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#41 Mouser9169   Members   -  Reputation: 401

Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:58 PM

Great question. I am an artist who is learning to program so that I can make my own tools to make making art faster and more efficient. In this case I would be profiting from my art which the software helps me to perform. I'd be selling the art I made with the software, not the software itself. I stand to profit from the art.

This model can keep the software open sourced, while I still take profit off of my own individual art made with the software. My brother just told me of a gig where I could make 3d models for these two games and sell them for use in the game. People have been making thousands of dollars doing this. Profiting from their artwork, where the programming skill of another provided an easy and straightforward way to do such a thing.

I could give you a hammer or I could build you a house. I'd profit if you didn't know how to build a house, but the hammer I could give to you for free. It is a tool. But the work to do something with the tool is another thing.

There is a profit to be gained in giving information on how to do a task, but for some reason there is even more profit to be gained in doing something for someone. Some people just don't have the skills to do it, or the patience, or the money perhaps.

 

Stanley and Craftsman make their money making tools like hammers for people to build with.

 

Your model works, but it requires artists to suddenly get the desire and invest the time (which means time they're not making money as artists) to become software developers so they can make better art. This is also ignoring the fact that not all artists have the skills to become software developers to begin with (the right brain/left brain thing).

 

The artist that really profits though is again, the 2nd guy who gets the "tool" for free, while that tool - the software - cost the first guy, you in this case, a bundle to make: the price of all the artwork you didn't sell while you were learning to code and making shiny new tools. Opportunity costs are very easy to miss when figuring out what something costs you personally - but realizing that they are real and how much they are can make all the difference in the world between being profitable or never managing to make any money and never realizing why.

 

Of course, you don't have to distribute the tools, and honestly, I can't think of any reason why you would. You need every competitive advantage you can find if you plan on holding your own in a very fierce marketplace. In that case, you may end up coming out nicely ahead of where you would have been otherwise.


Edited by Mouser9169, 12 April 2014 - 07:26 AM.

"The multitudes see death as tragic. If this were true, so then would be birth"

- Pisha, Vampire the Maquerade: Bloodlines


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#42 Tutorial Doctor   Members   -  Reputation: 1806

Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:08 PM


Any kind of intangible good isn't really owned in the same sense that physical goods are owned

 

Yeah, that is why I don't get the concept of intellectual property. 


They call me the Tutorial Doctor.


#43 Tutorial Doctor   Members   -  Reputation: 1806

Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:12 PM


You need every competitive advantage you can find if you plan on holding your own in a very fierce marketplace. In that case, you may end up coming out nicely ahead of where you would have been otherwise.

 

Hehe. I used that example, because it is very close to what I am actually doing. I am an art guy, who is learning program to make better art. I would have no problem releasing the tool I make for free. But I could indeed charge for it. I use other tools meanwhile. 

 
I do have a business model that could crush all competition, but it can be considered either ludicrous or brilliant given a slight change in the intent of the business. (yeah, I typed this before in another post.) 
 
I have told people about it, and they go from calling me insane to "wow, that is a brilliant idea" when I tell them the alternate motive for the business. It is a real revelation. 

They call me the Tutorial Doctor.


#44 Mouser9169   Members   -  Reputation: 401

Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:29 PM

 


Any kind of intangible good isn't really owned in the same sense that physical goods are owned

 

Yeah, that is why I don't get the concept of intellectual property. 

 

 

Read Atlas Shrugged, or watch the movies (has the 3rd one come out yet?)


"The multitudes see death as tragic. If this were true, so then would be birth"

- Pisha, Vampire the Maquerade: Bloodlines


#45 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:01 PM

Don't read Atlas Shrugged. Its cool as a story but sadly its jam packed with Manifesto. Its like HPMOR but even more obnoxious.

 

 

The problem with open source is that its the product of already high class people pretending to live out their ideal to make themselves feel good. The vast majority of humans do not have the advantages necessary to make contributing to open source viable. And there are some terrible stories of open source programmers having their project forked and then becoming obsolete. I'm currently programming an open source game but it was a choice I made due to necessity. I didn't have the time or skills or motivation when I started to create an engine and an entire series of art assets from scratch.

