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New game genre...


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#1 kill   Members   -  Reputation: 146

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Posted 11 March 2000 - 05:51 PM

Hi. I had this game idea, that came to me after I watched the Matrix. I don''t have the resources to implement anything like this, and it''s a long shot anyway, so I might as well share it with the community, so feel free to brainstorm. Most games that exist right now are based on one thing: there is a world based on rules. A player controls a character or a number of characters in this world. In order to win the game, the player needs to adapt to the rules in the most efficient way, and to master those rules. Even the God games that exist right now, where the player adds/removes objects to the world, and sees how the characters act are based on this. I want to propose something different. Why not let the user make the rules for the world, and allow the characters in the game be AI that adapts to the rules the user makes? This idea is very abstract, so please post ur opinion, and any ideas u have. May be one day we''ll see this type of game.

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#2 CGameProgrammer   Members   -  Reputation: 640

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Posted 11 March 2000 - 06:03 PM

The rules are the code, plain and simple. For the user to program their own rules, they''d have to program an add-on.

I know this isn''t what you meant, but if you think for a second what exactly the "rules" are, you''ll realize it''s really just what''s programmed. That is also what the rules in The Matrix are: it''s the code used in programming the world simulation known as The Matrix.

~CGameProgrammer( );



#3 kill   Members   -  Reputation: 146

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Posted 12 March 2000 - 05:32 AM

The rules are the code. However, what stops you from making soft architecture, where most of the rules are written in a simple scripting language? The script would be loaded at runtime, and the game itself would simply be a tool for changing this script visually.

This is all abstract, but I didn''t mean completely changing the world, that would be impossible. However giving the user an ability to change certain features is possible. For example, why not give the user a switch that would allow to change gravity? You could increase gravity, reduce gravity, or even make the gravity negative, so things could "fall up".

It would take a long time to design something like that, but chances are, it will pay off.

#4 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 12 March 2000 - 08:47 AM

I see your idea, kill, but I dont think that it would really work as a game -- its more like an a-life simulation. Heres my twist on your idea : Instead of allowing the user to change the rules, why not allow them to change conditions instead? Although the player wouldn''t have control over the inhabitants of the world, he could affect their actions by doing subtle little things which would affect the inhabitants actions. For instance, to start a war the player might make a resource scarce so that fighting ensues over it. Very difficult to implement, but I think it could be great fun if done right.

Someone said that games are really just a glorified user interfaces. Thats what this genre would be like, basically a different way of doing things. Instead of directly controling the characters, you would do subtle little things to them.

Any comments about my idea?

--TheGoop

#5 Paladin   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 12 March 2000 - 09:52 AM

Not bad, but way too complicated:

1) Needs huge amount of resources
2) Needs good, and darn complicated engine
3) Needs years of working to develope game with that huge amount of variables.

Still, the idea is pretty original. Kind of putting "strategy" (Civilization) elements into 3D, and adding bunch of weird stuff

#6 Strife   Members   -  Reputation: 374

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Posted 12 March 2000 - 10:18 AM

Yeah, that would be kinda cool, but I agree with CGameProgrammer. Basically, the rules are the code. Yeah, you could make a scripting language to allow the user to make their own rules, but now who would wanna spend that much time just to get a game to work? If you want to do something somewhat similar to this, but a lot less complicated, why not just make something where there are a whole bunch of rules that the player decides (and maybe can change them at any time) and they all work together in different ways, depending on which ones are chosen.

Commander M
http://commanderm.8m.com
cmndrm@commanderm.8m.com

#7 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 12 March 2000 - 11:30 AM

Paladin: I dont think it would be too hard, you just have to keep the topic focused somewhat. You cant simulate everything, but you can simulate some things. There are already some games somewhat like this. Simcity, for example. Very similiar in concept, although my idea would give you a bit more control over what goes on.

--TheGoop

#8 genovov   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 12 March 2000 - 01:55 PM

You don''t have to _make_ a scripting language either, just use an existing one like Python or Lua. The behaviour of objects in the world could be controled by scripts, and these scripts could be modified at runtime.

