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Internet Explorer 11 Debacle


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#41 phantom   Members   -  Reputation: 9172

Posted 31 July 2014 - 09:55 AM

I don't think you understand what 'anecdotal evidence' means...

Also you are trying to make points I'm not making or twisting/misunderstanding the ones I am.

As such I'm out.

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#42 superman3275   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2061

Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:12 AM

I don't think you understand what 'anecdotal evidence' means...

Also you are trying to make points I'm not making or twisting/misunderstanding the ones I am.

As such I'm out.

This should help you understand.


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#43 phantom   Members   -  Reputation: 9172

Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:42 AM

Ah, and now you are being condescending, nice nice...

And also; wrong.

IF I had said something along the lines of "I've heard of this one problems with open source software so all open source software must be bad" you would have a point.

I didn't.

I cited a time period "recent security problems" and gave specific examples as to what I was talking about.

I did not expand this to state 'all open source software is...' in relation to my claims, I restricted my point to a very specific subset of known problems which have been reported in the wild.

This is not an acecdote, this is a set of 3 cited examples of when open source software has caused large security problems.

The logic is easy to follow... or maybe I'm just that much smarter than you, I dunno... but the point is, nope, you are wrong and by trying to attack the message instead of the facts I pointed out you are showing that you have no point to be made, instead you are simply trying to discredit in order to make you own position felt safer.

So, as I said, I don't think you understand what anecdotal evidence is.

But thanks for playing.
Better luck next time.

#44 superman3275   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2061

Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:45 PM

This is not an acecdote, this is a set of 3 cited examples of when open source software has caused large security problems.

Here's the problem with your argument: Open source software didn't "cause" these security problems.

 

You cited three isolated examples of when there were bugs in open source software, and then implied that Open source software has more bugs and is worse than proprietary software. And you then went on to say that "Open source software ... caused large security problems", which is obviously untrue.


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#45 Nypyren   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7495

Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:11 PM

This is not an acecdote, this is a set of 3 cited examples of when open source software has caused large security problems.

Here's the problem with your argument: Open source software didn't "cause" these security problems.

You cited three isolated examples of when there were bugs in open source software, and then implied that Open source software has more bugs and is worse than proprietary software. And you then went on to say that "Open source software ... caused large security problems", which is obviously untrue.


The only person arguing about number of bugs between OSS and proprietary software is you. Not a SINGLE time has Phantom said anything about differences in bug counts in this entire thread. He's been pointing out, rightly so, that OSS has had some serious problems. He has been arguing that you shouldn't just blindly trust OSS. You're attempting to put words into his mouth by reading his responses and seeing whatever you want to see.

The articles that you have linked to are not peer-testable. If you can find ANYWHERE on Coverity's site where they list which proprietary projects they analyzed for their report, please link it, otherwise I am calling bullshit; It is blatantly clear that Coverity has a vested interest in promoting OSS for its own financial gain. "Studies" can be written to say whatever you want them to say, but if nobody else bothers checking to make sure you did the study correctly, nobody's going to call bullshit either. People who already agree with what the study says are unlikely to challenge it. Ironically this is the exact same behavior seen in OSS: The vast majority of OSS users just want to use the software, and aren't going to bother investigating the code in detail unless they personally encounter a bug. If there's something intentionally malicious in the code, you don't know what to look for.

Security researchers actively looking for exploits (not typical source-code-level flaws like what Coverity appears to advertise) seem to be the only ones bothering with deep investigations of software, but these people are smart enough to do it regardless of OSS/proprietary-ness; as long as the researcher has code or executable, they can begin investigating.

Edited by Nypyren, 31 July 2014 - 05:51 PM.


#46 phantom   Members   -  Reputation: 9172

Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:15 PM

Here's the problem with your argument: Open source software didn't "cause" these security problems.


Then how you would explain it then?
When 3 large security flaws are found in 3 pieces of open source software? (or 2 pieces of software if you want to bundle the two Android problems together).

#47 superman3275   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2061

Posted 31 July 2014 - 06:23 PM

 

Here's the problem with your argument: Open source software didn't "cause" these security problems.


Then how you would explain it then?
When 3 large security flaws are found in 3 pieces of open source software? (or 2 pieces of software if you want to bundle the two Android problems together).

 

It just means there were bugs found in code. That happens with all software.


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#48 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 31503

Posted 31 July 2014 - 06:25 PM

As the topic is well and truly derailed at this point...

 

In my view, the difference is that the library is already potentially well debugged, potentially reviewed by others.

 

 

Given the option between "use an existing widely used, widely trusted, publicly reviewed library for secure networking " or "build your own library for secure networking and hope for the best", I'll take the first.  When the new bugs are identified (they will continue forever) the fixes can be easily integrated into my code.

 

Sure, my system will suffer from the same homogeneous defects. But I'm okay with that because I won't be alone in the error. And because I know I saved a ton of time and effort and bugs by using the standard implementation. And because I know I can just drop in whatever fix the community creates with almost zero work.

