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I need some serious help from you guys! (Bring spatulas)


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#1 theflink   Members   -  Reputation: 107

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:44 AM

Yeah.. I don't know what the spatulas are for.. 

 

 

 

Hey guys, my name is Marc, and this is yet another one of those "help, i need you to tell me what to do, and im doing it in the wrong subforum) kind of thread. 

 

I'm finally done with school, and i have the means to start becoming a developer (i know this is a long and rough process)

 

I am willing to spend all the time necessary to study this craft until my skills are sufficient, and I can develop the game I have in mind. Therefore, i have some questions for you guys around starting up as a developer. I did have a look at some older threads, however i couldn't find answers (perhaps because I didn't search for too long...) and it seemed easier to write all this crap..

 

I am looking to develop a first person adventure game with a mix of black and white and colours (as in that it changes between the two at various points of  the story) As of right now, I only know a bit of Unityscript, but as I said, I am prepared to spend all the time necessary to learn whatever I need. 

 

So, what i really need to know is: What engine should I pick guys?? Like I said, it's a first person adventure (think something along the lines of Stanley's Parable). I have been messing around with both Unity and Unreal Engine 4 (I have the full subscriptionbased version) but i don't know which one i should choose? My plan is to introduce a programmer to the project when i get way further into it, so he can take care of animations and scripting, and I'll be doing level-design, artwork, soundtrack and narrating (which will be a key feature in the game) 

 

Unity uses Unityscript, as far as I know, but also C# i think??  Unreal uses C++ which I've heard is the hardest to learn/use. 

 

I really hope you guys can help me a bit? Which engine should i learn to use, and which programming language should i learn (I would only be doing basic stuff since i'll outsouce the major components of the scripting and programming..)

 

 

I really hope you guys can help ;) Thank you so much in advance, and sorry for just throwing this into the biggest subforum ,but i dont know what to do :D



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#2 Ashaman73   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 8006

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:11 AM


Therefore, i have some questions for you guys around starting up as a developer.

Developers are the guys who actually code. In game dev these people often implement AI/gamelogic/rendering systems, therefor I would sugguest to start coding of some tech demos, not games, to show off your coding skills. If you want to get a job, these tech demos + an IT degree helps a lot (I fear, that the degree will be most likely mandatory for many jobs in the AAA industry).

 

If you plan to go into game design, a small, simple, innovative game which show off some interesting game mechanism is more suiteable than using a hi-end engine to show of same fancy art which was made by someone else.

 

If you plan to go the indie-route (make a game by yourself or a small group of people), using an existing engine and making a game is a valid option. In this case a modding an existing (udk or unity based) game would be a good start.


Edited by Ashaman73, 15 April 2014 - 05:14 AM.


#3 theflink   Members   -  Reputation: 107

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:56 AM

 


Therefore, i have some questions for you guys around starting up as a developer.

Developers are the guys who actually code. In game dev these people often implement AI/gamelogic/rendering systems, therefor I would sugguest to start coding of some tech demos, not games, to show off your coding skills. If you want to get a job, these tech demos + an IT degree helps a lot (I fear, that the degree will be most likely mandatory for many jobs in the AAA industry).

 

If you plan to go into game design, a small, simple, innovative game which show off some interesting game mechanism is more suiteable than using a hi-end engine to show of same fancy art which was made by someone else.

 

If you plan to go the indie-route (make a game by yourself or a small group of people), using an existing engine and making a game is a valid option. In this case a modding an existing (udk or unity based) game would be a good start.

 

 

Did you even read my thread -_-''



#4 Boffy   Members   -  Reputation: 132

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:44 AM

I'm slight confused - if you want to do the level-design, artwork, audio....then the engine itself should really be up to the programmer to decide. Let him (or her) use their experience to pick their preferred engine, add your assets and make them work together.

 

that said, you are going to need to build a prototype before you get someone interested, for that I would advise you use the engine you feel more comfortable to get a running demo.

 

Best of luck! smile.png


Edited by Boffy, 15 April 2014 - 07:44 AM.


#5 DareDeveloper   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 978

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:45 AM

Your post seems weird. On the one hand you say you are willing to invest the time to become a developer, on the other you say a programmer will do the programming work.

