Jump to content

  • Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

Banner advertising on our site currently available from just $5!


1. Learn about the promo. 2. Sign up for GDNet+. 3. Set up your advert!


Everyone Wins?


Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.

  • You cannot reply to this topic
29 replies to this topic

#21 superman3275   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2061

Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:58 PM

I think people should be encouraged to try new things.

 

I don't think people should be told that they're the "best" just to make them feel better.


I'm a game programmer and computer science ninja ph34r.png!

Here's my 2D RPG-Ish Platformer Programmed in Python + Pygame, with a Custom Level Editor and Rendering System!

 

Here's my Custom IDE / Debugger Programmed in Pure Python and Designed from the Ground Up for Programming Education!

Want to ask about Python, Flask, wxPython, Pygame, C++, HTML5, CSS3, Javascript, jQuery, C++, Vimscript, SFML 1.6 / 2.0, or anything else? Recruiting for a game development team and need a passionate programmer? Just want to talk about programming? Email me here:

hobohm.business@gmail.com

or Personal-Message me on here smile.png!


Sponsor:

#22 alnite   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2463

Posted 28 July 2014 - 01:28 AM


Ermm....I don't know how to reply to that because you seem to be arguing a different type of reward than the article or I was talking about. My reply was commenting the article Tutorial Doctor posted ( http://prosportschick.com/editorials/the-everybody-wins-culture-in-america-how-we-are-creating-a-generation-of-losers/492/ ) and to Shippou's comment of:

 

I simply pointed out that rewarding things for hard work is a natural not artificial behavior.  Regardless of the outcome whether the kids ended up for the better/worse, they should always be rewarded for a good work.  Not rewarding them for good work would be the unnatural thing to do.  Al Capone, the example you pointed out, is a unique isolated incident, and should not be used to justify the entire rewarding system.  Al Capone would probably still ended up a criminal if they hadn't rewarded him.  If the entire family became criminals, I am sure that's not just because their parents rewarding them.  I don't think rewarding is the primary cause to that: family conflicts, issues, friends, social dynamics, politics, jealousy, all comes into play.

 

Should we reward those who aren't doing a good job?  I don't think so because we need to make the distinction - we need to make the reward feel special, hence the inherent definition of the word reward itself.  If everybody gets rewarded, then no one is actually rewarded.  If everyone is a winner, nobody is a winner, as the article pointed out.

 

We should not castracize those who aren't doing good jobs either.  Failing them out of class is the wrong thing to do.  Social shaming for getting Fs is the wrong thing to do.  Telling them they are 'stupid' is the wrong thing to do.  But rewarding them just as much as how you would reward those who have put up the good work is also the wrong thing to do.



#23 BHXSpecter   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1942

Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:52 PM

I used Al Capone because he was the most famous, but a lot of well known criminals were brought up similarly.


I don't think rewarding is the primary cause to that: family conflicts, issues, friends, social dynamics, politics, jealousy, all comes into play.

That was my point. I started that by saying:

 

 

Sure, we mold their minds some, but in the end it is their outlook that determines it. Look at Al Capone, his parents were religious and from what I have read were role model parents. His parents, from historical accounts, only awarded their kids for their achievements, but Al Capone and the rest of his brothers (can't recall how many he had) all became criminals.

The reason people award everyone isn't because they are scared of hurting their egos or feelings. It is to try and promote equality and good sportsmanship. If you are rewarding only the good players in kid teams then you run the risk of driving a wedge in the teams or the good ones getting a big ego and treating the team mates bad for not getting rewarded. You already have enough issues with kids bullying and division in schools due to how they think their status ranks them. Sports should promote unity and not more division based on how good or bad a kid is to the next one.



#24 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2954

Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:41 PM


The reason people award everyone isn't because they are scared of hurting their egos or feelings. It is to try and promote equality and good sportsmanship. If you are rewarding only the good players in kid teams then you run the risk of driving a wedge in the teams or the good ones getting a big ego and treating the team mates bad for not getting rewarded. You already have enough issues with kids bullying and division in schools due to how they think their status ranks them. Sports should promote unity and not more division based on how good or bad a kid is to the next one.

