[java] XP (anti - JAVA)
Author
I usually side with microsoft but after reading this article I really cant say how I feel. I guess I never really viewed Microsoft as a company that wasnt really allowing me to have a choice.
I guess I have been so use to developing on their platforms and using all their software I just keep going through the motions.
After I started learning JAVA and really begin to like it and all the benefits it provides I begin to view certian things with from a different perspective..
Bascially I just want to know what your thoughts are on this article...I know its a bit late, but I didnt find anything in here on it.
http://java.sun.com/features/2001/08/srcrgreen.html
Damn, In the end do you really have a choice?
Morpheus
Edited by - a_insomniac on November 24, 2001 2:15:03 AM
It''s not quite as simple as Sun makes it sound ... under the terms of the settlement, Microsoft would have _only_ been allowed to distribute the 1.1.4 VM, and they wouldn''t have been allowed even to fix bugs without Sun''s permission.
6. Limited Licenses. As limited herein, Sun grants to Microsoft:
a. A limited license under Sun''s Intellectual Property Rights, during the period ending January 2, 2008, to continue to distribute without modification in currently shipping commercial products, all as listed on Exhibit D attached, the JDK 1.1.4-level binary implementations identified in Exhibit E attached, but only insofar as such binary implementations do not alter or add in any way to the functionality and features of the JDK 1.1.4-level binary implementation that was present in the Windows 2000 First Commercial Release
So Microsoft had a choice ... distribute an obselete VM, or not distribute one at all. What would you do? By not including a Java VM in XP, Microsoft can make a new version available to those who want it. The first time you hit a Java-enabled site, a Window will pop up asking you if you want to download Java. Hit yes, wait a few minutes, and your system has a shiny new 1.3 VM.
Is it a big deal? Perhaps. Is it a sneaky, underhanded tactic to eliminate Java off the face of the earth? Perhaps. But the way I see it, Java is, and always was, available to those who want or need it.
6. Limited Licenses. As limited herein, Sun grants to Microsoft:
a. A limited license under Sun''s Intellectual Property Rights, during the period ending January 2, 2008, to continue to distribute without modification in currently shipping commercial products, all as listed on Exhibit D attached, the JDK 1.1.4-level binary implementations identified in Exhibit E attached, but only insofar as such binary implementations do not alter or add in any way to the functionality and features of the JDK 1.1.4-level binary implementation that was present in the Windows 2000 First Commercial Release
So Microsoft had a choice ... distribute an obselete VM, or not distribute one at all. What would you do? By not including a Java VM in XP, Microsoft can make a new version available to those who want it. The first time you hit a Java-enabled site, a Window will pop up asking you if you want to download Java. Hit yes, wait a few minutes, and your system has a shiny new 1.3 VM.
Is it a big deal? Perhaps. Is it a sneaky, underhanded tactic to eliminate Java off the face of the earth? Perhaps. But the way I see it, Java is, and always was, available to those who want or need it.
Looks like WindowsXP did something right for once...
I agree that Java really shouldn''t be supported. All it really is is a distraction to people trying to learn what real programming is. If you learn Java and want to get into the game development bussiness your going to have to learn C++ anyway.
Artificial intelligence is the devil... resist intelligent NPC''s
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you..."~Friedrich Nietzsche
I agree that Java really shouldn''t be supported. All it really is is a distraction to people trying to learn what real programming is. If you learn Java and want to get into the game development bussiness your going to have to learn C++ anyway.
Artificial intelligence is the devil... resist intelligent NPC''s
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you..."~Friedrich Nietzsche
quote:Original post by Drizzt DoUrden
I agree that Java really shouldn''t be supported. All it really is is a distraction to people trying to learn what real programming is. If you learn Java and want to get into the game development bussiness your going to have to learn C++ anyway.
Now that''s flame bait. You don''t seem to know that game development is only a small portion of programming. Applications, database, and server side programming are all large fields. Java happens to take up a huge portion of the server side field. So, if you want to limit your prospects as a programmer, have fun. I''d rather be employeed.