 

I guess you have the wrong idea of what game development means. How far do you think you will get as a developer who is not much of a programmer?

In any case, you should not start with such a strong focus on the game you will eventually make. You need to start with simpler things.


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#6 Herwin P   Members   -  Reputation: 645

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:58 AM

Eh, I don't think starting with making a 3D game is a good idea. I mean, here you said you're just starting. Listen to any advice people give you. It's a useful attitude when you're learning. Ashaman's post is right, you know. If you want to know what you need to learn, here you go.

 

First of all, you will want to learn a programming language. For the love of all mothers, just pick one and actually get started. Don't get too busy picking the 'right' language. I'd recommend Python, though, because it's less likely to stress you with syntax errors and stuff. Well, whatever language you pick, you will end up learning about Object Oriented Programming. Make sure you understand that before going further because it will give you an abstract idea of how things work.

 

Well, there's so much after that, really. It will make a very long post to explain what you need to learn to become a game developer, because it really is a lot. My advice is to learn a programming language and try to make a simple game like Pong to give yourself a taste.



#7 theflink   Members   -  Reputation: 107

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:04 AM

I'm slight confused - if you want to do the level-design, artwork, audio....then the engine itself should really be up to the programmer to decide. Let him (or her) use their experience to pick their preferred engine, add your assets and make them work together.

 

that said, you are going to need to build a prototype before you get someone interested, for that I would advise you use the engine you feel more comfortable to get a running demo.

 

Best of luck! smile.png

 

 

Well my idea of the work i was going to do, was that I'd be doing most of the gamedesign, however, i figured I would need some type of prototype to show people what i was even talking about before I could get someone competent to work on my game.. Therefore, i would need to learn some programming as well. It would be nice to learn it anyway just for the sake of knowing how things work. 

 

 

And To Herwin: I didn't mean to be rude or anything, but I've been closely following the gaming industry for almost 10 years, and I do mean closely!  I know, what a programmer is and what he does, and I know what a Designer does. I just didn't seem like he even read my thread.. I'm not looking to get hired, and I'm not interested in making Tech demoes.. I want to make this game, and this game will be the showcase of all the things I'm about to learn. I don't have any illusions of game-developing being easy. I know it's damn hard, and I also know how it works. I just thought i made it clear from my post, that I wanted to do an indie game with me and another person who would join development at a later point.. And I don't want to mod ;(


Edited by theflink, 15 April 2014 - 08:12 AM.


#8 Herwin P   Members   -  Reputation: 645

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:28 AM

Well my idea of the work i was going to do, was that I'd be doing most of the gamedesign, however, i figured I would need some type of prototype to show people what i was even talking about before I could get someone competent to work on my game.. Therefore, i would need to learn some programming as well. It would be nice to learn it anyway just for the sake of knowing how things work. 

 

And To Herwin: I didn't mean to be rude or anything, but I've been closely following the gaming industry for almost 10 years, and I do mean closely!  I know, what a programmer is and what he does, and I know what a Designer does. I just didn't seem like he even read my thread.. I'm not looking to get hired, and I'm not interested in making Tech demoes.. I want to make this game, and this game will be the showcase of all the things I'm about to learn. I don't have any illusions of game-developing being easy. I know it's damn hard, and I also know how it works. I just thought i made it clear from my post, that I wanted to do an indie game with me and another person who would join development at a later point.. And I don't want to mod ;(

 

You need a good design document to make people interested too. Sometimes you will find difficulties in showing people a prototype (you might meet some bugs while showing them, etc), and it also takes time to make one. A well-written design document can give enough information to make people interested to join your team, and it acts as a looking-point while you're working on your game.

 

The design focus is written in the design document, as well as the sub focuses and other stuff like what engine you're going to use, what kind of art, music, why, how, etc. Even when you're working on your prototype, a design document can be helpful too, so make that first. You might find some potential problems or benefits you haven't seen before while writing it.

 

A good game designer should understand every components of a game. He needs to understand visual art, music, story telling, programming, and project management, but there's no need to be an expert on those. You don't have to be a maestro who can play 18 instruments. You just need to know what kind of music can make a boss fight feel daring.

 

For now, just learn a programming language and Object Oriented Programming. You will find a lot more to learn as you go.