 

Actually a good comparison to open source is sandbox MMOs. They seem incredible when you are young and have lots of free time and idealism about gaming. But as you get older they become a massive grind that you couldn't fit into your schedule, even if you wanted to.



#46 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 34846

Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:47 PM

Any kind of intangible good isn't really owned in the same sense that physical goods are owned

Yeah, that is why I don't get the concept of intellectual property.
It doesn't have to make sense. Paper money doesn't make sense either, but both "IP" and fiat currency are just necessary conventions that we all go along with in order to make capitalism work.

I hate IP laws, but, in the economy I was born into, if I want to make a living writing software, I've got to play that game.
If I was born into a commune where I was fed and sheltered regardless of how many people played my games, then for sure I would open source them. In reality though, I'll starve and be evicted if I don't monetize my software, through selling binary copies, running closed-source online servers, etc, etc.
Some companies like Red Hat make money by providing services surrounding open source software, but this business model doesn't translate well to games.

#47 Mouser9169   Members   -  Reputation: 401

Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:41 PM


Don't read Atlas Shrugged. Its cool as a story but sadly its jam packed with Manifesto. Its like HPMOR but even more obnoxious.

 

The 'manifesto' is why I recommended it cool.png

 

Ayn Rand was a very vocal proponent of capitalism, and the book is very relevant to the question of FOSS software development.


"The multitudes see death as tragic. If this were true, so then would be birth"

- Pisha, Vampire the Maquerade: Bloodlines


#48 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 34846

Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:07 PM

Don't read Atlas Shrugged. Its cool as a story but sadly its jam packed with Manifesto. Its like HPMOR but even more obnoxious.

The 'manifesto' is why I recommended it cool.png

Ayn Rand was a very vocal proponent of capitalism, and the book is very relevant to the question of FOSS software development.

Not just any capitalism, Laissez-faire capitalism - the "greed is good", no social bond, no government, Corporatocracy type of capitalism.



#49 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

Posted 12 April 2014 - 01:59 AM

 


Don't read Atlas Shrugged. Its cool as a story but sadly its jam packed with Manifesto. Its like HPMOR but even more obnoxious.

 

The 'manifesto' is why I recommended it cool.png

 

Ayn Rand was a very vocal proponent of capitalism, and the book is very relevant to the question of FOSS software development.

 

Objectivism ranks in the top 5 most atrocious libertarian philosophies. Have you heard the famous lotr/atlas shrugged quote? So clever.



#50 Luckless   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1973

Posted 12 April 2014 - 03:13 AM

 

Some companies like Red Hat make money by providing services surrounding open source software, but this business model doesn't translate well to games.

 

 

Crowd funding might be an interesting take on this issue however. Pre-sell your milestones, and generate a revenue stream from a fan base, then release the end product as open source. Depending on where you live such a plan may not only be viable, but highly effective.


Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.

#51 Tutorial Doctor   Members   -  Reputation: 1806

Posted 12 April 2014 - 05:23 AM

Oh definately. Can't forget that good ol' kickstarter! It's almost a no brainier to go that route, at least for now.

They call me the Tutorial Doctor.


#52 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2736

Posted 13 April 2014 - 05:22 AM

Don't read Atlas Shrugged. Its cool as a story but sadly its jam packed with Manifesto. Its like HPMOR but even more obnoxious.


The 'manifesto' is why I recommended it :cool:

Ayn Rand was a very vocal proponent of capitalism, and the book is very relevant to the question of FOSS software development.
Ayn Rand was a fucking moron. Her understanding of society and economics rivals that of a particularly slow toddler.

And by all means, read her nonsense. It's like the bible; it's only when you actually read that you can recognise how truly awful it is.
if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

#53 Tutorial Doctor   Members   -  Reputation: 1806

Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:39 AM


It's like the bible; it's only when you actually read that you can recognise how truly awful it is.

 

Eh...


They call me the Tutorial Doctor.


#54 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:21 PM

 

 

Don't read Atlas Shrugged. Its cool as a story but sadly its jam packed with Manifesto. Its like HPMOR but even more obnoxious.


