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What is the best 3D game to make first?


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#1 Glass_Knife   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4820

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:52 AM

I've read lots of articles about 2D games where they suggest a path for development.  

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20051104034215/http://www.lupinegames.com/articles/path_to_dev.html

 

There are many different opinions, but I think starting with Tetris is a great way to go.  But I have been unable to find a comparable 3D game for starting. 

 

So I ask you Gamedev, what do you think is the best clone/genre/style for your first complete 3D game, and why?


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#2 Durakken   Members   -  Reputation: 532

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:02 AM

Resident Evil / Mario 64 / Star Fox 64

 

The best place to start is the beginning as they say and those are the games we as an art started educating ourselves how to handle 3D.



#3 Glass_Knife   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4820

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:05 AM

Resident Evil / Mario 64 / Star Fox 64

 

The best place to start is the beginning as they say and those are the games we as an art started educating ourselves how to handle 3D.

 

I was thinking about this, and I seem to remember that everyone released a driving game to get a handle on the 3D graphics.  That's just Star Fox on the ground.  Hmmm...


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#4 SiCrane   Moderators   -  Reputation: 9628

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:22 AM

A good beginning game is a Rubik's cube simulator. It's you, 36 polygons and no way out without actually understanding rotations. (Which sounds like it would be the worst locked room puzzle in an RPG ever.)



#5 JTippetts   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8583

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:25 AM

My first 3D game has been (of course) an RPG. http://i.imgur.com/OzhAThQ.jpg.

The thing with all of these pathways and timescales and suggested learning curves is that they never take into account an individual's personal interests. For example, if I had been required in the beginning to start out with Pong or Tetris, or to make a 3D racer as my first step in 3D, I would have just walked away from game development in general because those kinds of games simply are not in my area of interest at all. My focus has always been RPGs, and anything that deviates from that has been a side project at best. My advice is to follow your interests, and learn what it takes to make the 3D games that you want to make, not the games that supposed experts recommend you make.

#6 Glass_Knife   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4820

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:32 AM

My first 3D game has been (of course) an RPG. http://i.imgur.com/OzhAThQ.jpg.

The thing with all of these pathways and timescales and suggested learning curves is that they never take into account an individual's personal interests. For example, if I had been required in the beginning to start out with Pong or Tetris, or to make a 3D racer as my first step in 3D, I would have just walked away from game development in general because those kinds of games simply are not in my area of interest at all. My focus has always been RPGs, and anything that deviates from that has been a side project at best. My advice is to follow your interests, and learn what it takes to make the 3D games that you want to make, not the games that supposed experts recommend you make.

 

I wasn't really concerned with just me, but was wondering more for all beginning game programmers.  Obviously, there are some types of games that will appeal to the individual more than others, but I was more interested in a game choice that provides the most opportunity for learning without being too difficult for a beginner.  We all know how easy it is to bite off too much when just starting out.


I think, therefore I am. I think? - "George Carlin"
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#7 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:18 AM

My first 3D game has been (of course) an RPG. http://i.imgur.com/OzhAThQ.jpg.The thing with all of these pathways and timescales and suggested learning curves is that they never take into account an individual's personal interests. For example, if I had been required in the beginning to start out with Pong or Tetris, or to make a 3D racer as my first step in 3D, I would have just walked away from game development in general because those kinds of games simply are not in my area of interest at all. My focus has always been RPGs, and anything that deviates from that has been a side project at best. My advice is to follow your interests, and learn what it takes to make the 3D games that you want to make, not the games that supposed experts recommend you make.


Great post :)

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#8 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 22250

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 02:13 PM

JTippetts has a compelling argument for picking something you like, but sadly many beginners don't start small.  

 

I note that JTippetts' goblin project looks like it is now in year 11. That many years, even at a hobby level, disqualifies it from being a beginner project. Over the course of a decade you can move from beginner to veteran.

 

Most beginners aren't looking for a decade-long project.

 

"I want to make an MMORPG" is the common refrain in the For Beginners forum.  After a brief explanation about what "MMO" means, the next week it becomes "I want to make an Online RPG", then after they post a few times in the online forum and discover it requires work, a few weeks later it becomes  "I want to make an offline RPG", then if they bother to follow up, becomes "game programming is stupid. What are good free game makers?" And then a few months after they appeared on the board, they vanish after learning that while playing games is fun and entertaining and a diversion, it is different than making games which requires thought and effort.

 

 

My recommendation for beginners is the same as my recommendation for everything:  Build the simplest thing that will possibly work.  The philosophy has worked well for me for two decades.

