Jump to content

  • Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account


Why it is so hard?


Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.

  • You cannot reply to this topic
14 replies to this topic

#1 programad   Members   -  Reputation: 136

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 30 January 2014 - 02:45 PM

I'm Daniel Gomes a 31 dev from Brazil.

 

I'm a senior financial developer for quite some time but I'm developing my first game, Jetpack Race.

 

I'm posting on forums, interacting with people and trying to create som network, get to know some other devs, and other kind of professinals. My main goal, for now is to find some 2D and 3D artist to work on the game.

 

But seems like every single professional is already occupied! No artist seems to be looking for some challenge. I mean, I know that my project does not involve money, only profit-share, but is very ease to find programmers and even musicians, the same doesn't happen for visual artists.

 

Why is so hard to find visual artists? I'm not on this market so could someone explain why "visual artists" are sooooo busy

 

I think they dont take freelance projects very often and just work on agencies and marketing companies.

 

Do you guys have the same feeling about it?



Sponsor:

#2 alnite   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1996

Like
3Likes
Like

Posted 30 January 2014 - 05:44 PM

I am not sure how artists could be hard to find, but to tell you the truth, if I were an artist, I too would be skeptical of these "profit-sharing" projects.

 

It's much easier to pay things up front.  Profit sharing is what mostly inexperienced developers would promise.  They can't pay, so they promise they would share profit.  Is there even a profit to begin with?  How can you guarantee profit?



#3 Tom Sloper   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7458

Like
5Likes
Like

Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:31 PM

Daniel, it's hard because:

1. Everything is hard.

2. You're not offering fair compensation. "Profit-share" is just another word for "work for me for free," and everybody knows it except you.  I'm not saying this to make you mad, or to start an argument.  It's a fact.  If you have a serious project, you need to write a serious business plan that shows how your business will make a profit, and get some funds so you can pay people up front. 

 

Since your real question is "how do I get artists to work on my project," I moved your discussion to the Production And Management forum.

Good luck!


-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com

Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.

#4 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 16358

Like
3Likes
Like

Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:58 PM


I think they dont take freelance projects very often and just work on agencies and marketing companies.

Professional artists take freelance projects all the time.  I have a few friends who make a living doing exactly that. They key is that they get paid.


I mean, I know that my project does not involve money, only profit-share, but is very ease to find programmers and even musicians, the same doesn't happen for visual artists.

Perhaps it is just your circle of acquaintances. 

 

This board is mostly programmers, so it is unsurprising to have not enough art types. I have known hobby groups of animators, modelers, and artists who had trouble searching for programmers to build games with. Go to deviantART to find people with the opposite problem.

 

The key is that these are hobby groups. They are not professional groups.  Professional programmers, musicians, and artists work under terms of contracts and legal agreements and they get paid directly for their work.

 

If you have many like-minded friends you might be able to get a group of hobby developers that includes artists, modelers, and animators. Just don't delude yourself that a non-professional group without a business plan will ever make a profit.  Do it because you want some practice and because it is fun, not because you intend to make a profit.


Check out my personal indie blog at bryanwagstaff.com.

#5 programad   Members   -  Reputation: 136

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:15 PM

You guys have really good points on the subject.

 

But, look, I'm a programmer and I work for money, just like everyone else. But sometimes, I just work for fun on small projects. It just depends on how much time I will spend on that. Maybe that project I worked for free can bring me some networking, some contacts and maybe some money. Who knows?



#6 Tutorial Doctor   Members   -  Reputation: 991

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 30 January 2014 - 09:10 PM

I don't understand why it would be hard to find artists, unless they are occupied. But if they are established in the industry, then maybe they have clout and can charge money for work. But for artists who are just starting, they will usually work for free to build a portfolio. 

 

There are so many projects in this world though, what would make yours so special? Of course, giving them money would make it special enough. hehe. 


They call me the Tutorial Doctor.


#7 Tom Sloper   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7458

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 30 January 2014 - 11:50 PM


if they are established in the industry, then maybe they have clout and can charge money for work

 

No maybe about it. Pros don't buy into the "pay you if a miracle happens" thing.


-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com

Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.

#8 the incredible smoker   Members   -  Reputation: 171

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 31 January 2014 - 09:57 AM

The people who you search all are getting payd 3000 a month for what they do,

so they have no time for your or mine project.

