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RPG Games For Girls!!!


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#41 krez   Members   -  Reputation: 441

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 05:36 AM

quote:
Original post by digitaldirt
btw: "Chick-Flick" is just another ignorant guy term. Say a new movie is a love story, like "Serendipity"... oh no... another chick flick. Its not marketed as a chick flick. thats kinda just a slang term that has appeared by beer drinkin, football watching, guys... (I must point, those 2 examples are also stereotypes..)

ignorant guy term? my sisters, mother, girlfriend, and several female friends all use the term (like when i ask how some movie was, they tell me it was a chick-flick, and i know not to bother renting it). it is just a fact of life that some movies appeal only to women (not all women, but enough) and guys who are about to get some action because they took their girlfriend with them and are (pretending to be?) sensitive. so, i think it is ignorant to discredit a perfectly valid term just because you don''t like it. what do you call those types of movies?
quote:
Space Quest and Kings Quest were even fun and they were both on the opposite ends of the RPG genre. excellent games though.

they''re adventure games, not RPGs... but yes, those were great games (it sucks because i own them all, but on 5-1/4" diskettes so i can''t install them)...
on a separate note, why do people like to throw around the phrase "so-and-so genre of games are DEAD"? i can see if you mean "commercially unviable", but then you should say it that way. not everyone loves quake or the newest RTS... and no matter how excited about it you are, there are still other people out there that would rather play pong or metroid or space quest.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

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#42 digitaldirt   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 05:42 AM

Hehe. Yes, It is so cliche now that it has become a ''valid'' term. Though, the real term would be whatever movie genre it is in. for instance, "Serendipity", a chick flick? no... A Comedy/Love Story.

and why do you know not to rent a film just becuase it is a chick flick? hehe.

anyway, just keeping it real.

you have some valid points. Adventure games rock! I have not played Grim Fandango. but I did play the demo to another LucasArts game.... The Dig... which was truely a fun game. The music, was cool too.

#43 krez   Members   -  Reputation: 441

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 07:04 AM

quote:
Original post by digitaldirt
Hehe. Yes, It is so cliche now that it has become a ''valid'' term. Though, the real term would be whatever movie genre it is in. for instance, "Serendipity", a chick flick? no... A Comedy/Love Story.

"chick-flick-ness" is a quality that defies the bounds of movie genre... not all comedy/love stories are chick flicks, and some other movies (in genres you would not expect to find a chick flick in) are chick flicks (i can''t think of any examples because those that i saw i forgot about quickly)...
quote:
and why do you know not to rent a film just becuase it is a chick flick? hehe.

because i would rather spend those $3 on a pack of cigarettes and smoke them outside in the freezing cold for the two hours
quote:
Adventure games rock! I have not played Grim Fandango. but I did play the demo to another LucasArts game.... The Dig... which was truely a fun game. The music, was cool too.

yah i remember the dig... that was great...


--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

#44 sunandshadow   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4143

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 10:13 AM

Honestly, there are low-tech games that would be very popular among girls - take Harvest Moon, let the animals be bred for color variation like Creatures, cross it with a Ren''ai game, people it with bishounen, give the main character a tamagotchi-like pet, voila, instant marketing success. Make it cheaply, sell it cheaply, market it as simple, fun and encourage girls to compete with each other to see how well they could do in the game. It would be fairly easy to program and runs on even old PCs. Gotta get decent artists though...

#45 MSW   Members   -  Reputation: 151

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 12:28 PM

sunandshadow is right...low tech games can really rock...Deer Hunter is a perfect example...it targeted a largely ignored market and succeded very well (no matter what you think of the game...it sold lots of copies)...something like 6 years ago Pokemon first appeared on the gameboy and launched a phenominom...heck, Tetris (so low tech even programing newbies can program a clone of it) was a big hit.

Digitaldirt - again, what age range were the females in your group? What video game playing experience have they had?.....also - I never said my popstar parody RPG was the answer...I only said it may be unusual enough to intrest females...and no matter how cliched you may think it is...when was the last time you saw such a RPG?