 

Depends on the sport.

 

Some sports are not about competition, but improving your own ability. Surfing, snowboarding or scuba for instance. You can have competitions in them, but most people wouldn't say that was the primary point of them.

 

On the other hand, football, basketball, rugby, athletics, swimming, etc.... these are all about competition. They're not about promoting unity, they are literally about ranking individuals or teams based on performance. 

 

There's room for both in the world. 

 

Frob already made the most important point. If you want kids to succeed, reward effort, not outcome. 


if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

#25 BHXSpecter   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1942

Posted 28 July 2014 - 11:50 PM


Some sports are not about competition, but improving your own ability. Surfing, snowboarding or scuba for instance. You can have competitions in them, but most people wouldn't say that was the primary point of them.
 
On the other hand, football, basketball, rugby, athletics, swimming, etc.... these are all about competition. They're not about promoting unity, they are literally about ranking individuals or teams based on performance. 

Let's be clear we are talking sports from elementary to high school and not professional sports (as was the focus of the article from the original post). School sports are held to a different standard than professional and do promote unity. I was basically paraphrasing why my hometown schools stopped doing trophies for sports achievements of individual players because the coaches were seeing the teams become volatile toward each other (the ones that were good were treating the lesser players like total crap). I would assume this is why others have gone to this everyone wins attitude in order to try and curb that sort of tension (which can lead to bullying). That leads me to my other assumption, so many kids have committed suicide due to being bullied and not knowing how to handle it or where to go for help that I wonder if that also didn't play a role in sports for schools adopting the 'everyone wins' attitude.


Edited by BHXSpecter, 29 July 2014 - 12:00 AM.


#26 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 28176

Posted 29 July 2014 - 11:27 AM

Sadly many community teams act like that.

 

It leads to signs like this one:

 

BrliLLBCEAAF9N_.jpg

 

Too many people forget these details.  First and foremost, they are kids playing a game.


Check out my book, Game Development with Unity, aimed at beginners who want to build fun games fast.

Also check out my personal website at bryanwagstaff.com, where I write about assorted stuff.


#27 ChaosEngine   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2954

Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:39 PM

 


Some sports are not about competition, but improving your own ability. Surfing, snowboarding or scuba for instance. You can have competitions in them, but most people wouldn't say that was the primary point of them.
 
On the other hand, football, basketball, rugby, athletics, swimming, etc.... these are all about competition. They're not about promoting unity, they are literally about ranking individuals or teams based on performance. 

Let's be clear we are talking sports from elementary to high school and not professional sports (as was the focus of the article from the original post). School sports are held to a different standard than professional and do promote unity. I was basically paraphrasing why my hometown schools stopped doing trophies for sports achievements of individual players because the coaches were seeing the teams become volatile toward each other (the ones that were good were treating the lesser players like total crap). I would assume this is why others have gone to this everyone wins attitude in order to try and curb that sort of tension (which can lead to bullying). That leads me to my other assumption, so many kids have committed suicide due to being bullied and not knowing how to handle it or where to go for help that I wonder if that also didn't play a role in sports for schools adopting the 'everyone wins' attitude.

If only there was some kind of happy medium between kids killing themselves over fear of failure and the pointless pandering that everyone wins.... rolleyes.gif

 


Too many people forget these details.  First and foremost, they are kids playing a game.

 

Yep. When I was younger, I was a swimming teacher and these days I teach Aikido. In both sets of circumstances, I've had "sideline coaches" screaming at the kids for not being perfect. It's a nightmare and completely counter productive.

 

But there's no harm in teaching kids that losing is part of the game and part of life.

