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Next generation games


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#21 MikeD   Members   -  Reputation: 158

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Posted 01 February 2000 - 11:33 PM

...and halve the frame rate....

Though supporters of the idea might be willing to trade off one for the other.

Wait until DirectX supports it though, eh.

Edited by - MikeD on 2/2/00 8:38:25 AM

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#22 Paladin   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 02 February 2000 - 03:00 AM

Hmm... personally I''m little skeptic (uh... spelling) about VR-glasses, because I have been hearing that those are giving BAD headech (argh !!! spelling !!!)... uh... Bad crack into head or something cool

Hmm.. english... Ok, anyway, I have been wondering about this too:
Lets think about comment "Monitors are not 3D". Lets ignore the idea that our eyes are show image actually so called "Fake 3D", because eye, after all, is "flat" (actually I cannot even think what being REAL 3D CREATURE would be, we should be able to see "everything", I think ... Maybe Albert Einstein would understand this stuff . We see a monitor that shows us whats happening on the screen, but actually it''s just putting layer over layer.

Now, is there some way to produce hi-tech next generation monitor ? First I thought, OF COURSE ! Let''s create hologram monitor... but darn, actually with hologram, you cannot see further than the area where the hologram is showing... You will understand when you see the StarWars movie, where Chewie and R2D2 are playing futuristic hologram chess. So would anyone have idea how to produce something that is emulating 3D world some other way ? Just fun idea

#23 dog135   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 02 February 2000 - 07:29 AM

I don't think they have anything out yet that has much depth as far as "hologram monitors" is conserned. I did see one on TV that's being used in the medical field that's similar to the chess board on Star Wars but it's VERY expensive.

Oh, wait, I just remembered one. They have one where you put on a pair of polorized glasses to see a different image from the monitor in each eye. It's not as good quality as VR glasses but a group of people can see the same thing from one monitor. (I think the monitor's a bit big too. I think they have two monitors hooked up with a polorized screen, then they combine the images with mirrors.)

VR glasses can cause headaches if they're not adjusted for the user's eyes (width and focus). For the most part, they're just like looking at any other monitor. Or like looking at the eye piece of a video camera. Also, if it's used with "Doom" type games, you can get headaches from motion sickness. I don't see the frame rate being a problem, most games could be drawn with fewer special effects and get full animation speed. Also, if you used two graphics accelerators, a lot of the processing time would be split up on different CPU's. Some of the VR equipment I've seen before uses two standard computers networked together (or a motherboard and a daughter board) to split up the processing time that way. Many new computers come with multiple processors.

E:cb woof!

Edited by - dog135 on 2/2/00 1:32:16 PM

#24 kill   Members   -  Reputation: 146

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Posted 02 February 2000 - 08:08 AM

Concerning the multilevel hybrid games, I had this idea a long time ago, and I thought a lot about the design of that type of games. Let''s take strategy games for example, how about a hybrid of starcraft and quake, where certain people are fighting, other people are commanding. Why don''t we take the idea a step further. U start as a private, and play in a first person shooter. Then u move up, up, up, up, and then hopefully u become a general.
The design... Yeah, that''s would be hard. But what if Blizzard and ID had a strategic alignment. Each company would hire a designer, then they would select a lead designer, and two companies together would design and implement a game.

Some other ideas... I wouldn''t mind seeing the computer get a lot smarter. Even neural networks, fuzzy logic, etc. don''t give the PC enough brains. I wouldn''t mind seeing the PC talking to me, and understanding me... I am actually working on something like that right now. It''s not as complex as I would want it to be, but who knows...

#25 mikael_j   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 02 February 2000 - 08:53 AM

An idea that I would like to see would be a game where you have, let''s say 3-4 people on each side giving orders to the "grunts", and the grunts would be fighting the battles (kinda like c&c, but on a larger scale, and perhaps with a limited amount of raw materials to build vehicles and weapons of)



#26 dog135   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 02 February 2000 - 11:04 AM

Hmm, first person fighting in an outer space scenario. That''d be interesting. If you could get enough people together at the same time that is. The comander would have to learn the strengths and weaknesses of his people and decide who should lead/follow/hold back. He could draw up a battle plan and share with his people. The only knowledge he''d have before hand is the layout of the other ship, and his knowledge of how good his people are. (As well as the enemy if he''s faught them before)
There could also be a "holo-deck" on the ship where you can train and practice with fake injuries.