 

Pong is a frequently suggested game because it seems relatively simple. The rules are simple. The design can be expressed in one written page.  But for a beginner implementing such a system, it can feel like barrier after barrier. You have game loops that are beyond their experience. You have graphics systems that are beyond their experience. You have input systems that are beyond their experience. You have audio systems that are beyond their experience. You have collision detection and collision response that are beyond their experience. You have game play logic that is beyond their experience. Every new system has a learning curve.

 

 

When someone says "I want to make an RPG" that can be good.  If they mean to build a tile-based world with animated sprites on the grid with a simple menu system and a simple menu-based action system for everything, that isn't too bad and with the right tools can be put together quickly in the matter of a few weeks. If they want to build a massive 3D world with articulated 3D characters holding 3D weapons each with their own animations, thousands of monsters each with their own animations, with hundreds of thousands of unique dialogue lines and dynamic story lines .... well, that is still an RPG but is something altogether beyond the skills of a beginner.


Check out my book, Game Development with Unity, aimed at beginners who want to build fun games fast.

Also check out my personal website at bryanwagstaff.com, where I write about assorted stuff.


#9 Glass_Knife   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4820

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 02:46 PM

frob, if I could vote you up more, I'd give that last post a +10.


I think, therefore I am. I think? - "George Carlin"
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#10 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 22250

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 02:53 PM

frob, if I could vote you up more, I'd give that last post a +10.

 

Thanks, but I don't think it really deserves it. 

 

It is advice you see everywhere if you look for it.  It ranges from the KISS acronym to the entire Unix philosophy. Do the easiest thing you can actually accomplish. 


Check out my book, Game Development with Unity, aimed at beginners who want to build fun games fast.

Also check out my personal website at bryanwagstaff.com, where I write about assorted stuff.


#11 Glass_Knife   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4820

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 02:55 PM


"I want to make an MMORPG" is the common refrain in the For Beginners forum.  After a brief explanation about what "MMO" means, the next week it becomes "I want to make an Online RPG", then after they post a few times in the online forum and discover it requires work, a few weeks later it becomes  "I want to make an offline RPG", then if they bother to follow up, becomes "game programming is stupid. What are good free game makers?" And then a few months after they appeared on the board, they vanish after learning that while playing games is fun and entertaining and a diversion, it is different than making games which requires thought and effort.

 

I was talking about this comedic bit here...


I think, therefore I am. I think? - "George Carlin"
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#12 Durakken   Members   -  Reputation: 532

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 03:15 PM

frob, I think it should be mentioned that using things like Unity one can easily apply 2D knowledge bases to 3D and that may actually cause people to think it is more easy to do something than it is. And adding what appears to be tiny features can cause a lot of work at either coding or understanding the concept.

 

I've come to the conclusion that what you have to do is to assign yourself homework, to complete small sections and slowly their effects add together to make whatever you want.

 

You can have a big idea if you can break it down and you have to have a good grasp of your skill levels and ability to acquire skills too... and willing to take the time to do it.



#13 Hauck   Members   -  Reputation: 223

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 03:27 PM

[...]

 

"I want to make an MMORPG" is the common refrain in the For Beginners forum.  After a brief explanation about what "MMO" means, the next week it becomes "I want to make an Online RPG", then after they post a few times in the online forum and discover it requires work, a few weeks later it becomes  "I want to make an offline RPG", then if they bother to follow up, becomes "game programming is stupid. What are good free game makers?" And then a few months after they appeared on the board, they vanish after learning that while playing games is fun and entertaining and a diversion, it is different than making games which requires thought and effort.

 

[...]

 

I can't count how many people tried learning game dev but gave up after some weeks when they realize how much work takes to make a totally stupid game. I guess I'm one in a million who can have more fun programming (games or not) than actually playing games. Games were part of my childhood (or should I say my entire childhood?) and after growing up I slowly got more selective about games, there are few out there that really can make me get into the game.

 

After some years of programming mostly for web, I realized how great it would be if I could make people have the same fun as I had when younger. Also, it's an unique sensation having all those pixels moving by your command (by your code, not just your clicks, I mean) and see people having fun with them. I guess that's the reason why I can have so much fun building a pacman, a tetris, or whatever the game.

 

It's not by the game itself, but the idea behind it, repaying all the work previous developers have spent with me, and direct this effort to the next generations.

 

 

About what kind of game would be better for starting with 3D, all I can do is recommend the obvious of trying something simply. It's the best way to keep things going forward (maybe slowly, but forward).



