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Just another thought (designing a fast but powerful language)


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#41 Lactose!   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 2514

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:31 PM


In my thoughts, i've created a google chrome style browser with less than 300 lines of code. It involves some sort of AI and the language uses specify a lot.

… and if you could actually do that sort of stuff in the real world instead of in your thoughts, Google (and lots of other companies) would throw so much money at you that you could end all poverty and still have more money than you could ever spend.

 

If we're going to go all dreamy, I can think of a machine that looks like a really cool hat that you can wear, and makes every game idea you'll ever think of magically appear fully created with the best graphics and gameplay ever. You don't even have to type a single line of code. How can any other invention ever beat that for game development? It'll use some clever neuro-science or something, and you have to focus on your idea for 10 seconds.

 

There is a world of difference between "I've got this fantastical magical thought-concept for something - I'm sure it's going to be awesome" and "This is a fully-functioning realization of an idea".

The former is easy. Ideas are generally easy.

Execution is hard.



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#42 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:37 PM

In my thoughts, i've created a google chrome style browser with less than 300 lines of code. It involves some sort of AI and the language uses specify a lot.

… and if you could actually do that sort of stuff in the real world instead of in your thoughts, Google (and lots of other companies) would throw so much money at you that you could end all poverty and still have more money than you could ever spend.

If we're going to go all dreamy, I can think of a machine that looks like a really cool hat that you can wear, and makes every game idea you'll ever think of magically appear fully created with the best graphics and gameplay ever. You don't even have to type a single line of code. How can any other invention ever beat that for game development? It'll use some clever neuro-science or something, and you have to focus on your idea for 10 seconds.

There is a world of difference between "I've got this fantastical magical thought-concept for something - I'm sure it's going to be awesome" and "This is a fully-functioning realization of an idea".
The former is easy. Ideas are generally easy.
Execution is hard.
it just seems right and mine involves coding.
I need to think more.
I heard never throw away an idea.

UNREAL ENGINE 4:
Total LOC: ~3M Lines
Total Languages: ~32
smile.png
--
GREAT QUOTES:
I can do ALL things through Christ - Jesus Christ
--
Logic will get you from A-Z, imagination gets you everywhere - Albert Einstein
--
The problems of the world cannot be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. - John F. Kennedy


#43 BHXSpecter   Members   -  Reputation: 1132

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:53 PM


I need to think more.

There is an old saying I've been told for years that I think applies nicely to that: "Think less, code more."


I heard never throw away an idea.

That is true. Every game idea I have had, I have wrote into a series of notebooks. If you don't have them, get notebooks to write the idea in or type up the idea, print it out, and then store them in a binder. Above all else, code, always code, even if you just do tests for ideas, you must always code something as it will help you improve.


"Through vengence I was born.Through war I was trained.Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose."


#44 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:04 PM

I need to think more.

There is an old saying I've been told for years that I think applies nicely to that: "Think less, code more."

I heard never throw away an idea.

That is true. Every game idea I have had, I have wrote into a series of notebooks. If you don't have them, get notebooks to write the idea in or type up the idea, print it out, and then store them in a binder. Above all else, code, always code, even if you just do tests for ideas, you must always code something as it will help you improve.
I will. I have several ideas in several notebooks, i don't really like typing down my ideas.

UNREAL ENGINE 4:
Total LOC: ~3M Lines
Total Languages: ~32
smile.png
--
GREAT QUOTES:
I can do ALL things through Christ - Jesus Christ
--
Logic will get you from A-Z, imagination gets you everywhere - Albert Einstein
--
The problems of the world cannot be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. - John F. Kennedy


#45 ultramailman   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1558

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:32 PM

Are you planning to write a compiler for this language you have in mind?



#46 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:07 AM

In my thoughts, i've created a google chrome style browser with less than 300 lines of code. It involves some sort of AI and the language uses specify a lot.

specify object:specify object function{}
I can't seem to think of console programs in the language. Only GUI programs.

Are you planning to write a compiler for this language you have in mind?