 

Note : i am searching 3D artists to ( or a 3Dmax package to use for myself ), i am willing to trade for exclusive electronical music.

 

What i,m saying is : maybe you can trade your skills here with others, only problem is : were all programmers, do you have more skills maybe ?

I,m willing to make music for you if you do something for my game to.

 

greetings


Visual Pro 2005 C++ DX9 Cubase VST 3.70

Working on : LevelContainer class & LevelEditor


#9 JDX_John   Members   -  Reputation: 242

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 31 January 2014 - 10:07 AM

 "Profit-share" is just another word for "work for me for free," and everybody knows it except you.  I'm not saying this to make you mad, or to start an argument.  It's a fact. 

 

While I don't disagree with Tom on the main point, this isn't a rule it's just a safe generalisation to make. Some (probably lots) of projects set up as profit/revenue sharing and pay out. It's just that in nearly all cases, the project never gets finished. People get bored, or it's a hobby project.

 

If you can find a way to convince people it's a deadly serious commercial project, you can attract people to work with you. It's simply the truth though that 95% of the time, the only way to convince people is to put money up :)

 

People who take on "pay you if we make money" projects should always do so on the understanding that this won't happen, so that if any money comes up it's a nice surprise rather than they're relying on it as income.


www.simulatedmedicine.com - medical simulation software

Looking to find experienced Ogre & shader developers/artists. PM me or contact through website with a contact email address if interested.


#10 programad   Members   -  Reputation: 136

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 31 January 2014 - 10:29 AM

I'm planning the following:

 

  1. Code until June;
  2. Launch Teaser trailer on June;
  3. Buy advertising on Facebook (already tried 2 days advertising and it was awesome);
  4. Advertise on every game website I know after July;


#11 Ravyne   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5757

Like
2Likes
Like

Posted 31 January 2014 - 12:33 PM

I don't think that profit-share is a non-starter out-of-hand, but you'll need to manage your expectations. Imagine that roles are reversed -- you work as a professional programmer in your day job, and an artist approaches you to work on a project for profit-share. Their idea sounds somewhat interesting, but it isn't quite your cup of tea, and you've got a hundred ideas of your own that would probably be more fulfilling. What do you do?

 

This is why people already making money on their talents are hard--though not impossible--to secure on a profit-share basis. And you may not be competing only with their day jobs, but also other freelance or moonlighting work that might either be paying up front, or which simply might hold more appeal for them. A talented artist can literally pick any project of their choosing to become involved in.

 

Less experienced, qualified, or skilled artists are more available, but may not give the level of work you would prefer. If you're not willing to settle, a less-skilled artist might be willing to work for less, and perhaps their skill will grow, or they will at least be able to carry you to a point where you can recruit a more skilled artist to help polish things up. If you were to end up taking this route, you need to be clear and honest up front about what you're offering and what you expect, and you need to stick to it -- everyone needs to be on the same page, or that artist is going to feel used when someone better comes along. Even if their art never makes it to the final product, they should still be compensated in a measure equal to the time they put in and their skill level, and they should get a game credit or whatever other fringe benefits they have coming (The credit and fringe benefits are often what lesser-skilled artists are after, because they're trying to build up their portfolio and experience).

 

Money does two things for a part-time developer in securing an artist -- firstly, it guarantees the artist some compensation for his work, and secondly it says that you are serious about completing this project. A profit share of an unreleased project is exactly $0, regardless of how many hours of work everyone has put in. You need to trust that the other person is just as committed to you to delivering a product that's complete and suitable for sale. Its hard to trust a stranger, or even someone known to you when you're talking business, but being compensated or holding some kind of collateral can make that less of an issue.

 

Keep in mind, you don't have to do pure up-front payment or pure profit-share. You still need to offer enough up front to be taken seriously, but there's many more people willing to work for 25-50% up-front than there are for 0%. If you don't know what kind of offer to make, you can make a similar proposal to what they make in many creative industries where a producer or publisher is involved -- You define the pay-rate as a royalty or profit-share, but pay some figure $X up-front to secure the work; when the project is complete and earning money, you begin to tally their share, but you don't pay the first $X because its already been paid up front. They only get the profit-share they've earned above and beyond $X, and if their share of profit never grows beyond that, then $X is all they get.



