Jump to content

  • Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account


No Low Level Programming is better ?, Please explain this then ?


Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.

  • You cannot reply to this topic
28 replies to this topic

#1 the incredible smoker   Members   -  Reputation: 309

Like
-13Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 10:30 AM

Hello, i was getting the advice that : low level optimalisations are bad.

 

Now i was reading : the new PS4 is not backwards compatible, because of the different architecture.

 

How does that rhyme ?,

Sounds to me they only use low level programming ???

 

i bet a hacker still can play old games on the new PS4.

But i know why Sony does stuff like this : They wanto sell you your games again that you already have, now as download.

 

They also sell ingame stuff, and game upgrades, i dont know if i still wanto call myself a gamer, if thats what a gamer is, someone who pays all the time.

Ill be waiting until the games are 5,- each, secondhand before buying a PS4,

if theres no more games available on CD with PS5, only downloads?, then i stop buying Sony Playstation.

 

If someone can explain to me about the low level programming?, i would feel better if they have a good reason,

but still it would be rediculous if the PS4 cannot play PS2 games, then they are doing it on purpose.

 

greetings

 

 


S T O P   C R I M E !

Visual Pro 2005 C++ DX9 Cubase VST 3.70  Working on : LevelContainer class & LevelEditor


Sponsor:

#2 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1471

Like
1Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:40 PM

Game systems use API now-a-days for game production.

 

 I don't believe a game counsel actually used hardware interface since the early to mid 90's ...

 

 On a side note: trying to keep an API functional through several generations of hardware can be extremely difficult.


Edited by Shippou, 10 March 2014 - 12:42 PM.

 Reactions To Technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#3 ActiveUnique   Members   -  Reputation: 824

Like
6Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:45 PM

You are thinking like a smart consumer now. If you want to ask something, make it shorter so a simple minded developer like me can understand.


I've read about the idea guy. It's a serious misnomer. You really want to avoid the lazy team.


#4 Madhed   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2786

Like
3Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:54 PM

My head hurts...



#5 Ravyne   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7116

Like
62Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:32 PM

*
POPULAR

The PS4 isn't backwards compatible because the hardware, including the CPU family and instruction set, are entirely different from the PS3. The same was true of the PS3 -> PS2, and PS2->PS1, except that those systems, at least the launch models, actually included a single-chip version of the previous system to provide hardware-based backwards compatibility.

 

In general software development, you do tend to avoid programming at a level that depends on the precise characteristics of a particular hardware configuration -- for example, if Microsoft Word, or even a high-performance PC game, required say, SSE 4.1 and provided no vanilla-C++ fallback, then it would only run on very modern PCs that supported that Instruction set extension -- The software simply couldn't run on a circa 2005 PC.

 

But game consoles are different -- There's exactly one hardware configuration that will never differ over the life of the console. Games written to squeeze every last drop of power out of a launch PS4 will run on the exact same hardware when the last $99.99 PS4 rolls off the assembly line in 2024. When you know that the hardware will never change, when you know that the install-base of that configuration will be 100 million+ units, and you have a high performance target, then there are near-zero downsides to tuning your software to perform as well as it can on that platform. Sure, if you have a cross-platform game that also runs on the Xbox One, you might maintain another configuration of the software that has somewhat different low-level choices (even then, the PS4 and Xbox one are remarkably similar), but that's another 100 million+ unit platform that's never going to change either. In short, the return on investment is very, very high for tuning to those platforms.

 

I do suspect that the PS4 is actually powerful enough to emulate a PS3 in software. The PS3 got most of its computational grunt from the CELL SPEs, whose programming model is quite similar to the programmable GPUs of today that are in the PS4. In fact, the PS4 has 4 compute-only GPU clusters (in addition to 14 rendering clusters) that offer identical GFLOPS to the 8 CELL SPEs in the PS3. It should be quite feasible, I think, for Sony to write a transpiler that could read an SPE binary and output similarly-performing GPU compute code. Those GPU clusters might not work as well for some SPE workloads, so it may not be perfect, but CPU/SSE fallbacks might cover a good percentage of those. In short, it might not be able to play all games perfectly, but probably a large percentage would be possible. But this isn't anything that a hacker can achieve -- only someone with access to normal developer channels, with Sony's blessing, and with intimate knowledge of both the PS3 and PS4.

