To use mana or not? (that is the question)

Started by
24 comments, last by cyberpunkdreams 8 years, 8 months ago


You have a party of up to (in the end) 6 characters, which can be placed in front or back row. You gear up in town and set out to clear dungeons. If you give up and go back to town to heal and rest (to save characters close to death), the dungeon is reset.

I would like to ask why do YOU want a player to go back to town? If he has good time fighting monsters then why break the flow forcing him to go back.?

As for the magic I would go for a mix of cooldowns and limited usage, but both resetting after fight rather than in town. The reason for it that is that player shouldn't feel forced to not use their powerful abilities in case he may need them "later", then die constantly without ever using them.

That way you can still limit usage of powerful spells and let him decide when to visit town. Also if you make the town worthwhile he will visit it anyway.

Advertisement


Just to point out, i never said vanician magic (which seems to be you prepare and choose spells beforehand). I might just limit the number of uses per dungeon for some spells/skills.

For myself, I'm not suggesting Vancian magic, nor saying that it was one of the options that you listed. Rather, I think that limiting spells and skills might incur one of the problems that can come with Vancian magic: the "Too Awesome To Use" issue that I mentioned previously: The player, knowing that they'll lose a given spell for the rest of the dungeon if they use it, might end up never using it at all; conversely, the might use it and then end up getting killed by its lack in a fight against a foe that they didn't know that they'd be fighting. (I don't mean to suggest that those are the only two options--I'm just listing them as cases that concern me.)

I like Deflinek's suggestion above: Limit spells for a given fight (calling thus for interesting decisions on the player's part), but reset those limits after each fight (allowing players to feel that they can use their spells and skills in combat).

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

My Twitter Account: @EbornIan


The problem with mana only is that it might end up using some classes just for one thing, for example if a cleric can heal and do some damage skills (which both cost mana) you might end up ONLY using the heal and not wanting to "waste" mana on a more diverse set of skills.

So you're going to introduce a character who is specialized in healing, make his healing skills way more powerfull then his other abilities,

then complain that players use his best skill instead of randomly choosing a skill ...

Yes. If a single skill is always the best option, then players aren't really making a choice. They're simply selecting the obvious option from the list every time over and over again until they get victory. That's not much of a game.

Good game design provides interesting challenging choices, where you try to figure out which ability is the best for that moment, and have multiple factors to consider. This can still be done with mana and a diverse set of skills, but you do take the risk of making those extra skills pointless if one skill is clearly better than the rest.

Radiant Verge is a Turn-Based Tactical RPG where your movement determines which abilities you can use.

Powerneg why so patronising?

As you see in the long thread its not THAT simple of a question and the point of the thread is to clearify pros and cons with different systems.

Yes the way im aiming to pace my game needs persisting effects to be limited, mainly to avoid players stalling for time i easy fights to spam heals (as you could do in "darkest dungeon"). Such a system works of course, but its not very fun to play (and in very hard games you are almost forced to use exploits like that).

Well, it seemed like you were making up arguments along the way, showing your preferences,

Having preferences is off course good as you're the one who 's actually going to make the game, but it doesn't help the discussion,

because most issues can be solved using proper finetuning/balancing.

Instead, you could list your preferences, like: do you want each spell to be "mandatory" used?

do you want healing to be nerfed/weak? How many spells/abilities are you aiming for ?

Yes the way im aiming to pace my game needs persisting effects to be limited, mainly to avoid players stalling for time i easy fights to spam heals (as you could do in "darkest dungeon"). Such a system works of course, but its not very fun to play (and in very hard games you are almost forced to use exploits like that).

How about full health-regeneration between combats ?

It gives you the opportunity to realy restrict the use of healing-spells without the player needing to go back to town every three battles.

It also makes battles seperate from each other, instead of one big battle(with some choice of opponents i suppose)

One thing to keep in mind, btw, it may sound fun for you from a design-perspective that the player needs to use every spell,

but from the player's perspective, someone will have made some(all?) of the choices for him.

Yes. If a single skill is always the best option, then players aren't really making a choice. They're simply selecting the obvious option from the list every time over and over again until they get victory. That's not much of a game.

Make an improved heal-spell with 50% more healing and 100% more mana-cost.

Add the cost-less basic attack.

Now it's situational which spell is best.


The problem with mana only is that it might end up using some classes just for one thing, for example if a cleric can heal and do some damage skills (which both cost mana) you might end up ONLY using the heal and not wanting to "waste" mana on a more diverse set of skills. This is mainly a problem with skills that grants persisting effects (such as healing):
Damage skills: helps the current fight
Healing: helps also in all following fights (so it can not be limitless)

Maybe scale back the healing ability a bit so that the player finds the choice between damage and healing to be more equal?

Yes. If a single skill is always the best option, then players aren't really making a choice. They're simply selecting the obvious option from the list every time over and over again until they get victory. That's not much of a game.

Make an improved heal-spell with 50% more healing and 100% more mana-cost.

Add the cost-less basic attack.

Now it's situational which spell is best.

Right. Like I said, it can still be done with mana, and that's one way to do it. First, you need to identify potential problems, like making one skill way too powerful to the point that players choose it every time, like you described earlier. If you analyze the problem, you can come up with solutions. The solution could be a balance to individual abilities to work well with mana, or an adjustment to the magic system so it doesn't use mana at all. Whichever you choose, it helps to examine the potential problems of the system.

Radiant Verge is a Turn-Based Tactical RPG where your movement determines which abilities you can use.

Why would hard limits be frustrating? The basic attack would be infinite obviously.

Well, it depends on the design of the game, of course, so I'm sure it would be possible to get it to work smoothly. But one problem I first thought of is that hard limits don't reflect the size of the dungeon. Surely some are going to be (much) bigger than others?

But having said that, sure, I guess there's no problem with any system if it's designed right. I'd probably only use one limiting factor for a given class of ability though. My only real experience with playing this kind of thing is XCOM: Long War, where special abilities and psychic powers have cool downs, and special equipment (arc throwers, grenade launchers, etc) don't have a cool down but do have a hard limit.

This topic is closed to new replies.

Advertisement