Most women I know are between about 22 and 56 years old...Of those interested in playing games...they want something that is easy to learn, can be played in short time frames, simple and direct control systems, and features some aspect that directly relates to them personaly or through personal experiences...aggressive, violent, and verbaly offenssive games are not what they are looking for...but they do want adult content games (if you are over 18 and believe "adult content" must alway include graphic violence, extensive swearing, and nudity...well you are clearly in a state of arrested adulensence)...of the 130 or so 22-56 year old women I know...around 70% of those who would be willing to purchase such a game aimed at females are over 35 (90% of these women have played both Solitare and Myst...with about 40% haveing played the Sims...only about 8% show any intrest at all in Ultima Online))...their biggest beef with games today are that they are clearly aimed at boys and so players are forced to "play like boys" (notice...boys...not men).
Most women I know under about 40 have little intrest in playing games due not just to family constrants on thier time...but also because they use computer all day long at work and have no desire to do so in thier off hours.

but as they say...I can only listen with guy ears....



#46 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 12:38 PM

From a female’s point of view, a lot of what has been written is very sexist. When I play a game it is not because it has pink, ponies, nurturing characters and babies in it.

It is because something has caught my eye, whither it be graphics, pre/reviews, theme, or story line. To say the girls aren''t able to play games that aren''t specifically created for us as good as males, due to psychological differences perpetuates the myth that girls always crave the sensitive non-violent path of pacifism. I mean yes there are some psychological differences but there is a danger in going into major stereotyping. We like to shoot things too.

One reason I would guess that many females don''t play games, is not because we don''t have interest, time or reflexes (females have just as good reaction time as men, sometimes better ), but more likely that it is not advertised enough to us, or rather improperly advertised. You wouldn''t necessarily need a female character to draw a female audience, but you do need something more then just guns, tanks, and boobs over and over again. Its the initial imagery. Take for instance magazines, or commercials for computer or video games, typically they feature a bimbo on the front with guns, tight outfit ect. That’s if, there is a female figure on the cover at all. Many games with female characters look like the girls are from porno''s, lol. This is bound right off the bat, to alienate at least some of us or bring into mind that computer games are for men''s enjoyment. Just an initial observation
That is not to say we won''t play these games, but maybe more to the point that we bore of seeing the same type of game & image over and over again. Or that a potential player wont give the game a second thought because of first impression. I''ve noticed one game come out, then someone else will create a similar one, and then a third company will make another...the only variation being graphics or slight twists. The thrill of seeing big jugs doesn''t translate to girls like it does to guys.
You wont see adds like that in magazines targeting a girl audience. If you pick up a magazine that’s aimed towards girls, like say for instance your sisters copy of Sassy, you won''t see any adds for games or computer junk inside besides a copy of Cosmopolitan Make Over. That’s it. Now I suspect that if casually Game Advertisements were thrown into these magazines, that were pleasing or at least presented in a less male-esque manner, ie.boobie free or boobie controlled (without changing the game itself, just the presentation or packaging if you prefer) you might see a peek in female interest.

I don''t honestly believe that girls won''t play games which feature a male character, simply because its male, but more likely because of the perception that they won''t have any interest in playing. Or the game is just crap or because they just don’t know about the games existance. Don''t make a game just for girls, or pandering to us, make one that is enjoyable to everyone, like a good movie or book. I''d also bet why girls play solitaire, sims, and puzzles is because they can be drawn into them easier, without being confronted by a dude firing guns at Amazon space chicks in leather thongs, with no plot to back it up.

I used to go over to my cousins house who was practically glued to his Nintendo playing fighting games, and while he''d ask if I wanted to take up the second controller, he''d automatically pick Mario cart racing or something with the least violence for us to play, unless I insisted on trying out something like Mortal Kombat. And I still remember his little cry of surprise when yes, I was in fact able to do a combo. *gasp* My uncle introduced me to adventure games, and since then I''ve gone on to blowing things up gleefully, puzzles, sims, ect. If it weren''t for him, I doubt I would have played anything because I wasn''t aware of games beyond games like FreeCell, and Solitares existence. Because I wasn''t made aware of it.

But I bet the best way to draw a wider audience is to write a solid, imaginative story. If you can do that, with a wide variety of even NCP''s who don''t pandered to over done stereotypes, it''ll get played by both boys and girls.
(and yes I was being sexist myself )
The ideal character would be some sort of genderless creature, but hey as a last resort why not put hello kitty on duke nuke''ems guns and a nice handbag.