I''m not a huge fan of Java, but it has its place and it fills it well. The author of the article is biased, but I still agree with 90% of the things he says.
[Resist Windows XP''s Invasive Production Activation Technology!]
You are correct. In fact, Java can be used in Flash which I am thankful for.
But what I mean is:
Go to BioWare and Blizzards site. Nowhere there does it ask for skills in Java at all. Maybe Networking, but usually by that it means DPlay or WinSoc.
It can be helpful in quite a few situations, but there is nothing in Java that something else can''t do faster/better. At least not that I know of.
Artificial intelligence is the devil... resist intelligent NPC''s
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you..."~Friedrich Nietzsche
But what I mean is:
Go to BioWare and Blizzards site. Nowhere there does it ask for skills in Java at all. Maybe Networking, but usually by that it means DPlay or WinSoc.
It can be helpful in quite a few situations, but there is nothing in Java that something else can''t do faster/better. At least not that I know of.
Artificial intelligence is the devil... resist intelligent NPC''s
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you..."~Friedrich Nietzsche
For those who complain about microsoft and their Java VM, install the Sun VM, go to www.cfxweb.net and download some java demos. See how choppy it is. Now install the MS VM and try the same demos again. See how smoooooth. i normally don''t like MS products too much just because i get disappointed in their functionality, however i think MS finally got it at least semi-right with XP.
I agree.. Why would you want an old version of the JVM in XP? You would just have to download the new version anyway... That article reminded me of those of you that use linux just so you can bash windows....
The way I see it, windows does everything that you would want a OS to do and for the most part windows is pretty stable... I know, I know now your going to tell me that Linux is far more stable then windows.. well I''d say youtr probably correct, however how hard is it to setup linux? okay its getting easier but only if you have certian types of components. Secondly I would just love to see what would happen to linux if everyone used it and everyone developed for it... see thats where alot of the problems lie, when you let anyone develop for a OS someone is going to send out something that can hurt it...
anyways comment as you wish, but I feel that Windows is the way to go, and as for this getting rid of Java... well I kind it funny actually everyone gets upset when Microsoft doesn''t support their product .. hahahaha thats funny, just support your own damn product and shut up.. Microsoft doesn''t have to do anything it doesn''t want too, and its not exactly writing in code that says you can''t run Java its just not making it super easy
The way I see it, windows does everything that you would want a OS to do and for the most part windows is pretty stable... I know, I know now your going to tell me that Linux is far more stable then windows.. well I''d say youtr probably correct, however how hard is it to setup linux? okay its getting easier but only if you have certian types of components. Secondly I would just love to see what would happen to linux if everyone used it and everyone developed for it... see thats where alot of the problems lie, when you let anyone develop for a OS someone is going to send out something that can hurt it...
anyways comment as you wish, but I feel that Windows is the way to go, and as for this getting rid of Java... well I kind it funny actually everyone gets upset when Microsoft doesn''t support their product .. hahahaha thats funny, just support your own damn product and shut up.. Microsoft doesn''t have to do anything it doesn''t want too, and its not exactly writing in code that says you can''t run Java its just not making it super easy
In case you didn''t notice all the cfx demos are designed for MS''s jvm. They could run just as smooth on a jdk1.3/1.4 machine if it were so designed, and guess what, they wouldn''t run at all on the MS machine. Plus you would get to use all the advances in the api that have occured in the last 5 years. I personally don''t care whether MS includes it or not since the jre is a fairly small dl even on a 56k. I am curious to see if MS will break support for it again at the next bugfix, I mean os release.
The fanatic is incorruptible: if he kills for an idea, he can just as well get himself killed for one; in either case, tyrant or martyr, he is a monster.
--EM Cioran
Opere Citato
The fanatic is incorruptible: if he kills for an idea, he can just as well get himself killed for one; in either case, tyrant or martyr, he is a monster.
--EM Cioran
Opere Citato
Where to begin in such an opinionated posted.. Here goes.