That would actualy be pretty cool. It''d take a lot of cooperation between a lot of people and a lot of 2 hour meetings online.

E:cb woof!

#27 Hans   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 04 February 2000 - 05:58 AM

About the VR glasses.. They are never going to be good enough for the public because they give headache. But I''ve heard about technology that can display an image right in your eyes so that there is no monitor and no glasses. Just direct laser beams in your eyes.

And smelling games wouldn''t be that good actually, think of what you usually smell in real world: nothing. Maybe in quake you could smell dead corpses but I wouldn''t like that

Maybe the most important realistic step after voice control and laser image would be hand movement. I want to use my hands in a game to grab stuff and hold a weapon. "Data-gloves" have been reality for some years but no-one has started to sell them cheaply to mass market. Why, nobody knows..

As for design, Internet games aren''t going to be the whole future (even though the bandwitch gets to 100 terabytes/second and latency is microseconds). Online RPG''s don''t suite well for good plots. If you are just thrown in to a huge internet world where you can do anything, what will you actually do? Slay monsters and buy better weapons. Good game should be done so that plot (dynamic of course) gives the player always something clever to do. Players don''t really know what they should do, so they must be guided. For example, Half-life''s plot gives player always something to look at and to think about, so that the player doesn''t have to fiqure out himself what he should do.

As for the very first question: simulators can''t get any better without more senses involved (wind in your hair, 3d vision, even smell). Simulators are just already as good as they can be.

RTS games need something very orginal, maybe a global huge network playing arena, where you could have your own country to maintain. And you could hire guys for your side to maintain the system so you wouldn''t have to do everything on your own.

RPG games are going to evolve a lot. Dynamic plot that leads the way for player, billions of characters with their own backgrounds, a huge interactive world where everything is possible... As said before here, static plots totally suck.


-Hans


#28 Lubb   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 04 February 2000 - 09:19 AM

- I know I''m new around here, but it sounds like many are wishing for a better forest and I have a question about a couple trees. For anyone with an opinion:
- I keep seeing "If we only had better graphics, , ," and "if we only had good VR glasses, , ,". How, exactly, would better graphics make any game experience more entertaining? What function do the graphics serve? Would Pong have been any better if it had been available in 32 bit graphics? Is there anything that you want to show on screen that there''s absolutely no way that you can do now? I like to look at pretty pictures too, but pretty pictures alone do not make for a satisfying game experience. They enhance a good idea, but won''t float a lamer for very long. Yes it''s true, someday we''ll be ray-tracing Riven worlds in real time but when that day comes, people will expect it as the norm and they''ll be bored with that, too.
- I also keep seeing references to multiplayer: hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of online players, participating at once. What exactly it the purpose of this? I have seen (other places) complaints that "so-and-so game engine only allows 16 multiplayers, not 32" or of coming engines that will allow dozens of players at once, but what does having 32 players bring to the experience above 16? Or 64 above 32?
--- What if we made a chess board of 500 x 500 squares, and tried to play a game? Likely due to problems of sheer management, most of both sides'' pieces would be quickly lost until only a small number remained close to each other, playing the same old strategies. That you had a huge number of starting pieces and a huge board to move around on wouldn''t end up mattering much, really. It would still end up the same old (small) game. - Lubb

#29 Mezz   Members   -  Reputation: 570

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Posted 04 February 2000 - 09:40 AM

In answer to I-Shaolin''s first reply here,
when you say things are too linear with the point A to point B stuff - I don''t disagree, but if that is not the case people usually seem to complain about not knowing where the heck they are supposed to be going, or what they should be doing.
Put this down to bad design if you will, but it can be difficult to acheive a balance where the player is being manipulated into doing things a certain way, but they do not realise that the manipulation is there.
I hope I explained that well


Take it easy,

-Mezz


#30 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 04 February 2000 - 10:14 AM

Sorry, I haven''t read this whole thread yet, but I wanna say my idea. My Idea s a cutsey platformer game. ACK, don''t hurt me! Its more than that. It''ll be a detective game. A group of little Cristmas Lights have to solve a huge mystery in each game, with clues and all. This way, you can plop the player in your game and say "Find some clues, solve da mystery" instead of saying "beat the final boss". Heehee. The game would also be funny. I have idea''s for a 2D game called "The Case Of The Permenent Sticky." Someday, when I am able to, (IE: Have enough experience), Ill make it. Heehee, bye!