#47 Mooglez   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 02:22 PM

quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
From a female’s point of view, a lot of what has been written is very sexist...

...I used to go over to my cousins house who was practically glued to his Nintendo playing fighting games, and while he''d ask if I wanted to take up the second controller, he''d automatically pick Mario cart racing or something with the least violence for us to play, unless I insisted on trying out something like Mortal Kombat. And I still remember his little cry of surprise when yes, I was in fact able to do a combo...

...The ideal character would be some sort of genderless creature, but hey as a last resort why not put hello kitty on duke nuke''ems guns and a nice handbag.


Whoever posted this email me please. I would really appreciated if you can discuss some in-depth design from the female perspective with me; particularly on the 2d fighting related things. I am working on designing the battle interface for a game with a few people on here. But unfortunately they don''t have a clue... *ducks under the incoming fry pan* ...a few clues when it comes to fighting games. ^_^ So email me please.

mooglez@hotmail.com

#48 SpittingTrashcan   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 02:54 PM

To all,

Okay, some correction on my part is in order. I made an unwise statement in a previous post that could be read to say that FPSes, fighting games, and platformers are not played by girls because they lack the twitch reflexes necessary to play them. I''ve been called on the carpet numerous times by various posters who noted, correctly, that this is BS. What I should have said, and what someone already said for me, is that these games require not only a good natural reaction time but reaction skills learned by playing the game. Thus, as was noted, these are not games in which a beginner can play well right off the bat, so a person (boy or girl) who has just picked up the game will probably do rather poorly and quit in disgust.

Lord knows there are many, many female people who flat out beat me in every physical and mental contest. At the very least, I wouldn''t consider myself better than anyone based solely on their gender. I''m sorry I sounded like a jerk, and I hope this clarifies things.

On a related note, it seems the basic problem may not be that nobody is making games for girls, but rather that nobody is making games for non-gamers, and most gamers are currently boys. Thus in order to play current games one must have played previous games, and more boys played previous games, so they have a head start in the market now. I''d say one way to bring girls into gaming is to create a whole new genre of game where previous experience with other games helps you not at all, and market it in a non-gender-specific way. Then guys and girls will start out on a level playing field. Just an opinion folks.

---------------------------------------------------
-SpittingTrashcan

You can''t have "civilization" without "civil".

#49 Andrew Nguyen   Members   -  Reputation: 150

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 03:37 PM

Hey,why dont you do it yourselves?

(Im a boy as from my name)

Yes, I said it, why the hell do you ask us? I live by the motto, ''If no one else is doing it, but you need it, do it yourselves.'' Therefore, do it yourself, I mean this IS gamedev.net after all!

Yes, it''s true,
there should be
a Java-Python-C++ language called Japyc
or (Jah-PIC)

#50 Impossible   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 04:02 PM

A lot of what I''m reading is a misconception or borderline sexist. Women play tons of games, especially MMORPGs. Also, do you think the Sims is selling so well because hardcore game players are buying it? Even in the most hardcore FPSes, you''ll see women players. Creating fluffy pink games is not what women want (as far as I know). It seems like women like games with social aspects and characters they can relate to or get attached to (things that male game players like a lot also.) Don''t think that women are anti-violence, or even necessarily strongly against sex. I know tons of girls that play games, even though they may not be as hardcore as a lot of the male players I know are.

#51 Diodor   Members   -  Reputation: 517

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 06:05 PM

I think we''re looking at this problem from the wrong point of view. Turning the mass of girls from casual players to buyers is not going to happen easy (before the first soap like Sims game - with story twists and all - try watching some soap operas - I''d swear they make them stories with a simple algorithm hint, hint). What will happen is that in each (good) game, some girls will come and play that game well. Mythical figures such as the girl who beat John Romero at a Doom deathmatch.

What if the question to ask is not how would the girls enjoy a game better, but how would the guys playing enjoy the girls who are playing better? And to be honest, I believe these two questions have the same answer.

How would you like this: This game plus webcam plus live audio? I bet some girls would be _very_ successfull at this game, and I also bet the guys playing will _like_ it. This may still work with but audio messages.

