Jump to content

  • Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account


caveman rpg - should snow put out your fire?


Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.

  • You cannot reply to this topic
19 replies to this topic

#1 Norman Barrows   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2058

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:44 AM

caveman rpg - should snow put out your fire?

 

http://www.gamedev.net/blog/1730/entry-2258672-caveman-v30-general-desciption/

 

rain puts out fires that aren't in shelters. 

 

right now, snow does too. should it?

 

 


Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1988"

 

rocklandsoftware.net

 


Sponsor:

#2 Orymus3   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8278

Like
5Likes
Like

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:42 PM

Snow, by itself, shouldn't extinguish a fire unless we're talking about a massive snow storm. On the other hand, a lot of wind might.

If the fire is sufficiently sheltered by rocks, it should alleviate the wind issue, therefore fire would remain.

 

Though fire is useful to heat a cave, it should also be usable to cook meat in plain sight (assuming there's at least some cover from wind). 

 

Thus, I don't believe that light snow should extinguish a fire like rain would, but it could be circumpstancial.

 

(coming from a country where snow lasts 4-5 months...)



#3 kseh   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2003

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:17 PM

Of the (not too many) occasions I've been able to have a fire outside during winter, I don't think I remember a time where it snowed so much that it would put out the fire. If it's too cold, a fire that doesn't have some sort of shelter to keep the heat in isn't going to help much. And if it's particularly windy, you're probably going to be worrying about exposed skin before you worry about your fire going out. I think the question is, do the weather effects impact the cavemen more than the fire such that having a fire outside is pointless?



#4 sunandshadow   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4858

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:45 PM

If you can actually pick up a basket full of snow (which is something cavemen did to get water - set the snow next to a fire until it melts, get water) dumping that much snow on a fire would put it out.


Phone game idea available free to someone who will develop it (Alphadoku game - the only existing phone game of this type is both for windows phone only and awful. PM for details.)


I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.


#5 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 18735

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:46 PM

If snow is falling gently? No, the fire should just melt the snow before it hits the ground. That's like tossing a sprinkle of water on fire: Not going to bother the fire.


It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
All glory be to the Man at the right hand... On David's throne the King will reign, and the Government will rest upon His shoulders. All the earth will see the salvation of God.
Of Stranger Flames - [indie turn-based rpg set in a para-historical French colony] | Indie RPG development journal

[Fly with me on Twitter] [Google+] [My broken website]

[Need web hosting? I personally like A Small Orange]


#6 Azaral   Members   -  Reputation: 463

Like
2Likes
Like

Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:04 AM

10 inch of snow = 1 inches of rain. There is far less water in snow than there is in rain. Unless you have a ridiculous amount of snow happening, no. You have to figure that the rate of snow would have to be greater than the rate at which the fire can melt and then boil the snow, and given the small amount of water in each snow flake that rate is pretty fast.

 

edited for snow to rain correction


Edited by Azaral, 06 February 2014 - 02:30 PM.


#7 Olof Hedman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2767

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:45 AM

In really cold weather, you might have trouble even getting the fire started with primitive tools.

 

Fire needs three things to happen.

Fuel, temperature, and oxygen. Take away any of them and the fire goes out.

 

Water lowers the temperature, and soaking it means the water will keep the fuel at 100 C until the water evaporates, and 100 is way to low for fire with wood as fuel, so it wont light.

 

Light rain is not a problem for the fire either, just as light snow.

 

As long as the fire can evaporate the water before the temperature drops too much.

 

Both heavy rain and heavy snow will be a problem.

I'd expect putting out a fire is easier (that is, less water needed) with snow then with water because of the lower temperature, and the need to go through two phase changes (solid to liquid and then liquid to gas) and because a layer of snow (like if you dump a bucket) will also cut off the oxygen supply.


Edited by Olof Hedman, 06 February 2014 - 06:56 AM.


#8 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 18735

Like
3Likes
Like

Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:26 PM

10 inch of snow = 1 inches of rain.

 

Fixed. wink.png

Also varies depending on the type of snow: dusty and dry snow vs more moist snow.


It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
All glory be to the Man at the right hand... On David's throne the King will reign, and the Government will rest upon His shoulders. All the earth will see the salvation of God.
Of Stranger Flames - [indie turn-based rpg set in a para-historical French colony] | Indie RPG development journal

[Fly with me on Twitter] [Google+] [My broken website]

[Need web hosting? I personally like A Small Orange]


#9 Azaral   Members   -  Reputation: 463

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 06 February 2014 - 02:30 PM

 

10 inch of snow = 1 inches of rain.

 

Fixed. wink.png

Also varies depending on the type of snow: dusty and dry snow vs more moist snow.

 

 

LOL yeah



#10 dimescion   Members   -  Reputation: 171

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 06 February 2014 - 03:14 PM

There are special circumstances involved here. No, lots of snow can't put out a fire, but it makes it much more difficult to start, and depending on where you start the fire you could find snow CAN put it out. For example, you build a fire under a pine laden with snow and you could melt enough to start a small avalanche which puts out your fire. People have died for less. I don't know how realistic you want to be, but if you want something amazingly so you should probably start making some contacts in an anthropology forum. Be forewarned however, those perverts might ask the lady cave women to remove her top in summer weather. Leopard-skin bikinis were not in vogue at the time. wink.png

 

On a more serious note I've always been interested in creating or playing something like this and have never been able to find anything at all. I don't currently have any of the necessary knowledge to really help that much, and I'm not asking. I just wanted to say thanks, as I've always had an interest in pre-historic peoples, and anything that tries to do something that hasn't been done (much?) before gets a thumbs up in my opinion.