--BugSquash
Taeloid!

#31 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 04 February 2000 - 11:22 AM

This one regarding the V-R glasses etc... Anyone heard about this new-tech(don''t have link ) where they actually paint the screen on your retina with a laser. They been using this with the military but a company is developing a cusumer level product. For my understanding you basiclly wear a laser-headset, the headset will shoot a laser INTO your eyes and project a screen onto your eyes. I think this would be really cool, it could change the current situation with the VR glasses. What do you guys think?

#32 Paladin   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 04 February 2000 - 01:41 PM



Hahaa !!! We won''t hurt you ;D
You have IDEA, that is not clone of something that is just burger stuff that markets are full. Remember that this kind of ideas usually make best reviews ... but thanks to poor audience, don''t sell well

Anyway, I think that platform games should make come back, let me explain:

My basis about next-generation games lay under HARDCORE ENGINE, that is next-gen in meaning of word... well, kind of:
As I told before about future of 3D-games, I was explaining that some company should create standard engine, which can be expanded, and will become this virtual-world, because people simply don''t have time to program every damn physics of grass again and again.

Same with 2D games ! Honestly, have you people played any of these games:

Auts
V-wing (best!)
Turboraketti / Turborocket
Sub... what is that net only game ? Sub something...

This are just examples: Think about this games, all are games where players simply have asteroids-style controls, bitmap worlds, and deathmatch... DAMN FUN ENTERTAIMENT :D
But we are missing something, and that is "deep" system. All these games are using own engine and system, but are just clones against each other. If I would create new clone for this games, I would simply license from one of the creators, and expand this old 2D-world to new more complicated system. Throw stuff like:

Support to 3D-cards (for better graphics)
Capture The Flag Mode
Ground Vehicles with hovercraft equipment (only short flying) and so on and so on.

This is the way how we can create more complicated worlds. Ofcourse I could create all own engine and game, but what''s the point ? Again new clone without anything new, because I got bored to create lots of new things after I programmed new engine allmost one year !

This is what I believed that happend to Quake III; it became more just new engine, than new game. Lets see Unreal Tournament in other hand: Just couple of new features for graphics (old engine was cool already , way better network code, and ... WOU ! "We have lot''s of empty time to create new stuff !" , and after adding modes like Assault, Domination, and MOD''s, game beats Quake III in my opinion, because it''s more comprehensive and deeper experience, than new engine with old deathmatch.

This is exactly what I meant with using standard engines. Think about sequel of Quake III, IF it''s done with Quake III engine, with new graphic libraryes and lot''s of new cool features, NOT NEW BASE ENGINE !

Hmm... I think "that''s all folks"... For this time
I''m REALLY glad that you people have been giving your visions about next-generation of gaming, and I''m waiting for more opinions


#33 Paladin   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 04 February 2000 - 01:47 PM

Ouh, and reply for last post:

I think that this new technology is going to be cool
Also I''m waiting for new headset, that use electronics to give shocks on your ears, that cause you to feel that you are rolling around, so it''s actually making your inner ear feel what you see in the game. Sounds REALLY COOL !
I checked this company''s homepage, and it really looks & sounds cool, because then you could "feel" like being in the game... and don''t worry, those shocks are not 10000 volts ;D

I think that someone posted link for this page at beginning of this discussion.

#34 Hans   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 04 February 2000 - 09:53 PM

Paladin, are you from Finland, too?-)
Just thought so because you knew those cave-fliers so well... I am actually making a one myself Any good ideas for a 2d cave-flier game?

#35 Paladin   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 05 February 2000 - 04:58 AM

Yap, I''m from Finland !

Right now I''m an exhange-student at USA, Midland, Michigan. I just finished my Highschool at Finland.