#52 Hase   Members   -  Reputation: 313

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 11:27 PM

Just to clear something up: I didn´t mention this before, as I had somehow assumed that it was clear anyways - I think most of us (me included) weren´t discussing games for girls in general (as in girls=the other half of the population ), but as the part of the potential audience of computer games who are NOT playing games at the moment, or who are only playing small casual games.
I see that some of those who are typical core-gamers might feel offended by some of what´s been said here, but please bear in mind that most of what´s been discussed does not apply to you. Female core gamers are not relevant to this discussion, as they are already playing and happy with it.

Maybe another thing that has been neglected is the process of how to turn a casual gamer into a core gamer, so how about we have a look at some cases? It would be interesting (not only the female audience now) to see how people get into games, what the typical portal games are, etc.
Because what we should focus on is not how to make "games for girls", but how to get girls interested in the games we are making now, or how to change the games we are making now to make them interesting. I think that once you are inside the gaming thing it´s much easier to access new or different types of games.

So lets talk about the ideal portal game.




#53 digitaldirt   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 11:35 PM

The AP who posted the message, kudos! I''m glad you posted such a thoughtout message. I think that a game that has captured equally the attention of guys and girls is MYST and RIVEN. It had a good storyline, great artwork and intuitive game play... and you didn''t have a gun to go around killing the tree''s.

Thats not why girls and guys liked it... they liked it becuase it was something new. something different, and had an imaginative story tat made you keep playing.

So i guess the conclusion to this thread is that we should all work on better storylines, better character development, no matter what genre your game is in. If the story, imagery and characters are interesting enough, we''ll get a wider audience. And that is what the end of my studies has determined.

btw: it was girls from 14-40, didn''t get anyone terribly old, but well, i appreciated their time and again appreciate all the input on this thread, besides the namecalling and sexist accusing posters. I don''t think anyone on this thread is sexist, but may have said ignorant things. It helps to think your idea before typing it.

thanks again.


#54 MadKeithV   Moderators   -  Reputation: 971

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Posted 06 December 2001 - 01:03 AM

quote:
Original post by digitaldirt
Thats not why girls and guys liked it... they liked it becuase it was something new. something different, and had an imaginative story tat made you keep playing.


AND because they did not have any blatantly sexist references such as a semi-nude leatherclad opponent or a female player character with boobs that would have made Pamela Anderson Lee blush.

Remember: if you''re turning people OFF from your game, it''s going to be very hard to pull them in again.

Diodor''s post about "portal" games, I think, is on the money. It''s not that girls (or anyone who''s not used to playing computer games)will never play games. It just hasn''t been marketed to them right. We need to make games that lure them from really casual games (solitaire) into the deeper recesses of game playing, games that actually take more than 10 minutes, and require a bit of attention.

I think it would have to be pretty gradual, and VERY easy to get into. Full-screen is out of the question to pull computer-illiterate people in. It scares the living daylights out of them to suddenly see that windows bar disappear. Remember, it probably took them a big leap of faith to just turn the PC on (think of your mom).
So you need a well-behaved, windowed game. It can have fancy graphics, but within the boundaries of the window. It can have fancy sound, but not to the point of overriding the windows sounds. It can''t have fancy controls, because the people using it will not want to see their mouse suddenly doing weird things on the screen, their pointer disappearing, their menu key-strokes suddenly doing completely different things.

Adventure games could be a really good start to this. They can fit perfectly into the paradigm, and there''s no real-time component to worry the not-so-adept computer user.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.

#55 Ferinorius   Members   -  Reputation: 125

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Posted 06 December 2001 - 01:14 AM

I think that if you make a game with a great story, good plot twists, and strong believable characters that guys and girls alike can relate to, then a girl will like it just as well as a guy. C''mon. We all know that guys and girls BOTH read books. Stories of interest keep people interested.

The story for my upcoming RPG (well not TOO upcoming, its a ways off) is interesting to not only me and my co-writer (GET THIS!! A Female!!!!) but my girlfriend likes it. If you are making an RPG, then make it worth continuing. Make it interesting.

Neo-Toshi - The City That Never Sleeps

#56 digitaldirt   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 06 December 2001 - 02:24 AM

Yeah, whats the deal with Diablo II with all the g-string chicks running around with spears? oh yeah, thats a believable story.

I hope there won''t be a Diablo III. I think Blizzard needs to invest their time in a new type of game. the whole warcraft, starcraft and diablo thing is kinda running on a bit long.



