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Next Gen MMORPGs?

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#1 ROA Head Dev   Members   -  Reputation: 134

Posted 13 July 2014 - 05:50 PM

Hey guys I'm here to tell you that I want to know what you think about next gen mmorpgs. You can answer here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1bpIrc9nl2tr3MN_gSK552QtJ4bmDOhyCOn6sNismk00/edit#



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#2 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 18837

Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:36 PM

Certainly an interesting way to approach the design for a "next gen MMO", which implies over a hundred million dollar budget.

Most projects go with actual market research, but I suppose an anonymous Internet survey is good too.
Check out my personal indie blog at bryanwagstaff.com.

#3 ApochPiQ   Moderators   -  Reputation: 14277

Posted 13 July 2014 - 09:01 PM

What about this is in any way "next gen"? You're talking about current (and sometimes very old) RPG mechanics and concepts.

MMOs are such a development money pit in large part because few people have bothered innovating in the genre over the years. If you want a shot at a slice of that pie, you need to do something fresh.

#4 sunandshadow   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4577

Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:34 AM

ROA Head Dev - no offense, but your word choices suggest that you aren't familiar enough (yet) with the terms used in current MMO design to be the lead designer of an MMO.  I went ahead and filled out the survey, but, it didn't actually ask the right questions to let me paint a picture of the kind of MMO I'd really like to play.  And there's more than one type of MMO I'd like to play, so that adds some complexity to the problem.  But, I did a survey about MMO preferences a few months ago, and the results are public, so you are welcome to look at my questions and results:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/view/forums/thread/406778/MMO-Preferences-Survey-Results-Finished.html

 

Notable results included "solo or small group PvE" being the single most popular activity to spend time doing in MMOs, while group PvE and group PvP tied for second, and Sim gameplay and Social interaction tied for 3rd.  The people who liked the solo/small group PvE and the people who liked the group PvP were almost mutually exclusive, so it would be logical to focus a game design on one group or the other.

 

My further personal conclusions at the end were:

 


Marketplace/economic play and multiplayer minigame play tend to be preferred by the same people, while this group tends to not be fond of team PvP and PvP RTS.  Theory: Perhaps this group dislikes direct violent competition but likes indirect or non-violent competition.  And the reverse applies; people who like team PvP tend to like PvP RTS but not to like economic play and multiplayer minigames; perhaps they dislike non-violent or indirect competition.  Possible correlation to Timmy, Johnny, and Spike archetypes as discussed in theory related to Magic The Gathering.

 

People who like solo or small group PvE tend to also like single player minigames and sim/crafting play, but tend to dislike both types of PvP.  Theory: This group dislikes either competition or intense socialization.

 

People with a strong preference for socialization (chatting, posting, roleplay) tend to dislike sim/crafting gamelay, single player minigames, solo/small group PvE, and 1v1 PvP.  Theory: extroverts

 

Theory: Lack of popularity of 1v1 PvP may come from the fact that it is not satisfying to either introverts (because it features human opponents who are not separated from the player by a wall of gameplay) or extroverts (because there is only one human opponent, so it's only) low grade socialization.  People who prefer 1v1 PvP may be intermediate between introverts and extroverts, and since humanity follows a bathtub curve of distribution WRT these traits, there aren't very many people in the mid-range.

 

Additional conclusions: It seems like an MMO with a dual focus on PvP and crafting will either have no audience or will have two distinctly different player types that don't get along very well.  Since may of the recently-opened sandbox MMOs have PvP and crafting, these games may experience pressures to align with one group or the other, seeing the game mature into either a PvP focused game or a Crafting focused game.


Edited by sunandshadow, 14 July 2014 - 12:35 AM.

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me.

#5 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1318

Posted 14 July 2014 - 04:05 AM

What is the definition of "next gen" ?!

 Everything ( interesting ) has been done to death in the MMO area.

"Space" - check.