Hmm... Ideas for cave-fighters:

Make engine up as fast as you can, and spend rest of the time with new ideas, not with new technology !

Make resolution to be 320x200 - 640x480, atleast. Use Direct-X (even after I have never used it, I know that it''s "the only way to fly"
Add new ideas ! Create level-editor, which lets player to load bitmap files, and lay those to create parallax backgrounds. One problem with old 256 color -level creating system is that the person who is creating levels, CANNOT create transparent earth easily. Also forget the old system, which is that color 45 is "base" color, which causes repair, it''s history ! Add this base and so on features on level editor.
Maybe try adding 4 wheel truck which can hover only a while in the air, and uses magnets to stay on the ground (so it can actually be upside down from ceiling !).
Hmm... Add tournament mode, with additional features like: worst player is dropped from next level and so on.
Add computer players (this is MUST !)
Add capture the flag mode
Add new guns that other games didn''t add, like forcefield bomb and so on.
Multiplayer also is must for this kind of game !

and PLEASE: Play V-wing ! It''s absolutely the best cave-fighter game, even after it''s little old. It has the best physics that I ever saw in any cave fighter. Also it has really nice computer players, mod-music player, win95 support (hey ! it''s originally dos-code, and works still on windowed mode !), and it has REALLY cool weapons

This are just couple of ideas. I really mean that you CANNOT create new king of cave fighters by adding one or two new ideas, you have create the MOST DEEPEST cave fighter to get audience to play it. Play games like Unreal Tournament and other cave fighters, and copy the best ideas, and add MUCH new ones.

#36 Hans   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 06 February 2000 - 05:50 AM

(it feels silly to write english to a finnish person.. and we are talking about cave-fliers that only finnish people know )

Yeah forgot to tell I have already made my game for over a year so it''s quite complete now =). Yes, it manages the docking problem well, it has computer players and high resolutions with direct-x.

But the idea of differently behaving vehicles is great! Ufo''s (that don''t actually turn but only fly directly in the direction you make them to go), cars and hovercrafts add really much depth to a genre like this. So everybody don''t have that typical AUTS-ship to fly with.

CTF maybe needs too much players. But I''m planning to make an internet mode also.

Well, I''ll just get back playing V-wing

-Hans


#37 Hans   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 06 February 2000 - 05:51 AM

(it feels silly to write english to a finnish person.. and we are talking about cave-fliers that only finnish people know )

Yeah forgot to tell I have already made my game for over a year so it''s quite complete now =). Yes, it manages the docking problem well, it has computer players and high resolutions with direct-x.

But the idea of differently behaving vehicles is great! Ufo''s (that don''t actually turn but only fly directly in the direction you make them to go), cars and hovercrafts add really much depth to a genre like this. So everybody don''t have that typical AUTS-ship to fly with.

CTF maybe needs too much players. But I''m planning to make an internet mode also.

Well, I''ll just get back playing V-wing

-Hans


#38 dvm   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 06 February 2000 - 06:28 AM

I''m not from Finland, so you''ll have to excuse my ignorance, but is there a place where I could download a demo of this V-wing game? It sounds interesting.

-Dave



#39 Hans   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 07 February 2000 - 12:18 AM

You can find V-wing probably from
www.finnishgames.com
If you can''t find V-wing, try Wings (good playability), Tappo2 (good gfx) and Rocket Chase (some peoples favourite). They all can be found from the finnishgames server (witch seemed to be down today).

Cave-fliers don''t have very good graphics in general, but they have killer playability. And they are usually played with two or more people on same keyboard, although some of them have computer players also. Well, see for yourself =)

-Hans


#40 Paladin   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 07 February 2000 - 03:05 AM

TERRIBLE MISTAKE !!! V-wing is not as good as WINGS ;DDD
I was talking about wings all the time, when I actually wrote about V-wing

I''m BIG Wings fan ! That game just rocks so hard ;D
I was involved in creating levels for wings, and my friend was too (Ossi Ojutkangas, you might find he''s "hellish" levels in wings, and probaply some electronic fields too)

Hmm... it has been quite a while since I played cave fighter last time ;D




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