#57 digitaldirt   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 06 December 2001 - 02:32 AM

Ferinorius,

Your game''s story is just about an exact rip off of Baldur''s Gate.

"Bring the memories and pain of that time my son, for I will listen. Your father is killed in front of your eyes. You can do nothing but cower.

Lightly he told you to run. "Why?" you thought. You hesitated but ran...

All too quickly the terror comes. Silver eyes pierce you. You run off. Your father...is....

Dead...it comes so quickly. Awaken my friend. The time is now for you to take up your sword and find the truth. You are Blade.

Emerge in a world where nothing is what it seems and everything you attach yourself to fades away. Your life is lead by an unknown force, yet you have to continue on...

Your destiny is chosen, and your tale is nothing but deception."

in Baldur''s Gate, nothing was what it seemed. And it was "deception" after deception after deception all the way to the end. Everything you trusted, was turned around on you.

Anyway, mabye it was a coincidence. You should pick up the game. and see the very similiarities that your story has with Baldur''s Gate. mabye try for something more original?

Anyway, keep us all up to date.




#58 Mooglez   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 06 December 2001 - 11:58 AM

quote:
Original post by Diodor
How would you like this: This game plus webcam plus live audio? I bet some girls would be _very_ successfull at this game, and I also bet the guys playing will _like_ it. This may still work with but audio messages.


No, no, no. Last thing we need is to have to resolve to webcam and live audio on driving the female gamers cause you''re just turning the game into a chat interface.

quote:
Original post by Hase
Just to clear something up: I didn´t mention this before, as I had somehow assumed that it was clear anyways - I think most of us (me included) weren´t discussing games for girls in general (as in girls=the other half of the population ), but as the part of the potential audience of computer games who are NOT playing games at the moment, or who are only playing small casual games.
I see that some of those who are typical core-gamers might feel offended by some of what´s been said here, but please bear in mind that most of what´s been discussed does not apply to you. Female core gamers are not relevant to this discussion, as they are already playing and happy with it.


Amen to that! Someone should have pointed this out in the first place.

To the AP poster above:
Temporary file site for GTW I am sure you will be most interested on the project as the majority of our artists are females. Not to mention we also have the forum "goddess" Sunandshadow as our main writer/producer. Please, email me before I implement some crazy long combo battle system into the game that no female gamer will ever enjoy performing.

#59 mjacobsca   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 06 December 2001 - 06:07 PM

Personally, I like to make games from a 1st person perspective - not graphically, but conceptually (adventure games where you don''t see yourself, turn-based games, etc...) This allows the player to play "as themselves". My last adventure game has been played by as many women as men. Not forcing the player to assume the role of a certain gender gives the game more appeal and allows the player to associate more with the protagonist.

Unfortunately, being a female gamer requires a certain amount of patience and tolerance - as the game world seems to produce games for a male audience - and games produced for female audiences are ridiculously stereotyped and outlandish, if not insulting. Even worse is the fact that the stupid posts in this thread mentioning how a game needs to be in pink just demonstrate what audience game companies think they have to market games too. Go to the forums on www.ghostrecon.com - there are entire threads dedicated to complaining about the fact that the game has female snipers. These types of displays of sexist attitudes only hurt the future of gender-neutral pc games.

#60 Diodor   Members   -  Reputation: 517

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Posted 06 December 2001 - 09:32 PM

quote:

Original post by MadKeithV

Diodor''s post about "portal" games, I think, is on the money.



That was Hase''s post. My post said that we shouldn''t worry about the casual girl gamers or even about the non gamer girls, turning those to serious gaming will not happen soon. Instead we should focus on bringing the few girl gamers that will read the manual and will play a complicated hardcore game in the center of attention and expect an increase in sales from the guy players.

The one idea that could do this (besides using large neon arrow signs) was bishop_pass''s Online politics and conquest RPG. The aim of that game was that real-life social skills would be a very important part in playing the game. That''s why I expect the few girls that would play such a game to be very successful, even if their in-game skills are not the best.


quote:

Original post by Mooglez

No, no, no. Last thing we need is to have to resolve to webcam and live audio on driving the female gamers cause you''re just turning the game into a chat interface.



Unless the chat is _part_ of the game.




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