Drizzt.. I think if you looked at java and games that have been developed with java you would actually be suprised.. there is a thread here that goes into it but I don''t feel like looking it up. Yes most games are programmed with C++. That doesn''t mean that every other language out there is not a REAL programming language.. Every language has there strong points, C++ and C is the fact that it can compile down to a low level binary which can be almost directly interpretted from the machine. Java''s strong point is it''s flexability and it''s OO style. You can not in reality develop a somewhat complex program in Java without using an OO style.. not so with C, or C++ Just look at a lot of bits of code on the net and you see all of that sloppy shit. Java is a scripted language designed to run in a virtual machine.. By doing such it has numerous benifits.. don''t think a virtual machine can ever be fast enough to make a REAL game? Look at Quake 3, gee that seems to be running a virtual machine, and is helluva fast as far as it''s target machine is concerned.. Albeit the VM is not java I think Camarack got the idea from somewhere... And if you look around you will see there are many games that use java for scripting? If java isn''t a real programming language and is so useless that people shouldn''t bother using it why do people use it in making their games? I could list a hundred reasons, but look em up yourself maybe you could learn something.
My point is this, just because you don''t like, or want to be bothered with a language doesn''t mean they are useless.
And as far as getting a job in the games industry, I am no expert but I AM a software developer and have been so for many years and the best thing you can have on a resume is DIVERSITY it proves flexibily and lots of problem solving skill. More often than not you are going to wind up have to make a distributed solution in the world of programming.
Meaning this: Making the best use of the components you have available to get the job done to the best of your ability in the shortest amount of time.
A solution to a problem could consist of a combination of VB, Java, ASP, and C++ for one project. All working together to accomplish the same goal, which of these langauges are the best? Depends on what you want to do...
Anyway the is enough of my rant. Java IS a programming language and having it within your tool belt only makes you look that much better to an employer.
Win XP: pile of shit I will not buy something that is going to start forcing you to rent your software monthly. Or actively keep track of your profile. For what ever reason(not enough space to expound on tyhat ^_^) microsoft is a big security leak, in all aspects. Do you really want something that is going to track all of your information and be your digital identity on the internet, in the hands of people like microsoft corp? I am referring to the .NET that is giong to be the foundation of XP. It is a very scarey concept that all of your info will be stored by microsoft, so they can *make things easier* for the home user. With some many people writing hacks and worms and backdoors for all of M$ os''s Why would you want any critical info about yourself being stored locally or remotely with microsoft? Microsoft has become to intrusive in their licensing agreements, and they are quite frankly too big a piece of the poe for anyone to do anything about it but fart in the wind.
my $0.02
War doesn''t determine who is right, war determines who is left.
Drizzt.. I think if you looked at java and games that have been developed with java you would actually be suprised.. there is a thread here that goes into it but I don''t feel like looking it up. Yes most games are programmed with C++. That doesn''t mean that every other language out there is not a REAL programming language.. Every language has there strong points, C++ and C is the fact that it can compile down to a low level binary which can be almost directly interpretted from the machine. Java''s strong point is it''s flexability and it''s OO style. You can not in reality develop a somewhat complex program in Java without using an OO style.. not so with C, or C++ Just look at a lot of bits of code on the net and you see all of that sloppy shit. Java is a scripted language designed to run in a virtual machine.. By doing such it has numerous benifits.. don''t think a virtual machine can ever be fast enough to make a REAL game? Look at Quake 3, gee that seems to be running a virtual machine, and is helluva fast as far as it''s target machine is concerned.. Albeit the VM is not java I think Camarack got the idea from somewhere... And if you look around you will see there are many games that use java for scripting? If java isn''t a real programming language and is so useless that people shouldn''t bother using it why do people use it in making their games? I could list a hundred reasons, but look em up yourself maybe you could learn something.
My point is this, just because you don''t like, or want to be bothered with a language doesn''t mean they are useless.
And as far as getting a job in the games industry, I am no expert but I AM a software developer and have been so for many years and the best thing you can have on a resume is DIVERSITY it proves flexibily and lots of problem solving skill. More often than not you are going to wind up have to make a distributed solution in the world of programming.