"Modern" - check

"Future" - check

"Prehistoric" - check

"Anime" - check

"Hentai" - check

"Building" - check

"God Like" - check

"Military" - check

"Life Simulation" - check

"Pet Battling" - check

"Fishing" - check

"Robots / Mechs" - check

 

"Combat" -  check

"Adventure" - check

"Strategy" - check

"Simulation" - check

"Puzzle" - check

"Creation" - check

"City / Empire Building" check

"Super Powers" - check

 

"Kill things until you're level 99" - check

"Spend your entire life grinding out skills" - check

"Create your own world" - check

"Create your own MMO" - check

 

 

 Some one please show me some "next gen" MMO were I will be saying "I haven't seen that done before" .


Edited by Shippou, 14 July 2014 - 04:09 AM.

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#6 vvv2   Members   -  Reputation: 109

Posted 14 July 2014 - 04:24 AM

What is the definition of "next gen" ?

 Some one please show me some "next gen" .

- "next generation" will be only by uniting all the listed by You.. rolleyes.gif


© by "vvv2"

 


#7 sunandshadow   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4577

Posted 14 July 2014 - 04:32 AM

@Shippou - If you know of an interactive story MMO, I'd like a link to that. biggrin.png


I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me.

#8 slicer4ever   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3193

Posted 14 July 2014 - 05:04 AM

@Shippou - If you know of an interactive story MMO, I'd like a link to that. :D


ESO was a bit interactive where the world actually changed as you did quests. This however lead to a minor peoblem where your friends would be invisible to you because they were in a diffrent phase of the quest. ESO also allowed you to use some legitament kiting techniques which for an MMO was pretty nice to see(rather than in other mmo's where no matter how far away you were, the enemy hitting you was determined by dice roll.)
Check out https://www.facebook.com/LiquidGames for some great games made by me on the Playstation Mobile market.

#9 Tonchek   Members   -  Reputation: 106

Posted 14 July 2014 - 02:24 PM

Hi guys.

 

Soo i was thinking about next gen mmorpg but as far as i am concerned i havent really play any role playing game so far..

Sure there are a lot of games called mmorpg and you do play a role but not a role that has any impact on world since anyone has the same role.

 

So what i would love to see is a mmorpg that forces you to play a role and that that role has an impact on world.

What i have in mind? 

Imagine a world with no shops run by npcs. So you want to get/buy sword, well you search a player that has chosen a role of blacksmith. He is makeing swords but he needs a raw materials so he could go and get them, but that would prevent him from makeing swords, or he can go to player that has chosen to play a role of miner and he trades for that material. Of course one can have more roles but he cannot be soo efficient.

 

Do you guys understand me? its basicially a player driven economy. The game of course should have a goal.

 

I know that most players wont like this sort of game but i have enough of games that says kill x number of y animal...

 

Thats my idea of an mmorpg i would love to play.


Edited by Tonchek, 14 July 2014 - 02:26 PM.


#10 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1318

Posted 14 July 2014 - 02:56 PM

@ Tonchek

You just described about 8 different MUDs I have ran across over the years, were everything from government, to economics are ran by the community .

 Would be fun to see "100% player controlled" concept fleshed out in a 2D environment.


 Reactions To Technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#11 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 18837

Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:54 PM

Hi guys.
So what i would love to see is a mmorpg that forces you to play a role and that that role has an impact on world.
What i have in mind? 
Imagine a world with no shops run by npcs. So you want to get/buy sword, well you search a player that has chosen a role of blacksmith. He is makeing swords but he needs a raw materials so he could go and get them, but that would prevent him from makeing swords, or he can go to player that has chosen to play a role of miner and he trades for that material. Of course one can have more roles but he cannot be soo efficient.
 
Do you guys understand me? its basicially a player driven economy. The game of course should have a goal.
 
I know that most players wont like this sort of game but i have enough of games that says kill x number of y animal...
 
Thats my idea of an mmorpg i would love to play.

I suspect that you really would NOT love to play that game.

Let's say your role is shop keeper, and there are roughly 74,000 players in your realm alone. Since you are a shop keeper, your role is to stand in a booth and haggle for your entire play session. Your haggling must be fair and balanced enough to not throw off gameplay, and you must deal with 5-10 other players every minute. Some of them will dump of piles of junk for your valuable cash, others will try to swindle you out of your very rare objects.

