Hey, I was just wondering what you think about Java and how far its gonna go. My teacher says that Java is the next big thing and will replace C++, does this mean that it will invade the game industry too? Does Java have anything that C++ can''t do?
will java become the next big language?
Started by the_nemesis, Feb 25 2002 04:25 AM
146 replies to this topic
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#4 Members - Reputation: 122
Posted 25 February 2002 - 04:36 AM
Time to get a new teacher. C++ is here to stay. Languages never die, people do.
-me
BTW, Java has been out for a long time. How long does your teacher think it will become the next big thing? When all of the college grads who learn Java enter the industry and the C++ guys retire?
-me
BTW, Java has been out for a long time. How long does your teacher think it will become the next big thing? When all of the college grads who learn Java enter the industry and the C++ guys retire?
#7 Members - Reputation: 122
Posted 25 February 2002 - 04:42 AM
I HOPE Java doesn''t invade the games industry. There is nothing it can do that C++ can''t (well except that applet thing). Plus it is a lot slower. I suppose the fact that is platform independant is a good thing, but this does mean that the JVM has to be installed on the machine to be able to run the program.
So my answer is, Java is (and will be) used for web browser based games, but I doubt it will be used for much else in the games industry.
I find most teachers/lecturers like to talk about new things that will be great. Usually they are wrong
.
So my answer is, Java is (and will be) used for web browser based games, but I doubt it will be used for much else in the games industry.
I find most teachers/lecturers like to talk about new things that will be great. Usually they are wrong
.
#8 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_* Guests - Reputation:
Posted 25 February 2002 - 04:52 AM
I am hoping my lecturers are not veiwing this...
Lecturers are lecturors for reason. Those who can, Do. Those who can''t, teach. If they were the best, surely they be doing.
Please forgive any offence i cause, i dont normally bitch!
Lecturers are lecturors for reason. Those who can, Do. Those who can''t, teach. If they were the best, surely they be doing.
Please forgive any offence i cause, i dont normally bitch!
#9 Members - Reputation: 122
Posted 25 February 2002 - 04:56 AM
Java is good for non time critical apps (scientifics app or buisness).
Games requiert performance.
There is somes java games but not many.
The Jester Home in French
Games requiert performance.
There is somes java games but not many.
The Jester Home in French
#10 Members - Reputation: 198
Posted 25 February 2002 - 04:59 AM
Unless you are flat out determined that game development is all you are going to do in your career, I suppose some of the comments against Java might carry some weight (in today''s industry).
If you are asking about Java because you plan on pursuing a career in programming for business related apps, Java is a very valuable language to know. There are many reasons to use Java over C++ in business, but the #1 reason to me is application development times. It''s for this reason that Visual Basic is also a popular business language.
Now, do I think Java will make it into the games industry? Sure I do. It''s just a matter of time before Java has the capabilities needed to satisfy hard code game developers. And when it does, watch out. It will be used by many. I don''t believe it will take over, but it will get a good market share. The reason, to save time! If a game shop can crank out the same quality of game in half the time, they will do it. That''s because it affects the bottom line.
As I tell everyone else, if something interests you, learn it. If you think it will be useful later on, learn it. If you want to make money, learn it. And this applies to more than just programming languages.
borngamer
If you are asking about Java because you plan on pursuing a career in programming for business related apps, Java is a very valuable language to know. There are many reasons to use Java over C++ in business, but the #1 reason to me is application development times. It''s for this reason that Visual Basic is also a popular business language.
Now, do I think Java will make it into the games industry? Sure I do. It''s just a matter of time before Java has the capabilities needed to satisfy hard code game developers. And when it does, watch out. It will be used by many. I don''t believe it will take over, but it will get a good market share. The reason, to save time! If a game shop can crank out the same quality of game in half the time, they will do it. That''s because it affects the bottom line.
As I tell everyone else, if something interests you, learn it. If you think it will be useful later on, learn it. If you want to make money, learn it. And this applies to more than just programming languages.
borngamer
#11 Members - Reputation: 122
Posted 25 February 2002 - 05:00 AM
Well after the detailed reply's from the above I would have to disagree. C++ will still be an integral part of games but will become more like asm.
