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#1 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

Posted 14 March 2014 - 09:44 AM

Hope it comes out right.
I know being an indie dev means less $ and developers but does that mean you shouldn't make what you want even though it requires content or is not the ideal beginner game. On Jb-Adams blog, i see "you are not making indie games". Why should games be classified as indie or professional? What is so wrong in making a game that seems AAA even though you are indie? And why does "AAA games have million dollar budgets and many developers" come up everytime as an excuse for a dev to not make an ambitious game?
The kind of games i see on this forum and on the net, wherever indie/beginner is involved include:
Spell casting rpg, mmo top down rpg, puzzle, turn based games, space shooter/space <something>, platformer, side scroller, top down rpg, zelda like game usually with funny/cartoony graphics.
Yes, they are fun to play but there are similar. None creates a jaw dropping effect or suspense. Just normal similar games.
I don't have problems with getting experience by making old games like Pong but it's a different case when a beginner/indie decides to make an ambitious game and the advice includes "i have (> 10 years of programming and have worked in EA, Ubisoft etc.", "games like that have million dollar budgets and many developers so scale it down or something".

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#2 Aurioch   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1304

Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:12 AM


And why does "AAA games have million dollar budgets and many developers" come up everytime as an excuse for a dev to not make an ambitious game?

 

Because that's not excuse, that's the reason. There's only certain quality that smal developing teams can make with low funding, hence they usually abandon most graphical "shinies" and rather focus on mechanics and content. You can't possibly expect that the 10-man team makes a next Call of Duty or Titanfall.

 


None creates a jaw dropping effect or suspense. Just normal similar games.

 

What would you expect? Most of the people here are either one-man teams (me included) or developers in small teams. In both cases, it's extremely hard to make anything "jaw dropping" when you solo have to do absolutely everything, so people rather stick to the "normal similar games" as they're easier to actually get done. I, for example, am making 2D game with ball which automatically goes up-down and you control its horizontal movements, and goal is to get to the exit of the level. With my level of knowledge, I can't hope make anything larger at the moment.

 


"games like that have million dollar budgets and many developers so scale it down or something"

 

That's perfectly valid advice. If you're doing any project by yourself, set its size to something you can actually manage and finish. If you want to make ambitious games, join some of the big houses and teams they have for those kind of games.



#3 Olof Hedman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2826

Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:14 AM


And why does "AAA games have million dollar budgets and many developers" come up everytime as an excuse for a dev to not make an ambitious game?

 

I don't see how you can't get this, but those many developers (and even more graphics guys) are needed to finish the game in reasonable time.

 

Sure, you can do it yourself if you are ok with it taking 100 years to complete instead of 1 year.

There is no magic, it just takes a long time to do all the work that needs to be done for an AAA title.

To get it done quicker, you add more people to work in parallel.

More people means more food needed, more clothes needed, and more families to give shelter, and therefore you need more money to pay them all so they don't starve and freeze to death before the game is done (or more likely, find some other work)

 

come on, it's not that hard to get...

 

If anyone could do an AAA title in 1 year by themselves, or with just a handful of people, there wouldn't exists big AAA companies because they would be out of business.


Edited by Olof Hedman, 14 March 2014 - 10:17 AM.


#4 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:36 AM

And why does "AAA games have million dollar budgets and many developers" come up everytime as an excuse for a dev to not make an ambitious game?

 
Because that's not excuse, that's the reason. There's only certain quality that smal developing teams can make with low funding, hence they usually abandon most graphical "shinies" and rather focus on mechanics and content. You can't possibly expect that the 10-man team makes a next Call of Duty or Titanfall.
 

None creates a jaw dropping effect or suspense. Just normal similar games.

 
What would you expect? Most of the people here are either one-man teams (me included) or developers in small teams. In both cases, it's extremely hard to make anything "jaw dropping" when you solo have to do absolutely everything, so people rather stick to the "normal similar games" as they're easier to actually get done. I, for example, am making 2D game with ball which automatically goes up-down and you control its horizontal movements, and goal is to get to the exit of the level. With my level of knowledge, I can't hope make anything larger at the moment.
 