#12 programad   Members   -  Reputation: 136

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 31 January 2014 - 12:40 PM

I don't think that profit-share is a non-starter out-of-hand, but you'll need to manage your expectations. Imagine that roles are reversed -- you work as a professional programmer in your day job, and an artist approaches you to work on a project for profit-share. Their idea sounds somewhat interesting, but it isn't quite your cup of tea, and you've got a hundred ideas of your own that would probably be more fulfilling. What do you do?

 

This is why people already making money on their talents are hard--though not impossible--to secure on a profit-share basis. And you may not be competing only with their day jobs, but also other freelance or moonlighting work that might either be paying up front, or which simply might hold more appeal for them. A talented artist can literally pick any project of their choosing to become involved in.

 

Less experienced, qualified, or skilled artists are more available, but may not give the level of work you would prefer. If you're not willing to settle, a less-skilled artist might be willing to work for less, and perhaps their skill will grow, or they will at least be able to carry you to a point where you can recruit a more skilled artist to help polish things up. If you were to end up taking this route, you need to be clear and honest up front about what you're offering and what you expect, and you need to stick to it -- everyone needs to be on the same page, or that artist is going to feel used when someone better comes along. Even if their art never makes it to the final product, they should still be compensated in a measure equal to the time they put in and their skill level, and they should get a game credit or whatever other fringe benefits they have coming (The credit and fringe benefits are often what lesser-skilled artists are after, because they're trying to build up their portfolio and experience).

 

Money does two things for a part-time developer in securing an artist -- firstly, it guarantees the artist some compensation for his work, and secondly it says that you are serious about completing this project. A profit share of an unreleased project is exactly $0, regardless of how many hours of work everyone has put in. You need to trust that the other person is just as committed to you to delivering a product that's complete and suitable for sale. Its hard to trust a stranger, or even someone known to you when you're talking business, but being compensated or holding some kind of collateral can make that less of an issue.

 

Keep in mind, you don't have to do pure up-front payment or pure profit-share. You still need to offer enough up front to be taken seriously, but there's many more people willing to work for 25-50% up-front than there are for 0%. If you don't know what kind of offer to make, you can make a similar proposal to what they make in many creative industries where a producer or publisher is involved -- You define the pay-rate as a royalty or profit-share, but pay some figure $X up-front to secure the work; when the project is complete and earning money, you begin to tally their share, but you don't pay the first $X because its already been paid up front. They only get the profit-share they've earned above and beyond $X, and if their share of profit never grows beyond that, then $X is all they get.

I like the idea of mixed payment, Thanks for the enlightenment, Ravyne.

 

I'm a professional programmer and I'd love if a talented artist (even if it is his first game) invite me to some project because im new to the gaming industry as well. I want to work on as many part-time project I can help on this beginning.



#13 Elysium   Members   -  Reputation: 115

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:41 PM

I am a programmer and do some art. My problem with taking profit sharing is that to many people have offered it. There are a whole lot of people making games. Few of them will ever succeed in even completing there project.

 

Your best bet is to find someone who is not that great at there skill yet. Don't offer profit sharing. Present it as an opportunity to expand there portfolio. Maybe if possible give them space on your website to show off there portfolio. Present this as a challenge not a job. And above all show some respect and understanding of what they do.

 

It takes some time to to create art just like it does to program. Most programmers seem to treat artists as if what they do isn't really work. That the art just randomly appears. I have experienced this on more than a few occasions.

 

Offering to pay even if it is in small amounts over time, is more likely to get you an artist than profit sharing. 



#14 Apox206   Members   -  Reputation: 124

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 03 February 2014 - 03:52 PM

Another reason is everyone has their own project. Why work on someone else's idea for free when you can work on your own. 



#15 Greg Quinn   Members   -  Reputation: 135

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:58 PM

Most 'profit-sharing' projects never come to life, they are built on a very rocky foundation, and most people in the industry are well aware of that. 

And as Apox said if people are going to work on something in their own time it will usually be on their own pet projects, why should they work on yours for free?

 

Bottom line, if you want to make games and get good solid artwork, you need to pay for it.






Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.



PARTNERS