Now I deliver this based on the theory that history repeats itself. Now having been around the block a lot longer than a lot of people (my first game was on a Commodore 64 in machine code) and in my youth believed that games could never be made in any other language especially not C (the base of C++).
As hardware got faster and more memory and compiler optimisation C++ became more viable as it was more portable and enabled parts of code which did not need optimisation (anything but graphics) and the cost effectiveness of C++ coding over asm made it essential to company life to reduce development life cycles. I could go on and on but trust me that C/C++ was used as more of a business decision initially.
Now I believe Java (and VB) will replace C++ as the main stream language but that’s in about 5 years time when processors will be about 16Ghz (processor speed doubles every 18months) and the nVidia GeForce 14 (new GPU every 6 months) means that the amount of raw power within a machine won't need an optimal language as C++/ASM and would open the way for Java and VB to become mainstream and Java will lead the way due to its platform independence.
If you don't believe me look at how games have evolved from Machine code only, to small amounts of C and lots of ASM, to lots of C++ and small amounts of ASM, to just C++, then C++ with small amounts of Java to small amounts of C++ with lots of Java to pure Java games.
The funny thing is that its already happening as I have heard that one game uses Java for scripting already.
So when in doubt look back at history and see what happened then, and then you know what will happen.
I would take this chance to learn Java and become a good Object based programmer and therefore if Java does become the language you will have at most 5 years experience which would almost guarantee you a good wage in the industry.
Edited by - stiby on February 25, 2002 12:05:09 PM
Now I deliver this based on the theory that history repeats itself. Now having been around the block a lot longer than a lot of people (my first game was on a Commodore 64 in machine code) and in my youth believed that games could never be made in any other language especially not C (the base of C++).
As hardware got faster and more memory and compiler optimisation C++ became more viable as it was more portable and enabled parts of code which did not need optimisation (anything but graphics) and the cost effectiveness of C++ coding over asm made it essential to company life to reduce development life cycles. I could go on and on but trust me that C/C++ was used as more of a business decision initially.
Now I believe Java (and VB) will replace C++ as the main stream language but that’s in about 5 years time when processors will be about 16Ghz (processor speed doubles every 18months) and the nVidia GeForce 14 (new GPU every 6 months) means that the amount of raw power within a machine won't need an optimal language as C++/ASM and would open the way for Java and VB to become mainstream and Java will lead the way due to its platform independence.
If you don't believe me look at how games have evolved from Machine code only, to small amounts of C and lots of ASM, to lots of C++ and small amounts of ASM, to just C++, then C++ with small amounts of Java to small amounts of C++ with lots of Java to pure Java games.
The funny thing is that its already happening as I have heard that one game uses Java for scripting already.
So when in doubt look back at history and see what happened then, and then you know what will happen.
I would take this chance to learn Java and become a good Object based programmer and therefore if Java does become the language you will have at most 5 years experience which would almost guarantee you a good wage in the industry.
Edited by - stiby on February 25, 2002 12:05:09 PM
#12 Members - Reputation: 122
Posted 25 February 2002 - 05:07 AM
As a java source could be compiled and build into an executable, it could be a good language for games.
It''s just what i think.
But, I prefer C++. It''s a very powerful language, and you don''t need to pass 3 classes in order to print something on screen !
Fratt
It''s just what i think.
But, I prefer C++. It''s a very powerful language, and you don''t need to pass 3 classes in order to print something on screen !
Fratt
#13 Members - Reputation: 968
Posted 25 February 2002 - 06:19 AM
quote:
Original post by Blacksmith_Tony
There is nothing it can do that C++ can''t (well except that applet thing).
Some of the things java has that C++ doesnt:
- Garbage collection
- Built in serialization
- Bounds checking
- Reflection
- Dynamic class loading
- Integrated threading support
The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence. Abu''l-Ala-Al-Ma''arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
#14 Members - Reputation: 122
Posted 25 February 2002 - 06:38 AM
You can hardly tell the difference between the speed of Java and C++.
