treasury or them buying stuff from player). But I have some problems how to fit it into the game.

 

* how to call those tiers/levels of population?

* there is already "pops level" in a form of education, that was important in that era and I wouldn't want to get rid of schools... Education might be redundant with those tiers of pops.

* how to upgrade pops to higher tiers? Manualy or automatic? What happens if there is not enough luxury goods (required downgrade)?


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#27 TechnoGoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2881

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 03:19 PM

In the caesar games upgrades were automatic once a household had access to the necessary resources or services.  For instance to go from level 3 to 4 might require you have school in that province.   Not building a school means that even if you supplied every other resource your pop never surpassed level 3.

 

What happened in ceaser is you built a say a pottery workshop and a market every house within range of the market gained pottery as long as you had enough production to supply them.  Insufficient pots meant houses either didn't upgrade or downgraded.  There was no player interaction in the upgrade process beyond building the right products and services.    As soon as a house had what they needed they upgraded and if they couldn't get it for long enough they downgraded.  

 

What I would suggest is that each turn if you have enough service and resource capacity available in a province then a percentage of the people advance one level. Resources and services covers everything from toilet paper to a university.  The player is then challanged to have the right mix up population, production, and services.  



#28 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4479

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 08:12 AM

Maybe like this (please, make a sanity check, especially if that's not too complex):

 

* I agree that promotion to higher classes should be automatic. Manual worked in Imperialism 1 & 2, but they had no provinces with separate population.

* I think I will need 3 classes:

1) peasants (farmers, sherpherds, fishermen, wood cutters), they require no housing and have low consumption needs

2) labourers (factory workers, miners), they benefit from basic education

3) intellectuals (teachers, clerks, administrators), high education is critical, sophisticated consumption needs, require luxury goods

 

Consumption - population do not pay for goods, just consume it. It increases their happiness (each class separately). So, it's easy to keep peasants happy since they don't require much consumer goods, but if you want highly educated intellectuals you need spice, sugar, tabaco and other stuff.

 

Efficiency - the happiness affects efficiency (each class separately), also education affects efficiency (except peasants). Therefore a happy and highly educated pops are more efficient in their jobs.

 

Money flow (sort of) - population is being paid by production facilities (farms, mines, factories), but they never spend any money, it just increases their happiness. Population pay taxes, which reduces their happiness. The player can also get money by exporting finshed goods (the prefered method of getting funds, since it allows high wages and low taxes, therefore a happy population).

 

Migration & jobs & promotions - the migration and jobs taken would be driven by happiness. Each production facility would have wages, it attracts workers. Also, highly educated pops would get more happiness from haigher class jobs (educated don't want to be peasants anymore) even if the wages are worse. A portion of population would each turn check the happiness of lower and higher class, if these are better than their current one they will promote/demote one level.


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#29 powerneg   Members   -  Reputation: 1473

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:38 AM

Do you want (complex) road systems appearing/build and units moving around the map,

or rather just having each province have some icons to represent some factories, a railroadstation and some military bases ?



#30 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4479

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:03 PM

Do you want (complex) road systems appearing/build and units moving around the map,

or rather just having each province have some icons to represent some factories, a railroadstation and some military bases ?

No, definitely not complex. The game is not about transporting goods. There can be roads and railroads, but more like a variable, not the core mechanic.

As for units, I strongly prefer to avoid them, or to minimize that aspect.

 

Generally I want provinces (with icons as you described) and then detailed province view (with info what exactly the province has).


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#31 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4479

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 03:05 PM

A screen of the provinces map. It should make it easier to visualize smile.png

ir-screen-map_zpsec586314.png


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#32 powerneg   Members   -  Reputation: 1473

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 09:22 PM

The game is definately gonna need governors or something to give bonuses to/change provinces.

 

For the farmers, just let them make their money in the kapitalistic/free trade, improve the province's infrastructure(add roads, add traffic lights, add traffic rules etc.)
so they become more efficiënt and have spare workers that can work for you.



#33 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4479

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 03:27 AM

The game is definately gonna need governors or something to give bonuses to/change provinces.

Good, I'm finally starting to convey the spirit of the game :) Yes, for such a game governors of provinces are a must. That's one of the reason for so few provinces, so it's managable by the player, so he can remember (more or less) where he put what governor and which province produces what.

 

The bonuses part is pretty obvious to me, but can you elaborate on the "change provinces" part?

 

 

For the farmers, just let them make their money in the kapitalistic/free trade

That's my biggest dilemma/objection. Have you played Victoria: the empire under the sun? It had such "free trade and posession of things by the population", in the end I have not enjoyed it so much (all the random factories that were popping up built by capitalists population), I had no control of that aspect and not so much fun...

On the other hand, assets owned by population is natural and realistic and makes sense...

 

I need an advice/opinion on this.


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#34 powerneg   Members   -  Reputation: 1473

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 10:37 AM


The bonuses part is pretty obvious to me, but can you elaborate on the "change provinces" part?