 

On top of all of that, building backwards compatibility into each new hardware unit is becoming less attractive to console manufacturers because we're reaching a point where streaming games, not unlike streaming video, is possible. As nice as backwards compatibility is, when do you actually use it? Maybe you or I might use it regularly, but most people will never use it or use it very, very rarely. Sony and Microsoft ask themselves "How much does it increase the cost of each Xbox One/SP3 to build in Xbox360/PS3 hardware, or to write a software emulator?" and then ask, "How many people will use it?" If the answers are $25, and only 5%, then the answer is that it costs them $500 to make just one user happy about having backwards compatibility. That's 2 1/2 Xbox 360s or PS3s -- If that one person really cares to keep playing his old games, is more cost-effective for them to just keep or buy the old system. Heck, buy two and stick one in a closet for 20 years so you still have one when the first finally craps out. Being able to stream games changes the equation though -- Now, Sony can have a server-rack full of cost-optimized PS3s running old games on-demand and streamed to your PS4 (or your PSvita, or your PC, or your phone) -- It may not be a 100% identical experience to having the software running on a box in your living room, but for most people it will be more than good enough, and its much cheaper for Sony to build enough of that to the people who will actually use that feature happy, and it gives them much more freedom in how they build, operate, and upgrade that system. On top of that, it solves the problem of how to make old games available (and to keep making money from them), because now users have no expectation of physical distribution.



#6 Promit   Moderators   -  Reputation: 6630

Like
10Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:00 PM

Ravyne, I feel bad that you typed that into a forum that doesn't allow upvotes. I am incredibly impressed with your patience.



#7 JDX_John   Members   -  Reputation: 284

Like
5Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 03:16 PM

Your high-level code might work perfectly on PS3 and PS4. But you still have to compile it separately for each target.


www.simulatedmedicine.com - medical simulation software

Looking to find experienced Ogre & shader developers/artists. PM me or contact through website with a contact email address if interested.


#8 Anthony Serrano   Members   -  Reputation: 1163

Like
4Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 04:17 PM

The PS4 isn't backwards compatible because the hardware, including the CPU family and instruction set, are entirely different from the PS3. The same was true of the PS3 -> PS2, and PS2->PS1, except that those systems, at least the launch models, actually included a single-chip version of the previous system to provide hardware-based backwards compatibility.


To be more specific, the PS2 and PS3 include the PS1 CPU, which is used as an i/o and audio controller. However, they do not contain the PS1 GPU - instead, when emulating PS1 games, they run code on the main CPU which translates PS1 GPU command packets into a format useable by their own GPUs.

Since the PS1 CPU was inexpensive and played a vital role in system operation, it never made sense to remove it, which is why all models of PS2 and PS3 can play PS1 games.

On the other hand, the PS2 CPU used in the early models of PS3 was still somewhat pricey, and served no purpose besides enabling PS2 compatibility - thus it was more justifiable to remove it.

#9 Norman Barrows   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2040

Like
3Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 04:54 PM

Ravyne -

 

another upvote here for your lucid explanation. well done.


Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1988"

 

rocklandsoftware.net

 


#10 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 29493

Like
9Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 05:11 PM

Ravyne, I feel bad that you typed that into a forum that doesn't allow upvotes. I am incredibly impressed with your patience.

im going to move this to For Beginners temporarily....

#11 Ravyne   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7116

Like
7Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 05:54 PM

Thank you all kindly, I never expected such a thing.



#12 Durakken   Members   -  Reputation: 529

Like
-6Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 06:32 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that it's wrong to say that PS2 and PSX's chip instruction sets were different.

PSX, PS2, and PS4 use the same instruction set and PS4 is actually stepping back to the conventional instruction set that has been around for a decade or so.

PS3 uses a different instruction set due to the cell processor and how they used the processor.

 

PSX, PS2, and PS4 use CPUs/GPUs specifically designated to their function so they know what they are doing and their processing power and all that...

PS3 uses one huge multi-core thing that is just there and all its processing power is always in flux and always changing to meet it's current demands.