Or, your role is inn keeper. Players come in, pay a tiny fee, then log out as you protect their belongings from thieves. You are responsible for protecting them 24/7 as they may not come back for days or weeks. Sorry, no adventuring for you unless some thief happens by, but since they are likely an experienced rogue and you are a bored shopkeeper, you won't stand a chance. Tens of thousands of players may be in your care at the inn, and you need to provide food and drink and protection to them all. That's excitement.

You mentioned a blacksmith role. You get to spend your days essentially grinding out broadswords in the hope that you make the legendary sword, or forging bolt after bolt after bolt for a chain mail, spending hour after tedious hour creating a single suit of armor. Then another suit of armor. Then another suit of armor. This is worse than level grinding, since there isn't really a point to the grinding.


It is far more fun to be the adventurer, to be the traveling trader, to be the mystic healer, or otherwise be some fantastic and interesting character. Nobody wants to be the role "grave digger" or "stable mucker", but those are the jobs that would be most realistic in those worlds.
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#12 Ravyne   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 6765

Posted 14 July 2014 - 05:18 PM

To riff on what Frob has said --

 

Most people aren't going to get their rocks off being an anonymous shop-keeper performing busy-work in a realistically-rendered, HD environment. The reality of a Serf's life is far too tedious to ever want to experience virtually. That said, there are some people who get off on economic simulations (e.g. something like railroad tycoon, or others). But in those kinds of games, you're a god-like "manager" of a particular economy, not a single man running frantically from hot-dog-cart, to carnival game counter, to roller-coaster turnstile, back to hot-dog-cart again chasing patrons.

 

Those games tickle the funnybone of some people because you get to make macro-scale decisions at a higher level instead of having to act out every boring aspect. I believe that you could have a system of in-game jobs for people to participate in, and that some people might enjoy that in and of itself. Done well, it could be interesting for both shoppe-keeps and adventurers alike. But both parties have different requirements for their interface.

 

One idea would be for the player-character in the fully-rendered world to sacrifice the hours that their shop is running (or, leaving it to an NPC employee they've hired), and then building a separate (perhaps entirely web-based) interface that they can manage their storefront(s), set buys/sell prices, buy or sell stock on a wholesale commodities market, and participate in auction or direct sale of special items and services. There are interesting potentials for gameplay here -- he could become a baron with shops in every city, or perhaps they've become known as *the* place to go for certain types of items. As your business grows, perhaps it becomes advantageous to move goods around the country-side, so maybe you begin dabbling in trade-routes and dealing with banditry (or maybe you decide to outsource to someone who specializes in moving goods, or you become that guy yourself)

 

Balance is key, though -- you have to decide to what extent you want to interfere to prevent monopolistic practices from crippling your game, and the right difficulty/reward balance to make being a shoppe-keep interesting, rather than having a system where it simply trends to parity with being in any other job or living the life of an adventurer.

 

Other interesting jobs could operate by a similar mechanism, but not all jobs will be suited



#13 sunandshadow   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4577

Posted 14 July 2014 - 05:18 PM

A career role, especially not-very-skilled labor like selling stuff, is one of the least interesting types of role one could experience in a game.  I'm all for playing a role, but I'm a l'm more interested in a role of interacting with NPCs in a way that I could actually change their minds in a way that would change their behavior, and I'm also interested in a role of building buildings and minigame-based crafting which creates the illusion of actually using skill to craft items, or sim/time-management crafting involving growing plants, breeding animals, mixing and processing ingredients to make foods, potions, dyes/alloys/fabrics, etc.  Jill-of-all-trades, one-woman-economy, rich ruler of an awesome estate and clever hunter, those are the roles I like to play.

 

But if you want to run a shop, NeoPets had a good shopkeeper minigame for years (not sure if they still have it).  I think that kind of PvE economic sim minigame within an MMO could be a lot more fun than a PvP version of the same.


Edited by sunandshadow, 14 July 2014 - 05:19 PM.

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me.

#14 Shippou   Members   -  Reputation: 1318

Posted 14 July 2014 - 05:46 PM

But if you want to run a shop, NeoPets had a good shopkeeper minigame for years (not sure if they still have it).  I think that kind of PvE economic sim minigame within an MMO could be a lot more fun than a PvP version of the same.