I meant that the bonus(es) should count to something that make the needs of the provinces change,

for example instead of giving a bonus of +10% income from selling the factory-goods, have universities produce new graduates quicker so the

province has a constant (higher)need for new housing and jobs or something.

 


That's my biggest dilemma/objection. Have you played Victoria: the empire under the sun? It had such "free trade and posession of things by the population", in the end I have not enjoyed it so much (all the random factories that were popping up built by capitalists population), I had no control of that aspect and not so much fun...

On the other hand, assets owned by population is natural and realistic and makes sense...
I need an advice/opinion on this.

But i only have one opinion and already gave it :(

 

Nah but seriously, i haven't played Victoria but i 've played another game(whom's title i don't recall, probably for good reason) that had a big independent kapitalism/free trade going on, there was no control, but also no clear way of knowing what they were going to do, which often meant opponents killed my civilian-units because they wandered off; babysitting without baby-sitting tools xD

Thing is, thus far you 've been designing the game(the real game, what the player gets/needs to do) and only coming to the farmers last and trying to dump the last of the game-formulas/balance on that group to make it a working whole, seems like the correct design-focus to me :)



#35 GTEntertainment   Members   -  Reputation: 501

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 08:13 PM

My brother is an artist so I can get him to make a better map.

I'm da almighty Gear


#36 GTEntertainment   Members   -  Reputation: 501

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:23 AM

Not to sound to critical but the game is un-user friendly. It would be nice if there was a tutorial. But overall its pretty good, it has some artwork that needs to be done...but its still a prototype so thats acceptable.


I'm da almighty Gear


#37 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4479

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 09:25 AM


But i only have one opinion and already gave it

Me sorry, I know I'm mercilessly squeeze out the last ounce of idea/feedback from people smile.png Thanks for posting.

 

Another questions related to farms.

- Should there be one "crop" per province or more? For example, should one province produce both wheat and sheep?

- "peasants" class would deal with fishing, farming and woodcutting. Fishing does not eat up land (obvious), but what about woodcutting? If you build a woodcutters camps should it reduce the amount of farms? Or should there be "forest resource" that provide "slots" for woodcutting that is not competing with farming?

- should all provinces have forests (ability to produce wood)? Or just some?

 

 

 


My brother is an artist so I can get him to make a better map.

The map is generated, not drawn (click the EditMap button to check it). Unless you meant a better shape of provinces and colours?

 

BTW, there are various "modes" there, which one you think look best?

 

 

 


Not to sound to critical but the game is un-user friendly. It would be nice if there was a tutorial. But overall its pretty good, it has some artwork that needs to be done...but its still a prototype so thats acceptable.

I always make the tutorial last (when I know what will work how in the final version biggrin.png). But, please, continue keeping an eye on userfriendliness level, it's important.


Edited by Acharis, 09 January 2014 - 09:26 AM.

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#38 powerneg   Members   -  Reputation: 1473

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:25 PM


- Should there be one "crop" per province or more? For example, should one province produce both wheat and sheep?

If the farmers are gonna stay "independent" they should have no particular problems supplying the province, else the player will have to deal with those problems, and since farmers are "independent" or at least do what they please, it would only frustrate a player .

(i assume only one crop would give the farmers problems)

 

Wood:

as i would do it, provinces have X forests, enough to provide for X lumbercamps, a player can research/add a replantation-building to a province and from then on the province will have enough trees to supply X multiplied by 1.2 or 1.5 lumbercamps.



#39 Acharis   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4479

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 06:19 PM


Wood:
as i would do it, provinces have X forests, enough to provide for X lumbercamps, a player can research/add a replantation-building to a province and from then on the province will have enough trees to supply X multiplied by 1.2 or 1.5 lumbercamps.
Well... I want to avoid "reforestation" in any form. I mean, the game is primarily about industry, about dirty coal and foundries polluting rivers to make steel. Making the player worrying about planting trees, just... does not seem compatible with the mood of the game :)

 

OK, what you think about this:

- each province has 3 farming slots (all fully developed/fixed, can't change these), the player can set what is produced in each slot (wheat/sheep/cattle/fruits). There is an icon describing what will grow best on what slot (a typical province would have 1-2 fertile slots suitable for wheat and 1 suitable for animals only (sheep can breed perfectly everywhere, even in mountains))

- each coastal province has also fishing slot with max fishing wharfs, you need to develop/build these (you start with 0/20 for example)

- some provinces have wood slots (identical like fish)

- some provinces have ores (coal, iron, tin, copper, clay) slots (identical like fish)

 

Each of the slots above would have "richness" parameter (50%-150%) which describes how efficient gathering that resource/crop there is (do not mistake it with max number of buildings).  So for example you could have 0/20 coal slot with 80% richness (which mean you can build 20 coal mines in that province but each would produce only 80% of default number of coal), forests usually/always would have everywhere richness of 100%.


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#40 powerneg   Members   -  Reputation: 1473

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:11 PM

Not too bad.

You can have the efficiency of every(/every 5th) next fishing slot diminish as the fishermen need to go out to unfished waters.

 

What's gonna be the goal of the game ?






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