- genovov

#9 kressilac   Members   -  Reputation: 110

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Posted 13 March 2000 - 02:26 AM

Sounds very much like what a Never Winter Nights style game would do. The game works within the DnD rules framework, allowing the user to create scenarios for other players. I believe they can even use an embedded scripting language of sorts to give a less automated feel to npcs and such in the telling of their story. Great idea, extremely difficult to implement. It is almost as if you would be writing a generic game engine that would apply to all genres and all types within those.

Kressilac


#10 Sordith   Members   -  Reputation: 181

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Posted 13 March 2000 - 04:08 AM

Funny you mention NWN... I''ve just started work on a clone for a friend ;P

I don''t see why there is so much discusion about this idea... changing enviroment variables is just that simple... changing variables.

gravitational_accel = 9.8 //meters/second

if (user_changes_some_setting){
gravitational_accel ++
}

very simple, and you can do this with just about anything (all natural forces sizes, shapes, colors, etc)

#11 kill   Members   -  Reputation: 146

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Posted 13 March 2000 - 07:47 AM

Well, I am not saying that the game should simulate everything, like the world in the matrix. If someone makes that game, I'd love to see it, and even more, I'd love to see how it runs on my machine

Making a player deal with a scripting language is stupid, even if it's set in a nice user interface. Noone will ever play that game.

Every game on the market has certain rules. Whether it's tetris, starcraft, or mario. There is no way to make a generic game. It's simply not feasible.

How about the idea of letting the player control the gravity, the strength of certain units, the amount of resources, etc.? It means that the designer doesn't need to spend time balancing the game. The player will simply play around with the balance, and the AI will do it's job of adapting to it.


Edited by - kill on 3/13/00 1:48:32 PM

#12 WytRaven   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 13 March 2000 - 11:53 AM

Just a small comment, I can''t go into detail but I have an idea that I''ve been working on for a few years now that takes this reversed approach. Instead of actually playing a game with your character, you creat your character and a world/scenario for it to play in and then watch what happens. The point of my message is that this kind of idea is definately worth pursuing if only to freshen up the gaming world.




wytraven@kik.net
www.geocities.com/wytraven_2000

There is nothing real outside our perception of reality. Is there?

#13 spejic   Members   -  Reputation: 126

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Posted 13 March 2000 - 01:38 PM

Another problem is that a game that does not chalenge the user is not exciting. If there was a game where you were God, it would get boring because no one could touch you.

Yes, rules are constraints on the virtual world in the game, but it has to exist to create a satisfactory experience. For example, a racing game limits you to racing. If it was Matrix Racing™, you could just say "give me wings and a jetpack" and you fly over the other cars and win. But you ALWAYS win - that game would get very boring very fast.

The last episode of Neon Genesis Evangelion explains how creating a universe creates limitations on the creator. You might want to watch it (although it is very confusing to some people).


---
Grandpa Simpson - "I never thought I could shoot down a German plane, but last year I proved myself wrong!"


#14 kill   Members   -  Reputation: 146

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Posted 13 March 2000 - 02:53 PM

The idea is, that you don''t create the universe, and then play in it. The idea is that you create the universe for others to play in.

There are games that proved to be a lot of fun doing something like this. Creatures, for example.

#15 Centum   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 14 March 2000 - 05:33 AM

Well, I believe your idea is pretty nice. When I read it I thought of the holo - deck in Star Trek.
So I guess if you really wanted to create a game like this you''d have to program an intelligent AI first! Then one would tell this intelligence "Create a science fiction scenario where I can shoot some maschines in a starship" or something like that and this intelligence would create a world like that. I''m not as mad as to try to program something like that so someone else has to.....

But we should be carefull... perhaps this intelligence is so intelligent that it will put us in a matrix and play its own games...... so far.

#16 -=Code=-   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 16 March 2000 - 07:29 PM

Yeah whatever... you''ve been watching too many movies

#17 TheGecko   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 17 March 2000 - 06:42 AM

I think this sort of game has already been done,if you want to place objects and then let the computer interact with the objects that you placed then I would say check out "Black & White" or "The Sims"

#18 kill   Members   -  Reputation: 146

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Posted 17 March 2000 - 08:20 AM

Black and White is still and development(is it?), and the Syms suck.




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