#11 wodinoneeye   Members   -  Reputation: 771

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 08 February 2014 - 03:34 AM

Generally not, but rarely  if it dumps sufficient snow (isnt it like a 11 to 1 ratio of volume between snow and rain??) it potentially could or form enough on the ground over time to flood the fire. (fast drifting snow is another issue)

 

Generally shelter is first thing you look for, even out in the open when there is no convenient cave/overhang (that under the pine tree idea or rather up near the trunk as a windblock)   Wind Chill will suck heat out of you faster than a fire will normally provide (then I will build a bigger fire .. and spend time in the wind chill getting the fuel for it ....).   SO cold outside (40 below) a fire can only do so much for you.


--------------------------------------------Ratings are Opinion, not Fact

#12 Norman Barrows   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2058

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:38 PM


10 inch of snow = 1 inches of rain. There is far less water in snow than there is in rain.

 

there's the formula i needed!

 

i was wondering why rain would put out a fire so much more easily - because there's so much more water!


Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1988"

 

rocklandsoftware.net

 


#13 Norman Barrows   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2058

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:50 PM

from inquiries both online and offline, the general consensus is that only massive amounts of snow will put out a fire.   the snow equivalent of a hard downpour.

 

while i do track snow accumulation, snow currently falls at a constant rate. so there is no "light dusting" vs "whiteout blizzard" thing going on. accumulations can be high, but the rate at which it accumulates is only about 1" per hour at most. 

 

perhaps i'll give snow a low chance to put out a fire - or no chance at all.  no or practically no chance sounds right.

 

as mentioned above, fires should and do perform other actions in the game: reduce animal encounters, protect from exposure to cold, cooking, etc.   melting snow for cooking is on the list, but not implemented yet.


Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1988"

 

rocklandsoftware.net

 


#14 Iron Chef Carnage   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1840

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:28 PM

Open barbecue pits work great in the snow, in my experience, but the size of the fire would definitely be a factor.  If you have different intensities of snowfall, you could have light, medium and heavy snow.  Light snow does nothing to fires, medium snow can put out a small cooking fire, heavy snow will gradually extinguish a campfire, a larger fire will be immune to any snowfall.



#15 Greykev   Members   -  Reputation: 115

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 26 February 2014 - 03:47 PM

If you're tracking snow accumulation, are the fires being built on top of that snow (basically melting a hole into it) or in an area scraped clear by the cavemen?  I could easily see the fires quenching themselves in melted snow if built on a large drift, with some sort of increased liklihood over time and also increasing the deeper the snow it's built on. 



#16 TechnoGoth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2734

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:51 AM

I'd hope the snow doesn't put out my fire especially if I need it to survive the night and keep from freezing to death.

If you have a fire intensity stat then snow and rain could reduce it by fixed amounts.  Say 2 and 5 out of a range of 1 to 10 with a score below 1 indicating the fire has gone out.  That way if they have a weak or dying fire then it goes out in snow but if they have roaring fire its just not as strong as it normally would be.  This mechanic would also make it more difficult to get a fire going and keep it alive when its snowing or raining.



#17 Norman Barrows   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2058

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:34 PM

Open barbecue pits work great in the snow, in my experience, but the size of the fire would definitely be a factor.  If you have different intensities of snowfall, you could have light, medium and heavy snow.  Light snow does nothing to fires, medium snow can put out a small cooking fire, heavy snow will gradually extinguish a campfire, a larger fire will be immune to any snowfall.

 

The fires are assumed to be well maintained.    There are actions for checking a fire as well as adding wood to a fire.

 

Accumulation is modeled, but precipitation rate is not (at least not yet).   I was considering something based on how long it had been snowing as a crude model of snowfall rate, but decided it was probably too crude a model.


Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1988"

 

rocklandsoftware.net

 


#18 Norman Barrows   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2058

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:36 PM

If you're tracking snow accumulation, are the fires being built on top of that snow (basically melting a hole into it) or in an area scraped clear by the cavemen?  I could easily see the fires quenching themselves in melted snow if built on a large drift, with some sort of increased liklihood over time and also increasing the deeper the snow it's built on. 

 

As mentioned above, accumulation rates are not yet modeled.

 

The player is assumed to clear an area of snow before attempting to make a fire, so no meltdown or runoff issues.


Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1988"

 

rocklandsoftware.net

 


#19 JustinS   Members   -  Reputation: 155

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 08:17 AM

I am at a ski lodge. It is snowing. The outdoor fires are fine. There are even multiple kinds of fires to try it with, all of them are fine and in fact do not seem to care about the snow at all.

No man is an island,

Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; 
It tolls for thee.

 

-John Donne


#20 Norman Barrows   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2058

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:29 AM

I am at a ski lodge. It is snowing. The outdoor fires are fine. There are even multiple kinds of fires to try it with, all of them are fine and in fact do not seem to care about the snow at all.

 

Thanks for the reality check! 

 

it looks like 1 inch rain = 10 inches of snow is the reason.

 

i'm about 50 miles south of Washington DC, about 1500 yards from the mouth of the Potomac river where it empties into the Chesapeake bay.  we sometimes get intense rainstorms here in the summer (1/2 inch per hour ?).   that would be the equivalent of 5 inches of snow in one hour. and snow generally just doesn't fall that fast. perhaps 1 to 2 inches per hour at most (except maybe in the rockies, urals, alps, siberia, antartica, etc). i suspect the colder conditions required for snow tend to inhibit heavy precipitation rates.  Any weather junkies out there to confirm this?


Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1988"

 

rocklandsoftware.net

 





Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.



PARTNERS