Yeah. An ide.
Won't i have to?

UNREAL ENGINE 4:
Total LOC: ~3M Lines
Total Languages: ~32
smile.png
--
GREAT QUOTES:
I can do ALL things through Christ - Jesus Christ
--
Logic will get you from A-Z, imagination gets you everywhere - Albert Einstein
--
The problems of the world cannot be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. - John F. Kennedy


#47 fir   Members   -  Reputation: -443

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:09 AM

 

 

Yersterday, i read an article saying that ruby/python programs involve 5x less lines than c and c++ programs. What does this mean?

 

 

dont think so, I was not using python to much but this would

meen (if the function of your code will stay the same and they

if they doing something nontrivial but real code - stay the same)

that every of such function will be compressed  5X of 4X

- i dont see it - it will be about the same [esp if you will remove the blank lines and move code like

 

void f()           {

  if(a==0)        {

      b++;            } }

 

(years ago i was using thic convention, this is not so bad imo)

 

what else python make to short sources compared to c ?

(maybe something but it would be imo more like 20% shorter not 5X 

 

 

You do realize that when we say that Python code is shorter than e.g. C code we're not talking about removing the curly braces and a few comments, right? We're talking about the high-level structure of the code - Python is typically more expressive in less code, because it has a lot of stuff built-in (and cross-platform, for the most part), it's designed for short and concise syntax so that you don't have to implement all the stuff you need manually or use an external library (if even possible, like syntactic sugar).

 

 

 


(if the function of your code will stay the same and they
if they doing something nontrivial but real code - stay the same

 

That's the point - the code doesn't stay the same. It becomes shorter as a lot of the low-level complexity you have to deal with in C or C++ for instance is handled by the language and the runtime itself. Functions disappear because they become built-in, paragraphs of code become shorter because you don't need many lines to declare, initialize and populate a dictionary (key-value store) from a file, you can do it in one, you don't need to formally define complex object relations and dependencies since you have duck typing, variables are automatically freed, nontrivial command-line parsing is built-in and you don't have to go dig up a library on the internet and learn how to use it (more or less everyone uses argparse), big integers are built-in, you can even run Python code dynamically from existing code, etc, etc...

 

If you think Python is just C minus the curly braces then you clearly have never used it. It has its failings and doesn't work for everything (writing a large business application would probably get messy, and it has its warts) but when you use it - or Ruby, by the way, everything I said above almost certainly applies to Ruby even though I've never used it - for what it's meant for, the resulting code is surprisingly short and fluent.

 

 

well, i dont know (i used a python to wrote a simple mandelbrot set viewer a couple of years ago and that is all my knowledge of python)

 

i think 90% of c programs length are user defined labels, the rest is keywords (mostly return float double int) and a dust of symbols (overpresent in c imo)  [your very right about this that declaration 

lines consume space in c thats good point]

 

one could move some code lines by makin things built-in as you said

but could you give some some examples for things that are biult in 

in ptyhon and canot by shortened in c by moving them to library and

just use library (It is maybe possible but i dont see it because idont

know python to this extent)

 

after all i still doubt if python can shorten sources even 3 times not to mention 5 times - the main fail of c is maybe its overuse of symbols here



#48 Bacterius   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8178

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:31 AM


one could move some code lines by makin things built-in as you said
but could you give some some examples for things that are biult in 
in ptyhon and canot by shortened in c by moving them to library and
just use library (It is maybe possible but i dont see it because idont
know python to this extent)

 

You can move the entirety of your program into a library and call it in a single line from your main function. Does that make it the shortest program ever?


The slowsort algorithm is a perfect illustration of the multiply and surrender paradigm, which is perhaps the single most important paradigm in the development of reluctant algorithms. The basic multiply and surrender strategy consists in replacing the problem at hand by two or more subproblems, each slightly simpler than the original, and continue multiplying subproblems and subsubproblems recursively in this fashion as long as possible. At some point the subproblems will all become so simple that their solution can no longer be postponed, and we will have to surrender. Experience shows that, in most cases, by the time this point is reached the total work will be substantially higher than what could have been wasted by a more direct approach.