"games like that have million dollar budgets and many developers so scale it down or something"

 
That's perfectly valid advice. If you're doing any project by yourself, set its size to something you can actually manage and finish. If you want to make ambitious games, join some of the big houses and teams they have for those kind of games.
There you go adding the same advice.
Budget for? (game engine, mocap tools, marketing etc.)

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#5 Lactose!   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 3392

Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:42 AM

As an example with quotes and numbers:

Gran Turismo 6 spends roughly 6 months on developing 1 car. Source: http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt6/cars/

Gran Turismo 6 has roughly 1200 cars. Source: http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt6/

 

These people are among the very very best in the whole world when it comes to creating this kind of game -- they've been doing it for decades.

How long do you think it would take if you had to create 1200 models of the fidelity and quality as are in Gran Turismo's models?

The answer is basically: too long.

 

That's why they hire more than 1 person to do all the modelling. Actually, they hire a huge team, just for creating those models.

Hiring a team of people costs a lot of money, and the best people usually cost more than beginners.

 

So, if you had absolutely everything else, and just needed the car models, you would either have to spend hundreds of years making models yourself, or spend a lot of money in order to get other people to make them for you.

 

Now, part of the problem is... you do not have absolutely everything else. The same logic applies to everything else in the game: sounds, particles, tracks, music, the rendering system, text (+ localized versions) … the list goes on, and on, and on.

 

There are limits to how fast someone can produce something good.

For example, I bet you understand that even if you were a super-pro car modeller person, you wouldn't be able to create 1000 unique car models in 1 day. There's just not enough hours in a day for that to make sense.

The issue is that it's equally unlikely to create 1000 unique car models to the detail level mentioned above in 1 year.

 

As I've mentioned before, if people were able to do that sort of thing, they would have been hired by the huge companies already, and the games would not take 4 - 5 (or more) years with several hundred people working on them.



#6 Josh Petrie   Moderators   -  Reputation: 3116

Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:48 AM

Moving to the lounge.


Josh Petrie | Core Tools Engineer, 343i | Microsoft C++ MVP


#7 Aurioch   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1304

Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:50 AM


Budget for? (game engine, mocap tools, marketing etc.)

 

Tools. Marketing. Licences. Living.

Until you manage to make and sell the ambitious game, you have to survive during that time. As other people said, it would take 100+ years for a single man to produce a game of AAA quality. Do you have the required money to survive until that, assuming you work only on it and don't die of old age?



#8 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:54 AM

Budget for? (game engine, mocap tools, marketing etc.)

 
Tools. Marketing. Licences. Living.
Until you manage to make and sell the ambitious game, you have to survive during that time. As other people said, it would take 100+ years for a single man to produce a game of AAA quality. Do you have the required money to survive until that, assuming you work only on it and don't die of old age?
So it's the money?

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#9 Lactose!   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 3392

Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:59 AM

Money, time, ability/skill, motivation, etc.



#10 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2143

Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:12 AM

I thought that there is an age limit on the forums.

 

He is not able to grasp simple concepts like how much time a work takes. He has been programming for 4 months, yet, he basically thinks he can program 100 times faster as an average professional programmer/modeller/writer etc.

 

A trait of a teenager.

 

 

I'm waiting for his first "idea for compressing any file to 2 bytes and decompress it with no data loss" thread.

 

 

I'm not mature enough either because these threads fuck me up and I can't resist shouting, but the Longe has been flooded with his bullshit lately.

 

 

Close this thread too, please.


Edited by szecs, 14 March 2014 - 11:18 AM.


#11 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:34 AM

As an example with quotes and numbers:
Gran Turismo 6 spends roughly 6 months on developing 1 car. Source: http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt6/cars/
Gran Turismo 6 has roughly 1200 cars. Source: http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt6/

Thanks for that.

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#12 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:37 AM

I thought that there is an age limit on the forums.
 