 

Edit: A design focus is the idea that makes the game interesting. For example, Dark Souls' design focus could be its difficulties, because some hardcore gamers love challenge. Other stuff like gameplay, art theme, and story are chosen to achieve the focus. In Dark Souls' case, the difficulties is served in a real-time action RPG (the gameplay) and resolves around a main character who's a weak undead (story line). The game is wrapped in a dark atmosphere (visual) to support the difficult nature of the game. All of these stuff is written in the design document.


Edited by Herwin P, 15 April 2014 - 08:51 AM.


#9 theflink   Members   -  Reputation: 107

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:42 AM

 

Well my idea of the work i was going to do, was that I'd be doing most of the gamedesign, however, i figured I would need some type of prototype to show people what i was even talking about before I could get someone competent to work on my game.. Therefore, i would need to learn some programming as well. It would be nice to learn it anyway just for the sake of knowing how things work. 

 

And To Herwin: I didn't mean to be rude or anything, but I've been closely following the gaming industry for almost 10 years, and I do mean closely!  I know, what a programmer is and what he does, and I know what a Designer does. I just didn't seem like he even read my thread.. I'm not looking to get hired, and I'm not interested in making Tech demoes.. I want to make this game, and this game will be the showcase of all the things I'm about to learn. I don't have any illusions of game-developing being easy. I know it's damn hard, and I also know how it works. I just thought i made it clear from my post, that I wanted to do an indie game with me and another person who would join development at a later point.. And I don't want to mod ;(

 

You need a good design document to make people interested too. Sometimes you will find difficulties in showing people a prototype (you might meet some bugs while showing them, etc), and it also takes time to make one. A well-written design document can give enough information to make people interested to join your team, and it acts as a looking-point while you're working on your game.

 

The design focus is written in the design document, as well as the sub focuses and other stuff like what engine you're going to use, what kind of art, music, why, how, etc. Even when you're working on your prototype, a design document can be helpful too, so make that first. You might find some potential problems or benefits you haven't seen before while writing it.

 

A good game designer should understand every components of a game. He needs to understand visual art, music, story telling, programming, and project management, but there's no need to be an expert on those. You don't have to be a maestro who can play 18 instruments. You just need to know what kind of music can make a boss fight feel daring.

 

For now, just learn a programming language and Object Oriented Programming. You will find a lot more to learn as you go.

 

 

Thank you. You have been very helpful :)



#10 DareDeveloper   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 978

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:03 PM

Don't really understand the downvotes ... people read your post ... but there is a mismatch between the "I'm pumped and I will do whatever it takes" statement and "I would only be doing basic stuff since i'll outsouce the major components of the scripting and programming..".

 

We need to know your "target performance levels" as a programmer and/or as a game designer in order to provide helpful advice.

If you want to be able to develop an Indie game, you should start with something simple like Snake and Tetris.

That is the only way to see how awfully hard seemingly basic things are.

It seems that you want to make sure that are not confronted with that advice, but maybe I am wrong!?

 

I'll just say that you will pay the price if you specialize on an engine and high level libraries without getting a feel for the programming basics and the big picture stuff.


Given enough eyeballs, all mysteries are shallow.

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#11 theflink   Members   -  Reputation: 107

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:09 PM

Don't really understand the downvotes ... people read your post ... but there is a mismatch between the "I'm pumped and I will do whatever it takes" statement and "I would only be doing basic stuff since i'll outsouce the major components of the scripting and programming..".

 

We need to know your "target performance levels" as a programmer and/or as a game designer in order to provide helpful advice.

If you want to be able to develop an Indie game, you should start with something simple like Snake and Tetris.

That is the only way to see how awfully hard seemingly basic things are.

It seems that you want to make sure that are not confronted with that advice, but maybe I am wrong!?

 

I'll just say that you will pay the price if you specialize on an engine and high level libraries without getting a feel for the programming basics and the big picture stuff.

 

Why wont you listen. I just said it twice.. I really try not to seem rude but really man? I've written it twice now, that i need to learn programming and scripting so i can make a prototype, and to know what is going on. That's why i want to learn it. It's not a contradiction. I want to learn enough to make a playable prototype so i can show people my vision to get them onboard so i can actually make a good game. My goal isnt to do it all myself. I want to do all the design stuff. Get it now?? 