 

- Pessimal Algorithms and Simplexity Analysis


#49 fir   Members   -  Reputation: -443

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:42 AM

 


one could move some code lines by makin things built-in as you said
but could you give some some examples for things that are biult in 
in ptyhon and canot by shortened in c by moving them to library and
just use library (It is maybe possible but i dont see it because idont
know python to this extent)

 

You can move the entirety of your program into a library and call it in a single line from your main function. Does that make it the shortest program ever?

 

you could also built-in your program in python so it wold be 1:1

python wouldnt be 5 times shorter or it will be?

 

Im saing that defining things and moving them away of the code 

should be excluded from comparison - I mean if you confront some 

python builtins compare tham against c with library 

 

except when you give examples of things that python could really short and this would be hard to achive in c + lib (Im just interested in examples on this)



#50 Olof Hedman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2662

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:16 AM

Are you sure what you want/need is a new language, and not just a nice framework/library for whatever task it is you want to achieve?

 

There is no language that is best on everything (or produce the least amount of lines for everything), you have to define what you want to do first.

 

Without a task, the discussion is rather pointless.



#51 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:30 AM

Are you sure what you want/need is a new language, and not just a nice framework/library for whatever task it is you want to achieve?
 
There is no language that is best on everything (or produce the least amount of lines for everything), you have to define what you want to do first.
 
Without a task, the discussion is rather pointless.

if i wanted to use a framework that could do what i wanted to achieve (there is none), my first post on this forum wouldn't have been about making game engines :)

UNREAL ENGINE 4:
Total LOC: ~3M Lines
Total Languages: ~32
smile.png
--
GREAT QUOTES:
I can do ALL things through Christ - Jesus Christ
--
Logic will get you from A-Z, imagination gets you everywhere - Albert Einstein
--
The problems of the world cannot be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. - John F. Kennedy


#52 LennyLen   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3397

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:13 AM

 

Are you sure what you want/need is a new language, and not just a nice framework/library for whatever task it is you want to achieve?
 
There is no language that is best on everything (or produce the least amount of lines for everything), you have to define what you want to do first.
 
Without a task, the discussion is rather pointless.

if i wanted to use a framework that could do what i wanted to achieve (there is none), my first post on this forum wouldn't have been about making game engines smile.png

 

 

Even if there's nothing now that can do what you want, it would be easier to create a framework and tools based on current languages than to try to create a brand new one.



#53 fir   Members   -  Reputation: -443

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:18 AM

 

Are you sure what you want/need is a new language, and not just a nice framework/library for whatever task it is you want to achieve?
 
There is no language that is best on everything (or produce the least amount of lines for everything), you have to define what you want to do first.
 
Without a task, the discussion is rather pointless.

if i wanted to use a framework that could do what i wanted to achieve (there is none), my first post on this forum wouldn't have been about making game engines smile.png

 

i wonder if discussing YOU is not pointles, probably it is a bit pointless if you know what i mean, You are making yourself a bit like center of this forum by stating a banal statements ( like a big thousands of newbies before) or statements wich subjects is less the programing and more your person not programming -[ though on the other side, I did the same thing 10 years ago, also you have right to make simple statements,] I would like to comment in the same mode you do to share my own opinion not only yours here



#54 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:33 AM

Are you sure what you want/need is a new language, and not just a nice framework/library for whatever task it is you want to achieve?

There is no language that is best on everything (or produce the least amount of lines for everything), you have to define what you want to do first.

Without a task, the discussion is rather pointless.

if i wanted to use a framework that could do what i wanted to achieve (there is none), my first post on this forum wouldn't have been about making game engines :)

Even if there's nothing now that can do what you want, it would be easier to create a framework and tools based on current languages than to try to create a brand new one.
i will try that, it will help me to gain more experience. Qt is on my list.