 Last I logged in, the "shop" has taken on a role as a commodity exchange.

 

There is actually no decent economic MMO out there that I can think of - 'bout time some one made one. tongue.png

(( I do find myself playing the "markets" in most MMOs I play  ))


 Reactions To Technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

- Douglas Adams 2002


 


#15 sunandshadow   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4577

Posted 14 July 2014 - 06:00 PM

 

But if you want to run a shop, NeoPets had a good shopkeeper minigame for years (not sure if they still have it).  I think that kind of PvE economic sim minigame within an MMO could be a lot more fun than a PvP version of the same.

 Last I logged in, the "shop" has taken on a role as a commodity exchange.

 

There is actually no decent economic MMO out there that I can think of - 'bout time some one made one. tongue.png

(( I do find myself playing the "markets" in most MMOs I play  ))

 

I'm talking about the game Plushie Tycoon.

 

I think there has been some general consensus that market play interferes with main MMO gameplay, which is why auction house taxes are used to block market play.  Other features related to market play, like restocking automation and better market search tools, seem to just be dev priorities so low they never happen.  I do remember seeing one online historical economic sim that someone was asking for beta testers here at gamedev for.  That's the kind where you get so much energy or turns per day to gather resources or put into factories to turn the resources into higher order products, and all the resources are bought and sold through the global market.  It didn't have much else besides market play though; why struggle to become rich if there's no part of the game to enjoy your wealth in yet?


I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me.

#16 Tonchek   Members   -  Reputation: 106

Posted 15 July 2014 - 07:30 AM

Hi.

 

Yestrday i forgot to write that sleeping, eating and drinking would be required.

And there wont be level system. Just skills that you aquire with hard work. (you could have more skills).

 

About role of innkeeper i didnt even think...

 

 

 


One idea would be for the player-character in the fully-rendered world to sacrifice the hours that their shop is running (or, leaving it to an NPC employee they've hired), and then building a separate (perhaps entirely web-based) interface that they can manage their storefront(s), set buys/sell prices, buy or sell stock on a wholesale commodities market, and participate in auction or direct sale of special items and services. There are interesting potentials for gameplay here -- he could become a baron with shops in every city, or perhaps they've become known as *the* place to go for certain types of items. As your business grows, perhaps it becomes advantageous to move goods around the country-side, so maybe you begin dabbling in trade-routes and dealing with banditry (or maybe you decide to outsource to someone who specializes in moving goods, or you become that guy yourself)

Thats excatly what i had in mind. So in time and if you would be persistent enough you may end up as leader of merchant empire with its ovn navy and military, like venetian merchants in their glory days.

 

I know its tedious to play such a role but it most certainly is wery important role.

And nobady says that you couldnt be adveturer if you are innkeeper.

But my point is that, if nobady wouldnt play that role, the whole world would "feel" that. To rephrase that:

If you are a blacksmith in game you would be able to dictate the turn of events and the direction that game goes.

By selling weapons and armor to people. If you are in a guild or in one kingdom your hard work will show when there is a war for land and the ones with better equipment would won, and nobady said you couldnt smash a few heads in that war.

So a good blacksmith or farmer or builder would be a wery important player in guild or kingdom.

 

It is role playin that it should be.

 

(i guess i am just a little too day-dreaming, but thats are just my wishes)

 

Sorry for my english.


Edited by Tonchek, 15 July 2014 - 07:31 AM.


#17 sunandshadow   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4577

Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:02 PM


I know its tedious to play such a role

If it's tedious, you are doing "game design" wrong.  Also, I'm sure there are people somewhere in the world who really love being a chef (for example).  There are lots of fun games where you are a chef - I like Cake Mania, and I've seen similar games where you are a sushi samurai or a witch cooking potions or a bar tender serving drinks and snacks.  This kind of job can be fun.  I would do this kind of job in an MMO if it was fun.  But who is going to play an MMO role which is tedious?  No one will, and no one should.  Giving a player tedious things to do is disrespectful to the player.


I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me.

#18 Tonchek   Members   -  Reputation: 106

Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:20 AM

Sorry i used wrong word, i ment it is boring for most people.







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