#14 fir   Members   -  Reputation: -460

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 03:31 PM

The easy begining is to do and render some heightmap terrain, then you could try to do some basic fly simulator or something like that - this is easy,

'for a man knowing opengl it can be done even in 1 day



#15 JTippetts   Moderators   -  Reputation: 8583

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 04:16 PM

JTippetts has a compelling argument for picking something you like, but sadly many beginners don't start small.  
 
I note that JTippetts' goblin project looks like it is now in year 11. That many years, even at a hobby level, disqualifies it from being a beginner project. Over the course of a decade you can move from beginner to veteran.


Heh, true, in a way. The goblin project is only a couple years along, but before that were several isometric experiments and projects that led to it. I did do a lot of 2D stuff before I ever switched to 3D, so the 3D switch was cosmetic only. Still, though, I have always worked on RPGs. It's why I got into game development, so all these silly progressions and learning paths that people try to pawn off just seem, to me, to be specifically engineered to drive a certain type of person away.

Most beginners aren't looking for a decade-long project.


Not necessarily true, and kind of beside the point. Beginner isn't an all-encompassing designation of common characteristics. And making RPGs doesn't have to be a decade-long affair; you can just as easily make smaller ones. Many of the original RPGs I grew up playing were hardly complex.

"I want to make an MMORPG" is the common refrain in the For Beginners forum.  After a brief explanation about what "MMO" means, the next week it becomes "I want to make an Online RPG", then after they post a few times in the online forum and discover it requires work, a few weeks later it becomes  "I want to make an offline RPG", then if they bother to follow up, becomes "game programming is stupid. What are good free game makers?" And then a few months after they appeared on the board, they vanish after learning that while playing games is fun and entertaining and a diversion, it is different than making games which requires thought and effort.


On the other hand, this is an excellent filter for those folks who might just be wasting their time chasing something they don't really want to do. Being a game developer isn't a "right" that everyone possesses. The possibility of it is, sure, but if someone can't stick it out, then they can't stick it out and it's best to find that out as soon as possible. I understand the idea of all these step-by-step progressions that everyone makes. You know, "first make Pong, then make Breakout, then make Tetris, yada, yada, yada." I get it, someone's learned a few things and they want to give a hand up to others. But the good ones, the ones who are really going to make it... well, I doubt they usually do so by sticking to any progression laid out by someone else. Instead, they'll make it by chasing their own dreams and desires with discipline and focus. If they require a roadmap laid out by someone else, then I highly doubt they have the creativity and initiative to really make it happen. You can learn the things you need to learn without ever touching a Pong or Breakout clone, if such games are not your inclination. Following someone else's curriculum just seems counterproductive to me.

My recommendation for beginners is the same as my recommendation for everything:  Build the simplest thing that will possibly work.  The philosophy has worked well for me for two decades.


+1 This is an excellent philosophy to have.

#16 ferrous   Members   -  Reputation: 2075

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 04:55 PM

You could make Pong in 3D =)  I did that for some school project a looong time ago.  In fact, I think I did it entirely within a bit blt. (it was one of those low level classes where they teach bresenham's line algorithm)

 

FPS Space games are a nice option, as they don't require all that much to get flying around.  Basic FPS games in general aren't that bad, if you discount networking, AI and graphics and just concentrate on a first person camera moving around and shooting with simple graphics.


Edited by ferrous, 19 March 2014 - 04:56 PM.


#17 Nathan2222_old   Members   -  Reputation: -400

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:17 PM

I note that JTippetts' goblin project looks like it is now in year 11.


11 years? :o

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#18 fir   Members   -  Reputation: -460

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 12:57 AM

 

I note that JTippetts' goblin project looks like it is now in year 11.


11 years? ohmy.png

 

30 for you



#19 fir   Members   -  Reputation: -460

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 01:13 AM

In general when doing 3D you must do some milestone steps I know of

 

- setup things and do show some procedural generated scene

- made some camera for it

- made code to load and show some 3d models form some common object format

 

thats where i stopped ;/ (Im doing 2d mostly), If some more experienced

person could add some more points to this list, I suspect that it maybe could be: ? some thing for objects animation, ? some code for objects interaction (collisions etc), ? more advanced lightning/coloring tehniques

 

???

 

it may sound easy but each point on this list takes its time 



#20 Buster2000   Members   -  Reputation: 1732

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 04:30 AM

From my own experience the easiest 3d games to make are first person 3d maze type games or very basic FPSs.  Just a bunch of cubes as walls add some user input to move around and some tile based collision and you are halfway there.






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