Java is faster than many people think.
But Java sucks because I need to carry around a 100 mb JVM in order to get the shitty little "Hello World"- app to work!
That''s why it never will become a language where you develop games.
Java is faster than many people think.
But Java sucks because I need to carry around a 100 mb JVM in order to get the shitty little "Hello World"- app to work!
That''s why it never will become a language where you develop games.
#15 Members - Reputation: 590
Posted 25 February 2002 - 06:58 AM
quote:
Original post by zedd_
You can hardly tell the difference between the speed of Java and C++.
Java is faster than many people think.
Well on a 2 GHz supa-dupa machine you may not see a difference running a Java or C++ "Hello World" app.
But trust me, on my lousy 200MHz K6 you *do* notice...
Bye, VizOne
#16 Members - Reputation: 631
Posted 25 February 2002 - 07:10 AM
Saying that as C++ replaced assembly, Java will probably replace C++, isn''t a very good comparison. C++ code compiles to assembly, so it''s just a matter of how efficient the compiler optimizations are. I''ve found that Visual C++ is extremely good and that the speed difference between its generated assembly code and very carefully optimized handwritten assembly is very small.
But Java is interpreted, so it will always be slower than C++. It doesn''t matter what the code does or how fast the processor is, the Java code will always be slower than the equivalent C++ code. And the complexity of games always ramps up as the hardware improves, so the hardware is always pushed to the limit. So you need all the speed you can get.
You can create simple 3D Java games, but only because all rendering is done by the 3D card, so not much Java code is being executed.
But I do believe there is a strong future for Java or at least something similar to it.
~CGameProgrammer( );
But Java is interpreted, so it will always be slower than C++. It doesn''t matter what the code does or how fast the processor is, the Java code will always be slower than the equivalent C++ code. And the complexity of games always ramps up as the hardware improves, so the hardware is always pushed to the limit. So you need all the speed you can get.
You can create simple 3D Java games, but only because all rendering is done by the 3D card, so not much Java code is being executed.
But I do believe there is a strong future for Java or at least something similar to it.
~CGameProgrammer( );
#17 Members - Reputation: 968
Posted 25 February 2002 - 07:16 AM
quote:
Original post by CGameProgrammer
But Java is interpreted, so it will always be slower than C++. It doesn''t matter what the code does or how fast the processor is, the Java code will always be slower than the equivalent C++ code. And the complexity of games always ramps up as the hardware improves, so the hardware is always pushed to the limit. So you need all the speed you can get.
All current JVM''s JIT the code - its not interpreted. Jitted code theoretically has the potential to outperform native code, since it can optimize for the target platform at runtime.
Resist Java ignorance among C/C++ programmers
#18 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_* Guests - Reputation:
Posted 25 February 2002 - 08:01 AM
quote:
Original post by Arild Fines
All current JVM''s JIT the code - its not interpreted. Jitted code theoretically has the potential to outperform native code, since it can optimize for the target platform at runtime.
Notice the two words "theoretically" and "potential" in that sentence.
#19 Members - Reputation: 122
Posted 25 February 2002 - 08:07 AM
I don''t have much personal experience with Java but the syntax is very much like C++, unlike ASM and C++ which are very different.
So why would Java be faster than C++ to do games (coding time)?. I understand why if you were doing some GUI application but games are mostly logic and API calls (DirectX/OpenGL).
In that area what does Java do better than C++ ?
So why would Java be faster than C++ to do games (coding time)?. I understand why if you were doing some GUI application but games are mostly logic and API calls (DirectX/OpenGL).
In that area what does Java do better than C++ ?
#20 Members - Reputation: 186
Posted 25 February 2002 - 08:13 AM
wanna see slow, try limewire for any platform (written in java ). Also any java on mac ( ihave to use them at work ). Having said that java is a good language that is MUCH faster to program in. Als o the jvm is actually very small, not large.... they can fit on a cell phone. It is the java api''s that are large and OPTIONAL.