#12 SerialKicked   Members   -  Reputation: 576

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:32 PM

Or maybe you're the one not expressing yourself as clearly as you think you do. Because I was about to post something extremely similar to what some of us said before being ninja'ed. In any case its not necessary to be that aggressive in your post, it's really not a good trait for a designer.

 

No matter what you think:

 

In any case, you should not start with such a strong focus on the game you will eventually make. You need to start with simpler things.

 

Is a very good advice.

 

 



#13 Aardvajk   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6276

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:14 AM


Why wont you listen. I just said it twice.. I really try not to seem rude but really man? I've written it twice now, that i need to learn programming and scripting so i can make a prototype, and to know what is going on. That's why i want to learn it. It's not a contradiction. I want to learn enough to make a playable prototype so i can show people my vision to get them onboard so i can actually make a good game. My goal isnt to do it all myself. I want to do all the design stuff. Get it now?? 

 

Wow. You seem like great fun to work with. Where do I sign?

 

That aside, yes you can develop with C# in Unity and it is (so I understand) an excellent tool for prototyping and you can do a great deal without having to do much more than simple scripting. I'd suggest you look into the vast wealth of resources available for introduction to Unity.

 

Seriously, I can't google anything I'm interested in in game development now without Unity taking up the first two pages of Google.


Edited by Aardvajk, 16 April 2014 - 05:14 AM.


#14 JDX_John   Members   -  Reputation: 284

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:19 AM

 

Don't really understand the downvotes ... people read your post ... but there is a mismatch between the "I'm pumped and I will do whatever it takes" statement and "I would only be doing basic stuff since i'll outsouce the major components of the scripting and programming..".

 

We need to know your "target performance levels" as a programmer and/or as a game designer in order to provide helpful advice.

If you want to be able to develop an Indie game, you should start with something simple like Snake and Tetris.

That is the only way to see how awfully hard seemingly basic things are.

It seems that you want to make sure that are not confronted with that advice, but maybe I am wrong!?

 

I'll just say that you will pay the price if you specialize on an engine and high level libraries without getting a feel for the programming basics and the big picture stuff.

 

Why wont you listen. I just said it twice.. I really try not to seem rude but really man? I've written it twice now, that i need to learn programming and scripting so i can make a prototype, and to know what is going on. That's why i want to learn it. It's not a contradiction. I want to learn enough to make a playable prototype so i can show people my vision to get them onboard so i can actually make a good game. My goal isnt to do it all myself. I want to do all the design stuff. Get it now?? 

 

Saying you want to learn to program and the only thing you want to make is a 3D game rather than practise on something simple along the way, is like saying you want to learn to be an engineer but your first project is going to be a Formula 1 car. Making small games is PART OF learning to program, not a diversion.


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#15 doug25   Members   -  Reputation: 317

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 12:04 PM

I detected a spark of enthusiasm, from your question, which is great.  When you create a movie, all you need is a script, to begin with and you don't need experience but dedication.  I guess you could go the same way with a game.  I haven't really completed a full PC game but I've had a lot of experience programming.  After the years I wish I could have that enthusiasm that I first had.  I wouldn't want you to lose your initial vision.  If you break it down there isn't a great deal you need for a decent game, nice characters, nice scenery, dialog, networking.

 

The engine: the bullet physics engine is good for physics in your game; though at first it may seem difficult.

 

You can use the D3DX library to create 3D characters.

 

I'm talking about c++ here.

 

It could take a long time, years to learn.  I've learned it.  I'm not asking you to.

 

But a simple idea can go a long way - Flappy Bird

 

I have free time so if you want I could try my hand at making a small prototype, what do you think?



#16 Satharis   Members   -  Reputation: 1302

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 12:12 PM

If you want me to be frank being a designer doesn't really happen usually without having another core skill set like programming.

If you're really just interested in focusing on the design of games and not having to deal with all the tools then I would definitely look towards a simpler program like Game Maker or something rather than a full fledged engine like Unity.

Enthusiasm is good but I think a lot of people are just taking what you say as being impatient and not reading between the lines of what they are trying to convey to you, you're not likely to make games without being an artist, a programmer, a team leader, something like that. Just being able to do design doesn't really happen.

