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Is working in terminal/console really a waste of time?


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Poll: Waste of Time? (83 member(s) have cast votes)

Is programming console programs a waste of time?

  1. Yes! Complete waste of time! (6 votes [7.23%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.23%

  2. No! Only a waste to those who feel they wasted their time. (77 votes [92.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 92.77%

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#41   Members   

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 11:30 AM

In addition to half a synapse, one would also need substantial amounts of free time to understand your points.

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 11:42 AM

In addition to half a synapse, one would also need substantial amounts of free time to understand your points.

 

Just parsing them into sentences is challenge enough for me.


It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.


#43   Members   

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 08:22 PM

It was not my intent for this to become a language/ide/OS flame war. I simply wanted to see if I was being antiquated in not agreeing with his point of view. I have always thought of anything you can program as a learning experience, but saw so many say it was a waste that I started to wonder. This thread has made me realize that I'm not antiquated at all, but seem to be among many that think it is a very good thing to learn if only just to have the experience. Thank you all for your feedback on that matter.



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Posted 04 June 2014 - 09:10 AM

At home, when I do "game programming", which means I'm messing around with some game idea that has, at least so far, never made it into an actual game, I like using graphics to have some nice picture to go along with what I'm doing.

At work, when I'm working on an actual game, I spend about half my time in console applications because I have worked on game servers and game clients about equally. I actually wish I had more time with consoles for some tasks, because most of my work came down to producing the correct stream of numbers in some situation, and a stand-alone console test would have been easiest to work with. Having to load up the whole game because everything's dependent on each other, which means there's no unit tests, is a pain.

Anyway, it seems like I've wasted much more time on graphical applications than on the console, at least so far.

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:05 PM

It was not my intent for this to become a language/ide/OS flame war. I simply wanted to see if I was being antiquated in not agreeing with his point of view. I have always thought of anything you can program as a learning experience, but saw so many say it was a waste that I started to wonder. This thread has made me realize that I'm not antiquated at all, but seem to be among many that think it is a very good thing to learn if only just to have the experience. Thank you all for your feedback on that matter.

The whole "everything is worth learning" line is rather nonsense in reality. If we all had unlimited lives and unlimited time that might ring true but the reality is in many cases, especially when teaching yourself, that you are going to sacrifice learning one thing in order to learn another.

There is the completely realistic possibility that a new programmer could spend 6 months making console based games when they could have been making 2d ones instead, and although they would likely have learned a few things making those console games, I would say the experience gained from making the graphical one would be much more beneficial in the long run.

More experience always tends to be helpful, but not if it has opportunity cost. Its not like making console games past the very basics of learning a language is like learning arithemtic for math. You don't need to know how to make a roguelike in order to make a graphical game. Everything is worth learning but some things are more valuable to your productivity than others, if your goal is to make 3D games you don't necessarily need to master the console to begin that.

Edited by Satharis, 04 June 2014 - 10:07 PM.


#46   Members   

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 11:38 PM

did you ever learn assembly?

bro, do u even asm?

 

I'm not sure I'd classify console programming as a waste of time. It helps when you're just starting, but from my (formal) experience, many people that start programming in a console environment end up resenting the language and the environment "Oh, this XYZ language can't do GUI! I wanna GUI, what do I use to GUI?".

 

So what I'd say is: If you're going to learn to code through the console, understand that its just a way to learn, than you're not limited to it, its just some restrictions imposed so you can focus on the basics first and foremost, without getting distracted by shiny.

 

Nothing prevents you from firing Visual Studio/QtCreator, link D3D/OpenGL and try your hand at dynamic global illumination in the first try... thing is, you start from the basics for a reason, programming gets complex really, really fast, having the fundamentals ironed out first makes sure it will be easier to navigate in the swamp that is more advanced concepts such as OOP and patterns, software architecture, project managing, performance-tailored programming, databases, sound processing, image processing, 3D rendering, and a long list of things that you can do with those small silicon chips.