UNREAL ENGINE 4:
Total LOC: ~3M Lines
Total Languages: ~32
smile.png
--
GREAT QUOTES:
I can do ALL things through Christ - Jesus Christ
--
Logic will get you from A-Z, imagination gets you everywhere - Albert Einstein
--
The problems of the world cannot be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. - John F. Kennedy


#55 LennyLen   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3397

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:36 AM


i will try that, it will help me to gain more experience.

 

You probably want to get the experience first before even attempting it.  What you're considering is a huge task for a single person with a lot of experience.



#56 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:58 AM

i will try that, it will help me to gain more experience.

 
You probably want to get the experience first before even attempting it.  What you're considering is a huge task for a single person with a lot of experience.
I'll definitely need to learn more than c++ and lua. I want everything to be right. This is like the only project i think i *may* not want to do solo.

UNREAL ENGINE 4:
Total LOC: ~3M Lines
Total Languages: ~32
smile.png
--
GREAT QUOTES:
I can do ALL things through Christ - Jesus Christ
--
Logic will get you from A-Z, imagination gets you everywhere - Albert Einstein
--
The problems of the world cannot be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. - John F. Kennedy


#57 fir   Members   -  Reputation: -443

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 11:40 AM

 


In my thoughts, i've created a google chrome style browser with less than 300 lines of code. It involves some sort of AI and the language uses specify a lot.

… and if you could actually do that sort of stuff in the real world instead of in your thoughts, Google (and lots of other companies) would throw so much money at you that you could end all poverty and still have more money than you could ever spend.

 

If we're going to go all dreamy, I can think of a machine that looks like a really cool hat that you can wear, and makes every game idea you'll ever think of magically appear fully created with the best graphics and gameplay ever. You don't even have to type a single line of code. How can any other invention ever beat that for game development? It'll use some clever neuro-science or something, and you have to focus on your idea for 10 seconds.

 

There is a world of difference between "I've got this fantastical magical thought-concept for something - I'm sure it's going to be awesome" and "This is a fully-functioning realization of an idea".

The former is easy. Ideas are generally easy.

Execution is hard.

 

haha, hat, that was good 



#58 ApochPiQ   Moderators   -  Reputation: 14295

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:39 PM

You still don't even know what problem(s) you are trying to solve. Unless and until you can name a concrete area in which your language will be different, you're just scrabbling around in the dark. And unless you can argue convincingly that that language difference is an advantage, nobody will ever care.

 

 

I started building a new programming language eight years ago. It still is far from finished and lacks even the most basic tools like a debugger. Granted, I don't spend huge chunks of time on it except for rare occasions, but that should give you some idea of what you're up against. Oh, and I started with a very clear list of things I wanted to solve and why my approaches were advantageous.



#59 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:57 PM

You still don't even know what problem(s) you are trying to solve. Unless and until you can name a concrete area in which your language will be different, you're just scrabbling around in the dark. And unless you can argue convincingly that that language difference is an advantage, nobody will ever care.
 
 
I started building a new programming language eight years ago. It still is far from finished and lacks even the most basic tools like a debugger. Granted, I don't spend huge chunks of time on it except for rare occasions, but that should give you some idea of what you're up against. Oh, and I started with a very clear list of things I wanted to solve and why my approaches were advantageous.

i see that (you) replied on one 2007 article on how to make debuggers.

UNREAL ENGINE 4:
Total LOC: ~3M Lines
Total Languages: ~32
smile.png
--
GREAT QUOTES:
I can do ALL things through Christ - Jesus Christ
--
Logic will get you from A-Z, imagination gets you everywhere - Albert Einstein
--
The problems of the world cannot be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. - John F. Kennedy


#60 ultramailman   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 1558

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:35 PM



ultramailman, on 18 Feb 2014 - 4:32 PM, said:

Are you planning to write a compiler for this language you have in mind?

Yeah. An ide.
Won't i have to?

 

You won't have to. But it might be good to try writing a compiler for a simple and existing language first. After that, you should have more insight.






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