 

So to emulate PSX, PS2, and PS4 on PS3 they need to write an emulator that handles all those instructions and assigning them to the processor correctly... which I imagine is pretty hard.

Reversing it to emulating PS3 on PSX, PS2, and PS4 requires that coding that does all that be removed and the piped to the correct processor... again... I imagine that is a fairly hard thing to do.

 

Either way you are looking at a reduction of efficiency and possibly a huge overhead that wasn't previously there which can cause massive amounts of problems with running the game in a playable way even without considering how many times the emulator makes a mistake and doesn't remove/put in the proper code which causes pretty bad problems too that make certain games unplayable on their own.

 

And while the consoles tend to be of greater ability than their previous generation it just isn't enough to overcome those problems. Or it just ins't worth it to developers, largely because they don't understand that every "wireless" and internet thing they put out makes their stuff less attractive to the audience they get most of their money from currently... Shooter gamers. Having streaming games do not work for Shooters because they introduce just that much more lag and lag is the bane of Shooter fans. Also because emulators are not something you can charge for...where as you can charge fir new versions of the same thing over and over again.


Edited by Durakken, 10 March 2014 - 06:35 PM.


#13 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3133

Like
6Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 06:46 PM

Hi,

 

 

Low level coding optimizations are years from being a concern of yours. After 1-3 years of making single player and multiplayer 2D games, then maybe you will be ready but perhaps you will never need to use low level coding optimizations. Using an existing game engine is a far more efficient use of your hard work instead of recreating the wheel by authoring your own low level coding.


Edited by 3Ddreamer, 10 March 2014 - 06:47 PM.

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#14 Anthony Serrano   Members   -  Reputation: 1163

Like
5Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 07:06 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that it's wrong to say that PS2 and PSX's chip instruction sets were different.
PSX, PS2, and PS4 use the same instruction set and PS4 is actually stepping back to the conventional instruction set that has been around for a decade or so.
PS3 uses a different instruction set due to the cell processor and how they used the processor.


The PS1 and PS2 CPUs have the same core instruction set, although the PS2 has several instruction set extensions as well. Furthermore, the PS1's geometry transform coprocessor is totally incompatible with the PS2's vector units; since coprocessor instructions are mixed into the code stream, this means that almost all PS1 code won't run on the PS2 CPU. So while their instruction sets are related, they aren't the same.

The PS4's CPU is a completely different instruction set from other Playstations - the PS1 and PS2 used MIPS CPUs, the PS3 CPU uses Power Architecture, and the PS4 uses an x64 CPU.

#15 ActiveUnique   Members   -  Reputation: 824

Like
3Likes
Like

Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:49 PM

upvoted Ravyn as well

 

When I saw this and commented. I happened to google and read about how so many users want it, they'll let themselves be pranked into breaking an xbox one

 

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/dec/12/ps4-and-xbox-one-so-why-arent-they-backwards-compatible

 

Also I've heard rumors you can rip open the hardware and play different cartridge games on a Sega Genesis.


I've read about the idea guy. It's a serious misnomer. You really want to avoid the lazy team.


#16 BHXSpecter   Members   -  Reputation: 1447

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:23 AM

The main reason Sony broke compatibility is believed to be purely business by some. They have stated on multiple occasions that they are trying to make their PS1 and 2 games available through the Playstation Network, but now with the PS4 out and PS3 nearing its end they can put PS3 on the PSN. If they did that, they could make you pay to buy them all over again. They claimed they were going to put a voucher program or something similar in place where you could send in your games to get a voucher so you could download them without paying again, but that never happened. 

 

When they dropped PS2 compatibility in the PS3, they claimed it was to save money, but some believe it was because the PS2 was still selling and PS3s playing those games was hurting the sales they could make on the PS2.

 

Breaking backwards compatibility also has benefits too. At least that is what I'm told ;).

 

There are always pros and cons, but I will be worried when the cons outweigh the pros and a company still goes through with it.

 

I've not read all the Xbox One conspiracy theories yet so I can't comment on them, but I know they are going to be both funny and ridiculous just like the PS3 and PS4 theories were.


Edited by BHXSpecter, 11 March 2014 - 09:26 AM.

"Through vengence I was born.Through war I was trained.Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose."