He is not able to grasp simple concepts like how much time a work takes. He has been programming for 4 months, yet, he basically thinks he can program 100 times faster as an average professional programmer/modeller/writer etc.
 
A trait of a teenager.
 
 
I'm waiting for his first "idea for compressing any file to 2 bytes and decompress it with no data loss" thread.
 
 
I'm not mature enough either because these threads fuck me up and I can't resist shouting, but the Longe has been flooded with his bullshit lately.
 
 
Close this thread too, please.

very nice post though i would to see where i said "i can program 100 times faster as an average professional" in this thread.

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#13 walsh06   Members   -  Reputation: 662

Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:11 PM

 

Money, time, ability/skill, motivation, etc.


thanks for that.

 

I dont get how thats not just common sense. The thing I find interesting is you have been posting about these lofty ambitions (which are great, dream big if you are going to follow through) but not once asked a question about code or a bug you have or some new concept. Its very surprising that someone who has such plans and is only starting out does not have actual code questions to ask and often.



#14 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:40 PM

Its very surprising that someone who has such plans and is only starting out does not have actual code questions to ask and often.

I don't want to post any of my codes here, not yet.
But i do post, just not here. May post in a few days.
And don't you ask code questions when you have problems. I don't have problems so i have no reason to ask, yet. It's fun helping others though.

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I can do ALL things through Christ - Jesus Christ
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The problems of the world cannot be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. - John F. Kennedy


#15 mikeman   Members   -  Reputation: 2227

Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:49 PM


What is so wrong in making a game that seems AAA even though you are indie?

 

 

Nothing at all. So...go make it. Other people's opinions about the issue do not affect your abilities to make an AAA-quality game at all. So why do you care? Why even waste a single second discussing it? 


Edited by mikeman, 14 March 2014 - 12:52 PM.


#16 walsh06   Members   -  Reputation: 662

Posted 14 March 2014 - 06:37 PM

 

Its very surprising that someone who has such plans and is only starting out does not have actual code questions to ask and often.

I don't want to post any of my codes here, not yet.
But i do post, just not here. May post in a few days.
And don't you ask code questions when you have problems. I don't have problems so i have no reason to ask, yet. It's fun helping others though.

 

You mustnt be pretty advanced then if you dont have questions. I mean most people in work are checking stack overflow or just google in general multiple times a day because thats just what you do. Or you are some kind of prodigy. What help are you providing??



#17 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

Posted 15 March 2014 - 02:50 AM

What help are you providing??

Yeah. I checked stack overflow once or twice. I haven't had any problems yet.
I'm almost done with 3 books. I'm at classes/inheritance/polymorphism and it's pretty easy.
Coding help/correction to others (console).

You mustnt be pretty advanced then if you dont have questions. I mean most people in work are checking stack overflow or just google in general multiple times a day because thats just what you do. Or you are some kind of prodigy.

What do you mean by that?
It's shocking every beginner is expected to behave a certain way. I'm not everybody, i'm a person, 1 person.
If i have problems with coding, i try to solve it on my own and have succeeded in doing that for the past months. When i did have problems, i asked but have no reason to ask now.
I don't know if i am prodigy but i know what i want to achieve.

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#18 walsh06   Members   -  Reputation: 662

Posted 15 March 2014 - 03:10 AM

Not every beginner, every programmer. But fair enough if you are getting through problems yourself then fair play. Not trying to be harsh just making some observations. 



#19 fir   Members   -  Reputation: -460

Posted 15 March 2014 - 03:51 AM

I thought that there is an age limit on the forums.

 

He is not able to grasp simple concepts like how much time a work takes. He has been programming for 4 months, yet, he basically thinks he can program 100 times faster as an average professional programmer/modeller/writer etc.

 

A trait of a teenager.

 

 

I'm waiting for his first "idea for compressing any file to 2 bytes and decompress it with no data loss" thread.

 

 

I'm not mature enough either because these threads fuck me up and I can't resist shouting, but the Longe has been flooded with his bullshit lately.

 

 

Close this thread too, please.

 

HAHA, this is worse, you're overoptymistic






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