Meaning this: Making the best use of the components you have available to get the job done to the best of your ability in the shortest amount of time.
A solution to a problem could consist of a combination of VB, Java, ASP, and C++ for one project. All working together to accomplish the same goal, which of these langauges are the best? Depends on what you want to do...
Anyway the is enough of my rant. Java IS a programming language and having it within your tool belt only makes you look that much better to an employer.
Win XP: pile of shit I will not buy something that is going to start forcing you to rent your software monthly. Or actively keep track of your profile. For what ever reason(not enough space to expound on tyhat ^_^) microsoft is a big security leak, in all aspects. Do you really want something that is going to track all of your information and be your digital identity on the internet, in the hands of people like microsoft corp? I am referring to the .NET that is giong to be the foundation of XP. It is a very scarey concept that all of your info will be stored by microsoft, so they can *make things easier* for the home user. With some many people writing hacks and worms and backdoors for all of M$ os''s Why would you want any critical info about yourself being stored locally or remotely with microsoft? Microsoft has become to intrusive in their licensing agreements, and they are quite frankly too big a piece of the poe for anyone to do anything about it but fart in the wind.
my $0.02
War doesn''t determine who is right, war determines who is left.
Drizzt >> I agree that Java really shouldn''t be supported. All it really is is a distraction to people trying to learn what real programming is. >>
What is ''real programming'' by your definition? Does it have to do with performance? Well, then anything except Assembly, C and maybe Fortran (for numerical computations) will do (one could possibly include C++ in that too, but then Java would have to be included as well since there are several examples of Java beating the performance of C++, especially in applications that require heap allocation).
Does it have to do with code clarity, object-oriented conceptual modeling and design of applications, design patterns, programmer productivity? Well, then clearly Java is the language of choice.
Heck, even Microsoft are admitting that clean and efficient languages like Java is the way to go with their C# Java-wannabe effort. It''s also interesting to see what''s happening to Java and C++ in the marketplace:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2804967,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnews01
Then again, I guess your comments show that you are truly a game programmer since they resemble those that were written by game programmers about Assembly and C/C++ before John Carmack made the assembly-purists look stupid through the use of high level languages in his early groundbreaking first-person shooters.
Wrathnut >> Java is a scripted language designed to run in a virtual machine.. >>
I don''t know what you mean when you claim that Java is ''scripted''. It is not interpreted if that''s what you mean, since all modern JVMs feature just-in-time compilers that turn the platform independent bytecode into native machine language before (and during) execution. Using the word ''scripted'' about Java simply does not make sense and just adds to the confusion with java-script, a wholly different truly interpreted script language with an unfortunate naming.
Henry
What is ''real programming'' by your definition? Does it have to do with performance? Well, then anything except Assembly, C and maybe Fortran (for numerical computations) will do (one could possibly include C++ in that too, but then Java would have to be included as well since there are several examples of Java beating the performance of C++, especially in applications that require heap allocation).
Does it have to do with code clarity, object-oriented conceptual modeling and design of applications, design patterns, programmer productivity? Well, then clearly Java is the language of choice.
Heck, even Microsoft are admitting that clean and efficient languages like Java is the way to go with their C# Java-wannabe effort. It''s also interesting to see what''s happening to Java and C++ in the marketplace:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2804967,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnews01
Then again, I guess your comments show that you are truly a game programmer since they resemble those that were written by game programmers about Assembly and C/C++ before John Carmack made the assembly-purists look stupid through the use of high level languages in his early groundbreaking first-person shooters.
Wrathnut >> Java is a scripted language designed to run in a virtual machine.. >>
I don''t know what you mean when you claim that Java is ''scripted''. It is not interpreted if that''s what you mean, since all modern JVMs feature just-in-time compilers that turn the platform independent bytecode into native machine language before (and during) execution. Using the word ''scripted'' about Java simply does not make sense and just adds to the confusion with java-script, a wholly different truly interpreted script language with an unfortunate naming.
Henry
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