#17 Anthony Serrano   Members   -  Reputation: 1163

Like
3Likes
Like

Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:29 PM

Also I've heard rumors you can rip open the hardware and play different cartridge games on a Sega Genesis.


Not quite.

The Genesis is backwards-compatible with the Master System, but it requires an adapter (the Power Base Convertor), partly because the cartridge connectors don't match. However 3 or 4 Master System games don't work on the Genesis.

---

In more detail:

The Master System uses a 3.58 MHz Z80 CPU with 8 KB of RAM, a 4-channel programmable sound generator, and a graphics chip based on the TMS9918 (also used in the ColecoVision, MSX, and TI 99/4A among others) with an added graphics mode - the added graphics mode is the the standard, used in almost all Master System games. (Later models of the Master System added a primitive FM synth audio chip as well.)

The Genesis uses a 7.67 MHz 68000 main CPU with 64 KB of RAM, a 3.58 MHz Z80 secondary CPU with its own 8 KB of RAM (primarily used in Genesis games to control the audio hardware), the same 4-channel PSG, an FM synth audio chip (not compatible with the one used in later Master Systems), and a graphics chip based on the one used in the Master System (it featured a new graphics mode used by Genesis games, but removed the original 4 TMS9918 graphics modes). Additionally, the controllers use the same communication protocol as the Master System controllers. The cartridge connector also features a pin that can carry a signal that disables the main CPU.

The Power Base Converter has slots for Master System cartridges and cards, and when one is plugged in it uses the main CPU disable signal to allow the Z80 full control over the system. However, a small handful of Master System games use one of the 4 original TMS9918 graphics modes (rather than mode 4, the Master System mode) and thus will not run on the Genesis.

The convertor was made a separate accessory rather than being integrated into the console because the Master System frankly did not sell very well in most territories, and out-of-the-box backwards compatibility is only a strong selling point when following up a successful system.

#18 joew   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3648

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:32 PM


They claimed they were going to put a voucher program or something similar in place where you could send in your games to get a voucher so you could download them without paying again, but that never happened. 
 
When they dropped PS2 compatibility in the PS3, they claimed it was to save money, but some believe it was because the PS2 was still selling and PS3s playing those games was hurting the sales they could make on the PS2.

 

Do you have a reference/link to this voucher program rather than just making a claim? In fact Sony has run two such programs that were very specific, one that was for the PSP and the latest which was the PS3->PS4 upgrade vouchers for launch window titles. 

 

Regarding compatibility Sony cut the emotion engine from the original PS3 fabrication in order to lower cost which is what consumers demanded over backwards compatibility. Not to mention your statement makes absolutely no sense because Sony makes money on software licensing and not hardware sales, so it is actually in their best interest to be backwards compatible and sell PS2 games to PS3 owners.



#19 BHXSpecter   Members   -  Reputation: 1447

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 11 March 2014 - 11:34 PM


Do you have a reference/link to this voucher program rather than just making a claim?

I don't have the specifics to it, just that it was talked about when gamers wanted to know what they were going to do with their PS2 games now because most didn't want to go buy a PS2. I don't think it ever came about. 


Not to mention your statement makes absolutely no sense because Sony makes money on software licensing and not hardware sales, so it is actually in their best interest to be backwards compatible and sell PS2 games to PS3 owners.

You need to read it again. I never said I thought they did, but that some do as it was addressed by several gaming magazines. There are conspiracies online for every system every time a system was changed.

 

Though, I don't know about the lower cost by removing PS2 support. I paid the $600 to buy the PS3 when they first came out, a couple years back my PS3 quit working, but because my son couldn't wait for it to be repaired we bought a new one (without PS2 support) and it was still over $550, not much of a savings in my eye. I, personally would have rather had the PS2 support and paid more instead of now where I have my PS2 collection and no way to play them and no way to sell them. At the time I bought the PS3 with no PS2 support companies like GameStop no longer bought used PS2 games and I still have several I liked playing. 


"Through vengence I was born.Through war I was trained.Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose."


#20 HyperV   Members   -  Reputation: 769

Like
0Likes
Like

Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:35 AM


low level optimalisations are bad.

 

no offence but you should go back to school or start over.






Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.



PARTNERS