 

Now, if you think you can take it, go ahead! Try whatever advanced topic you're interested on. If you keep at it, you'll learn a lot! Just don't be afraid of stepping back a little to see if you should revisit some other concepts first before jumping to the ocean, the idea isn't getting you out of programming, but getting you interested in it :)


Edited by TheChubu, 04 June 2014 - 11:49 PM.

"I AM ZE EMPRAH OPENGL 3.3 THE CORE, I DEMAND FROM THEE ZE SHADERZ AND MATRIXEZ"

 

My journals: dustArtemis ECS framework and Making a Terrain Generator


#47   Members   

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 01:02 AM

Consoles are a great way to test out ideas and algorithms.



#48   Senior Staff   

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 01:21 AM

Speaking personally, when I recommend starting with console programs I do just mean to learn the basics; whilst you certainly can take it quite far (Rogue-likes and Dwarf Fortress clones for example) I don't really recommend going much further than a "guess the number" type game unless the beginner particularly feels they need additional practice.

Completing "guess the number" should be far enough to have learned the basics of flow control (at least some form of looping and a simple conditional), simple input and output, and perhaps some basic debugging.

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 01:47 AM

 

It was not my intent for this to become a language/ide/OS flame war. I simply wanted to see if I was being antiquated in not agreeing with his point of view. I have always thought of anything you can program as a learning experience, but saw so many say it was a waste that I started to wonder. This thread has made me realize that I'm not antiquated at all, but seem to be among many that think it is a very good thing to learn if only just to have the experience. Thank you all for your feedback on that matter.

The whole "everything is worth learning" line is rather nonsense in reality. If we all had unlimited lives and unlimited time that might ring true but the reality is in many cases, especially when teaching yourself, that you are going to sacrifice learning one thing in order to learn another.

There is the completely realistic possibility that a new programmer could spend 6 months making console based games when they could have been making 2d ones instead, and although they would likely have learned a few things making those console games, I would say the experience gained from making the graphical one would be much more beneficial in the long run.

More experience always tends to be helpful, but not if it has opportunity cost. Its not like making console games past the very basics of learning a language is like learning arithemtic for math. You don't need to know how to make a roguelike in order to make a graphical game. Everything is worth learning but some things are more valuable to your productivity than others, if your goal is to make 3D games you don't necessarily need to master the console to begin that.

 

True, but if learning while making a 2D game is more beneficial over console, would just diving into 3D and learning what you would have learned doing console or 2D be more beneficial? Where do we draw the line at what can be skipped and what should be learned? Though, I never said "everything is worth learning", but rather I view "everything as a learning experience".

 

A good example, there is a kid making (or attempting to make) an RPG on the site the OP quote came from, but yesterday he posted a question about making a server/client to make it a small online RPG. The way he wanted to do the interface required a host terminal interface (similar to MySQL's mysql -u user -p password), but he skipped learning to do terminal programs or even how to use the main parameters (int argc, char **argv). I stopped helping him because he was wanting his hand held through everything. My point of this example is, that you should have a basic knowledge of the console because you never know when or where you may decide or be told to write up a program that will only be executed from the console.


Edited by BHXSpecter, 05 June 2014 - 01:49 AM.


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Posted 05 June 2014 - 03:11 AM

Its all a non-issue.

 

If you've become competent at, say, C++ by writing Direct3D Win32 applications, it will take a few hours at most to learn what you need to write console applications. If you've become proficient at writing console applications, and decide to move into Direct3D Win32 applications, apart from the new APIs, everything else you have learned just carries over.

 

As always, learn what you need to accomplish whatever your goals are at the time, and if your goals change, learn the new stuff you need. Trying to become an "expert" on everything just for the sake of it is a fool's errand.


Edited by Aardvajk, 05 June 2014 - 03:11 AM.


#51   Members   

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 03:22 AM

Who needs more than a terminal window anyway...

 

 

tongue.png



#52   Members   

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 04:54 AM

If you want to learn more specifically about game programming rather than programming in general, modding a game is much more valuable.