The 'manifesto' is why I recommended it cool.png

Ayn Rand was a very vocal proponent of capitalism, and the book is very relevant to the question of FOSS software development.
Ayn Rand was a fucking moron. Her understanding of society and economics rivals that of a particularly slow toddler.

And by all means, read her nonsense. It's like the bible; it's only when you actually read that you can recognise how truly awful it is.

 

I can recognize how awful it is without reading it. I don't have to shoot myself to know I don't like that, same goes for bible.



#55 Mouser9169   Members   -  Reputation: 401

Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:25 PM


Ayn Rand was a fucking moron. Her understanding of society and economics rivals that of a particularly slow toddler.

 

You could easily say the same thing about Richard M. Stallman, but many people in the FOSS community seem to dig what he says.


"The multitudes see death as tragic. If this were true, so then would be birth"

- Pisha, Vampire the Maquerade: Bloodlines


#56 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:43 PM

 


Ayn Rand was a fucking moron. Her understanding of society and economics rivals that of a particularly slow toddler.

 

You could easily say the same thing about Richard M. Stallman, but many people in the FOSS community seem to dig what he says.

 

Yeah, you haven't done enough research on Rand if you compare them.



#57 Mouser9169   Members   -  Reputation: 401

Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:40 AM

 

 


Ayn Rand was a fucking moron. Her understanding of society and economics rivals that of a particularly slow toddler.

 

You could easily say the same thing about Richard M. Stallman, but many people in the FOSS community seem to dig what he says.

 

Yeah, you haven't done enough research on Rand if you compare them.

 

 

I'll admit, RMS is probably a bit further "out there" than Rand is.

 

Both of them espouse(d) ideals that don't really work well in the real world. Both of them oppose(d) a contrary ideal they saw as a growing threat to freedom. One of them peels things off his foot to eat on stage when he gets hungry. Of the two, I think Rand's ideal is worth striving for much more than RMS's. Especially as a game designer, btw: MMO economies tend to be VERY Randian.

 

People who create things should be fairly compensated for them. I've known more than a few people I believe are legitimately worth more than a million dollars a year (I've also met people earning that much who... well let's just say were worth somewhat less, IMHO).

 

Part of the problem for RMS may be due to him locking himself away in an ivory tower of academia never using "non-free" software, which means he has no idea what most of the software written these days does, who it is written for, or how it works. Rand's problem was similar, though from a different cause, seeing the extremes growing in the Warsaw Pact nations and what they were doing to the people there.

 

Even Alan Greenspan [whether you agreed with his particular brand of economics or not, _no one_ understood the American economy the way he did] erred on the side of "humanity" believing that corporations would hold themselves to at least some standard of ethics - this oversight contributed (not caused) to one of the latest banking/wall street bailouts (there have been so many I've lost track).

 

Sometimes you need to see, study, and understand the extremes so you can find the right balance in the middle.

Much of life follows that pattern.


Edited by Mouser9169, 14 April 2014 - 01:42 AM.

"The multitudes see death as tragic. If this were true, so then would be birth"

- Pisha, Vampire the Maquerade: Bloodlines


#58 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:24 AM

No, I mean Rand is way more out there than Stallman. Not only will corporations not limit their excesses but individual followers of Rand have shown what will happen if more people subscribe to her ideology.

 

The problem with fair compensation is that there is no such thing. Especially in the arts, the creative careers, politics and so forth. And perhaps most of all in finance and capital based industries. Which includes executives and what not.



#59 Tutorial Doctor   Members   -  Reputation: 1806

Posted 15 April 2014 - 10:19 AM

To AltarOfScience. I just have to say that if anything, the theme of the Bible is insight into just how aweful humanity is, rather than how awful God is for judging humanity for their awfulness. The state of the world today is evidence.

But on topic, end of topic. hehe.

They call me the Tutorial Doctor.


#60 AltarofScience   Members   -  Reputation: 935

Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:18 PM

To AltarOfScience. I just have to say that if anything, the theme of the Bible is insight into just how aweful humanity is, rather than how awful God is for judging humanity for their awfulness. The state of the world today is evidence.

But on topic, end of topic. hehe.

Humanity is also aweful at spelling. Well, awful at spelling.

 

As for the bible, your comment has nothing to do with the original bible related comment.






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