 

When the first few systems came out saying "Our system is affected by heartbleed" a few people reacted negatively. When it was discovered the problem was universal, people really stopped caring. It is just a bug that affects everything before a certain date. There are a huge number of bugs like that.  

 

Open source solutions mean we can simply download the patch and recompile if we choose, rather than having bugs discovered in closed-source projects that are impossible to ever update.  You can patch and update your product in the open source world when defects are found. It may not always be easy, but it is possible.  In the closed source world you are entirely at the mercy of the vendor. You may know full well that a product has heartbleed in it, but since you don't have the source and the company discontinued it or went bankrupt, you are stuck with the bug.


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#49 Nypyren   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 7495

Posted 31 July 2014 - 07:41 PM

Open source solutions mean we can simply download the patch and recompile if we choose, rather than having bugs discovered in closed-source projects that are impossible to ever update.  You can patch and update your product in the open source world when defects are found. It may not always be easy, but it is possible.  In the closed source world you are entirely at the mercy of the vendor. You may know full well that a product has heartbleed in it, but since you don't have the source and the company discontinued it or went bankrupt, you are stuck with the bug.


I agree in that I wouldn't write something myself, though I see most of the same things happen regardless of OSS/Proprietary status.

Here's what happens in my experience:

- Closed source project stops being maintained. Users migrate to a different system or decide to "ride it into the ground". Insane users might reverse-engineer it (doubtful).

- Open source project stops being maintained. Hardcore users might fork the repo, but most users are not going to want to maintain something themselves. They're going to "ride it in" if bugs haven't yet been found, or migrate to a different system as well (or perhaps use the fork if they're lucky and someone wants to continue maintaining it). If a bug comes up, I sure wouldn't trust myself to go in and fix some open source code. Hell, I can't even read 99% of it. It would take less effort for me to migrate to another similar project than it would be to fix the bug myself.


It's nearly the same experience when each kind of project is being maintained: Both provide regular patches based on how critical the issue is and the skill/motivation level of the maintenance team.


You're always at the mercy of someone else, just at different levels of inconvenience.

Edited by Nypyren, 31 July 2014 - 07:55 PM.


#50 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3528

Posted 01 August 2014 - 02:25 PM

I will answer some of the posts here.  There are too many ideas which deserve a reply, but it's only practical to answer a few issues. If any of you don't get a direct response, then please understand that I barely have time to do any one thing with so much coming at me right now.

 

Windows installation is the software which ships with the Toshiba laptop from recovery, so it should be clean.

 

Two attempts at upgrading to IE 11 resulted in error 9C59.  I reinstalled once with the same problem and yesterday I reinstalled Win 7  and IE 11 is now accepted and installed and the systems also accept other updates.

 

My internet connect is high speed broadband and is supposed to be a clean connection, so corrupt files from downloading shouldn't be from bad internet service connection. Which update was corrupted is anybody's guess because the solutions offered did not detect any corrupt files anywhere.

 

A new problem appeared after the IE 11 was installed:  A window appeared which was sent by OS to Desktop about the 2010 C++ Runtime environment which stated that the application (the launching of IE 11 to desktop) "terminated the runtime for an unknown reason".   ohmy.png  Windows OS replied by checking for solutions but none was found.

 

After I uninstalled Bing Bar and Bing Desktop then that problem disappeared!   huh.png

 

Now everything works fine with uninstalled Bing Bar and Bing Desktop!   biggrin.png

 

....but the whole debacle is WEIRD!   Guys, it is as if some tech smart ass in NSA or Anonymous was toying with me!  What else could it be but some hacker in the network messing with me or something? 


Edited by 3Ddreamer, 01 August 2014 - 02:29 PM.

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#51 superman3275   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2061

Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:45 PM

I will answer some of the posts here.  There are too many ideas which deserve a reply, but it's only practical to answer a few issues. If any of you don't get a direct response, then please understand that I barely have time to do any one thing with so much coming at me right now.

 

Windows installation is the software which ships with the Toshiba laptop from recovery, so it should be clean.

 

Two attempts at upgrading to IE 11 resulted in error 9C59.  I reinstalled once with the same problem and yesterday I reinstalled Win 7  and IE 11 is now accepted and installed and the systems also accept other updates.

 

My internet connect is high speed broadband and is supposed to be a clean connection, so corrupt files from downloading shouldn't be from bad internet service connection. Which update was corrupted is anybody's guess because the solutions offered did not detect any corrupt files anywhere.

 

A new problem appeared after the IE 11 was installed:  A window appeared which was sent by OS to Desktop about the 2010 C++ Runtime environment which stated that the application (the launching of IE 11 to desktop) "terminated the runtime for an unknown reason".   ohmy.png  Windows OS replied by checking for solutions but none was found.

 

After I uninstalled Bing Bar and Bing Desktop then that problem disappeared!   huh.png

 

Now everything works fine with uninstalled Bing Bar and Bing Desktop!   biggrin.png

 

....but the whole debacle is WEIRD!   Guys, it is as if some tech smart ass in NSA or Anonymous was toying with me!  What else could it be but some hacker in the network messing with me or something? 