 

This is a pretty weird statement. Assuming that you actually intend to program a game someday then you can't either pick "programming in general" or "game programming".  Profound knowledge of the (general) programming language of choice is not an alternative to game programming, it is a requirement for game programming. Nowadays there are many ways to "make" a game but if your goal is to "program" games then getting familiar with all aspects of a programming language first is a no-brainer.



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Posted 05 June 2014 - 05:22 AM

This is a pretty weird statement. …

もいい、これ。
http://www.gamedev.net/topic/657251-is-working-in-terminalconsole-really-a-waste-of-time/page-2#entry5157692


L. Spiro

#54   Members   

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 05:27 AM

ごめん。正しくて読まなかった… 



#55   Members   

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:56 AM

Its all a non-issue.

 

If you've become competent at, say, C++ by writing Direct3D Win32 applications, it will take a few hours at most to learn what you need to write console applications. If you've become proficient at writing console applications, and decide to move into Direct3D Win32 applications, apart from the new APIs, everything else you have learned just carries over.

 

As always, learn what you need to accomplish whatever your goals are at the time, and if your goals change, learn the new stuff you need. Trying to become an "expert" on everything just for the sake of it is a fool's errand.

I completely agree, if we were talking about competent programmers, but this discussion is referring to complete beginners.



#56   Members   

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:03 AM


I completely agree, if we were talking about competent programmers, but this discussion is referring to complete beginners.

 

I'd maintain its equally true for beginners. If you want to make a simple graphical game, learning SDL or something similar from the get-go is perfectly do-able. The idea that you must start at the command line is not valid. The fact that it is what most of us did is irrelevant.

 

The important part for beginners and vets alike is to have a specific goal, then gather the knowledge to achieve it. If that goal includes getting some graphics on the screen, why not start there? What's the difference between learning the SDL API and learning the standard streams API?



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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:53 AM

I did not vote but I really feel like console games will never be a waste of time.  In theory the core concepts of game development cross between all mediums be it text, or graphical.  It is really a great way to get your feet wet.  Look at all these people who want to make MMO games like WoW or whatever as a hobby developer.  This is not really a task that can be completed by one guy.  Now what if you wanted to learn the core concepts behind making an MMO without the huge amount of effort on the content side of things as this is the real problem with the MMO on top of that learning network programming and getting things to work together.  Now lets step back if you really want to make your MMO dreams come true why not step back to the console and create a MUD.  First the content can be rather easily generated.  Next the network code and the interactivity between the server and client is less complex due to the simplicity of telnet protocols.  The MUD is a great first step in getting some experience to the direction in a MMO.  I could even imagine someone with extensive mud development experience would have some great potential portfolio samples for leverage in getting a job on a real MMO team.

 

The general rule of thumb is the console is never a waste of time and you can learn some really valuable lessons from it without the added complexity of rendering engines and graphics issues.



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Posted 05 June 2014 - 09:54 AM

My first ever game was a console RPG, you'd pick your class and then have a store or combat option.

It would of been to much to try to implement graphics, one step at a time.



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Posted 05 June 2014 - 03:35 PM

I think the fact that the thread is titled...

 

"Is working in terminal/console really a waste of time?"

 

...yet, the poll question is...

 

"Is programming console programs a waste of time?"

 

...is really twisting up the discussion, here.

 

OP: are you asking about doing your coding in a console window or writing programs/games that *run* in a console window?



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Posted 05 June 2014 - 04:19 PM

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What's the difference between learning the SDL API and learning the standard streams API?

With the latter, you don't have to make several threads in For Beginners complaining about your "unresolved external symbol" linker error (after 6 attempts at prodding you into posting the actual error instead of just saying "it doesn't work", of course!) and asking how to "install SDL in visual studio" :lol:

I'd definitely recommend that people get familiar with C/C++'s dated model of compiling and linking first, before using 3rd party libs. Cooincidental to the topic, Often this first stage is also taught via the terminal, using a text editor, compiler and linker manually, rather than using an IDE, so that the process is clear :D




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