 

Accepting defeat and coming back from it are great lessons to teach kids. There's no shame in losing, only in not trying.


if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

#28 SymLinked   Members   -  Reputation: 932

Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:05 AM

For example, as an avid World of Warcraft player Blizzard has made some questionable decisions in the games design within the last few years. Before in order to get the most powerful items in the game you had to devote some time to not only making friends, but working together as a team to defeat bosses. As I am sure you can imagine this would have required many hours a week in order to achieve. As time went on they decided the best option for their game was an experience where everyone was able to get the items while seeing the content the game had to offer. Gone was the sense of achievement with getting a cool new piece of gear for your character because a majority of the player base now an easy access to gear. It is so bad that you can just show up and stand there, do nothing, and still have the same chance of getting cool items as someone who actually contributes.

You play video games (at least the one you mentioned, when raiding) to have fun, and if only 5% of the players think it's fun and only the players without a job or social life can afford to get the best gear; then something has to be done if all players are to have fun. This has (IMO) nothing to do with real life or professional sports careers where succeeding is something else entirely than in a video game. WoW raiding has nothing to do with making a living.



#29 the incredible smoker   Members   -  Reputation: 426

Posted 31 July 2014 - 07:26 AM

You dont play for fun, but to win, winning is fun, so indirect i agree.

World of warcraft is something you cannot win or loose, so its not a game ?, it just takes your time with the virtual skills, like all RPG`s.

Wheres the skill ?


Edited by the incredible smoker, 31 July 2014 - 07:28 AM.

S T O P   C R I M E !

Visual Pro 2005 C++ DX9 Cubase VST 3.70  Working on : LevelContainer class & LevelEditor


#30 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 28176

Posted 31 July 2014 - 06:43 PM

You dont play for fun, but to win, winning is fun, so indirect i agree.

World of warcraft is something you cannot win or loose, so its not a game ?, it just takes your time with the virtual skills, like all RPG`s.

Wheres the skill ?

 

It depends on the game, but nearly everyone play for fun rather than playing to win.

 

As the topic started with childhood sports, go watch a child football(soccer) match. They aren't being competitive. You see two kids (one at either goal) and then a bundle of twenty little kids around the ball. They honestly don't care who won. They care that at halftime someone brought a big bucket of fruit and water, and as long as they weren't hurt they had a great time.

 

Look at sports like downhill skiing (easy for me since I live in the mountains). When you go up in the winter there are hundreds, probably thousands of people in the ski area. While skiing is a sport, they are not concerned in the least if they are better than their friends. They'll go up with their friends, pick some ski runs, and enjoy themselves. Again with kids, as long as they aren't injured and they get hot cocoa when they're done, they really don't care who had the fastest time. In some regards, the fastest time down the mountain is actually the real loser.

 

I've played and watched many games of pickup basketball during lunch.  It lasts an hour. Nobody keeps score.

 

We're not able to compete with classic Pele, or Messi, or Beckham, so why bother even kicking around a ball?

 

We're not able to play like Air Jordan, or have a bajillion assists and steals like John Stockton, or be like Kobe Bryant with his 30,000 career points, so why bother going to the ball court?

 

We're not able to play golf like Tiger Woods or Jack Nickolaus, so really why bother buying golf clubs?

 

 

 

 

Yes, tournaments are nice.  Yes, there is a place for competitions where teams and individuals are ranked and compete for the highest score.

 

But if that is all there were, if the only ones who are recognized for their efforts are the players who are inherently taller or inherently faster rather than those who put out an effort, then really there is no point to sports at all.  

 

Play for fun. Reward those who put in an effort. Especially when kids are involved. Reward the players for any effort, including just showing up. Reward the spectators for showing up. You can provide additional recognition to those who achieve the highest scores, but if that is the ONLY thing you recognize, you have probably missed the point.

 

The original article and original post were about child sports.  They are not about the Olympics, and even if they were, someone who can say "I am an Olympic athlete" by itself is enough for recognition even if they didn't get the gold medal.


Check out my book, Game Development with Unity, aimed at beginners who want to build fun games fast.

Also check out my personal website at bryanwagstaff.com, where I write about assorted stuff.





Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.



PARTNERS