Sure.

 

That's totally what happened...

 

Are you trolling? People at the NSA could care less about screwing with you, same thing with Anonymous.


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#52 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 27132

Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:00 PM

After I uninstalled Bing Bar and Bing Desktop then that problem disappeared!   huh.png

Now everything works fine with uninstalled Bing Bar and Bing Desktop!   biggrin.png

 

....but the whole debacle is WEIRD!   Guys, it is as if some tech smart ass in NSA or Anonymous was toying with me!  What else could it be but some hacker in the network messing with me or something? 

 

Well, this is just a hunch, but it could be that the multi-millions of lines of code in thousands of different executables designed by thousands of different programmers over dozens of years running on hardware it wasn't tested on happened to encounter an unexpected incompatibility it wasn't designed to automatically detect. Layers and layers of software - problems happen.

 

If uninstalling Bing Bar and Bing Desktop stopped the problem, it's likely they were the source (or rather, the trigger) of that problem. Probably, they were trying to access some software component that wasn't installed or that wasn't compatible with them (wrong versions maybe), so they crashed, crashing the entire browser with it.

 

Googling 'Error 9C59' shows that some people think a certain version of .NET was causing the 9C59 problem.


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#53 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3528

Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:34 PM


Googling 'Error 9C59' shows that some people think a certain version of .NET was causing the 9C59 problem.

 

Software problems other than with IE 11 can make a 9C59 error, from what I've searched and found, such as with IE 10 ones with 9C59.  Incompatibility would likely be in the .NET framework if it exists.  Like you wrote in the previous post, their are layers upon layers of development and updates, too. Even one tiny issue such as end-user setting conflict would be easy to miss. I do make a lot of settings changes in IE. Just the right combination to cause a bug could be missed in Beta testing.

 

 

 


Are you trolling? People at the NSA could care less about screwing with you, same thing with Anonymous.

 

Some of the things which I write on the internet are extremely controversial (in other websites) and open to misinterpretation as being radical.  Some of the issues exactly touch on things that NSA or Anonymous would be interested in examining, but like I am saying I feel would be misinterpreted as a threat because I make many sarcastic words and deliberate point to annoy a few people with duplicity in posts. For example, my real belief that the EU needs to have a complete constitution replacement could be mistaken as advocating revolution in Europe.  ph34r.png   NSA and Anonymous would be interested in my thousands of posts on such things for obviously different reasons.  laugh.png   Likely they are not targeting me, however I am amused at the remote possibility. laugh.png

 

By the way, it is supposed to be couldn't care less - not "could care less".   ... just saying. happy.png


Edited by 3Ddreamer, 02 August 2014 - 01:37 PM.

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer


#54 mhagain   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 9957

Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:23 PM

A new problem appeared after the IE 11 was installed:  A window appeared which was sent by OS to Desktop about the 2010 C++ Runtime environment which stated that the application (the launching of IE 11 to desktop) "terminated the runtime for an unknown reason".   ohmy.png  Windows OS replied by checking for solutions but none was found.

 

After I uninstalled Bing Bar and Bing Desktop then that problem disappeared!   huh.png

 

Now everything works fine with uninstalled Bing Bar and Bing Desktop!   biggrin.png

 

....but the whole debacle is WEIRD!   Guys, it is as if some tech smart ass in NSA or Anonymous was toying with me!  What else could it be but some hacker in the network messing with me or something? 

 

Bing Bar and Bing Desktop aren't included in a clean Windows 7 installation, so it's most likely that the Toshiba recovery media brought the vendor's pre-installed crapware along for the ride.  A proper clean installation is very lean indeed: just the OS and drivers.  So it's a case of "vendor crapware debacle", not "IE11 debacle", although it's valid to say that Microsoft shouldn't have let this happen.

 

As an IT consultant you should have access to install media via MSDN or TechNet which you could have used to cross-check with.  I don't work much with OEM versions of Windows, but IIRC you should then be able to switch the product key on an MSDN version to your OEM key (assuming you use the same edition) via the System control panel and remain compliant for licensing purposes.


It appears that the gentleman thought C++ was extremely difficult and he was overjoyed that the machine was absorbing it; he understood that good C++ is difficult but the best C++ is well-nigh unintelligible.


#55 3Ddreamer   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3528

Posted 04 August 2014 - 01:00 PM

Yeah, I just didn't have time to do anything more than I did.  I don't have time to do a lot of things lately. wacko.png

 

There are some Toshiba updates that had to be applied. Perhaps they should be installed at a certain time among the Windows updates, such as right after IE 11, but I doubt that this would have anything to do with it. 

 

For me it is an IE 11 debacle in a general sense, so the name stays.

 

By the way, guys, I visited a college today and found the network was hacked and reported it.  It's amazing that I was the first to report it.   What a coincidence with all the stuff that I have had to overcome with my computer lately!


Edited by 3Ddreamer, 04 August 2014 - 01:02 PM.

Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software.  The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game.  Completing projects is the last but finest order.

 

by Clinton, 3Ddreamer





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