#17 Tom Sloper   Moderators   -  Reputation: 10178

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:18 PM


Why wont you listen. I just said it twice.. I really try not to seem rude but really man? I've written it twice now, that i need to learn programming and scripting so i can make a prototype, and to know what is going on. That's why i want to learn it. It's not a contradiction. I want to learn enough to make a playable prototype so i can show people my vision to get them onboard so i can actually make a good game. My goal isnt to do it all myself. I want to do all the design stuff. Get it now??

 

You are absolutely on the right path, in wanting to learn to make your own demo.  I have said in the past that a game designer doesn't "need" to be a programmer, but today, the more a game designer knows about programming, the better off he'll be.  So (if it seems to you that people have been discouraging you from this path) I'm with you on that.

 

However, you really need to change the way you respond to comments.  Rather than "you're not hearing me," a good game designer says "sorry I explained myself poorly, let me try to explain it another way."  A game designer's primary skill is communication. That means it's his job to make sure others understand -- it's not the job of others to work harder to understand the game designer's ideas.  If someone is misunderstanding the designer, the designer should assume that's his own fault, and should attempt (in a friendly collaborative way) to make his ideas clearer for others.  A game designer who berates his teammates is not going to earn their trust and their cooperation.


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Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.

#18 theflink   Members   -  Reputation: 107

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:28 AM

 


Why wont you listen. I just said it twice.. I really try not to seem rude but really man? I've written it twice now, that i need to learn programming and scripting so i can make a prototype, and to know what is going on. That's why i want to learn it. It's not a contradiction. I want to learn enough to make a playable prototype so i can show people my vision to get them onboard so i can actually make a good game. My goal isnt to do it all myself. I want to do all the design stuff. Get it now??

 

You are absolutely on the right path, in wanting to learn to make your own demo.  I have said in the past that a game designer doesn't "need" to be a programmer, but today, the more a game designer knows about programming, the better off he'll be.  So (if it seems to you that people have been discouraging you from this path) I'm with you on that.

 

However, you really need to change the way you respond to comments.  Rather than "you're not hearing me," a good game designer says "sorry I explained myself poorly, let me try to explain it another way."  A game designer's primary skill is communication. That means it's his job to make sure others understand -- it's not the job of others to work harder to understand the game designer's ideas.  If someone is misunderstanding the designer, the designer should assume that's his own fault, and should attempt (in a friendly collaborative way) to make his ideas clearer for others.  A game designer who berates his teammates is not going to earn their trust and their cooperation.

 

 

 

Ok. I do understand, and I'm not just aping your reply when i say that i perhaps didn't explain myself in a proper way. I'm glad you understand what I'm saying. I just got a bit frustrated with replies that didn't correspond with what I thought i had said clearly. 

 

I apologize to everyone whom I might have offended, and understand that you were all just trying to help me. Sorry. 

 

And I wasn't discarding the idea of making really simple games as tests of my ability as part of learning the craft and as a part of getting better. 

 

Thank you for understanding what I was saying Tom. And I will start getting better at my communication. Thanks, and again, sorry if I offended any of you. It was a poor introduction for me on this forum. Believe it or not, I am actually a nice guy. Maybe we should get a fresh start.. :)



#19 theflink   Members   -  Reputation: 107

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:38 AM

I detected a spark of enthusiasm, from your question, which is great.  When you create a movie, all you need is a script, to begin with and you don't need experience but dedication.  I guess you could go the same way with a game.  I haven't really completed a full PC game but I've had a lot of experience programming.  After the years I wish I could have that enthusiasm that I first had.  I wouldn't want you to lose your initial vision.  If you break it down there isn't a great deal you need for a decent game, nice characters, nice scenery, dialog, networking.

 

The engine: the bullet physics engine is good for physics in your game; though at first it may seem difficult.

 

You can use the D3DX library to create 3D characters.

 

I'm talking about c++ here.

 

It could take a long time, years to learn.  I've learned it.  I'm not asking you to.

 

But a simple idea can go a long way - Flappy Bird

 

I have free time so if you want I could try my hand at making a small prototype, what do you think?

 

I sent you a personal message. hope you'll read it :)






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