All the problems revolve around the intensity of the feeling. You can''t just ignore that.
Damnit Kylothan I did not ignore that in my previous post. I clearly stated that the intensity of virtual life for a human being can never be as intensive as in real life. I did not ignore this, not even in that same post!! (since by now it''s clear that you seem not be interested in looking for the other arguments mentioned in the other posts by that person).
This is all true, but these things already exist on games and have proven insufficient for controlling grief players.
Indeed, this is true, the measures I would take, that are not yet done in todays MMOW would be:
- The Physical Weakness of every character even if they have lots of political or financial power. (like RL)
- The Birthing System that makes shure that newbies are protected by the parents and surrounding community and at the same time those newbies, since they are little and weak do not have the power to harm a lot, kill adults. (They wouldn''t mind griefing those children since they did not invest a lot of time in their character yet but if they want to become physical as powerfull as the adults and have access to other power structures and attractive things like a girlfriend, a house they will have to work for it, eat, invest time, fight, use your people skills.
By the time they are big they are a very part of the commmunity and have a lot to lose if they start to grief.
- The ''Trust'' System, making trust of other players possible and necessary by having Repeated Interaction (the people live in a tribal community, together and can''t easily go to other tribal communities, they will live together and see eachother a lot), Interaction History (I will make shure that people have planty of downtime(time that you are waiting for something and do not have to do anything) to chit chat and will that way talk a lot about eachother.) and Persistent Distinct Identities (It will be very difficult to have exactly the same character as somebody else.)
I might have forgotten other things that are important to implement if you want to grow organized societies with a lot of constructive social behaviour in it (next to a lot of destructive social behaviour, which is a very part of it).
Or I might not yet even have discovered, found other necessarily features you have to implement to realize such a dynamic living society.
Additionally, you have suggested implementing measures that reduce the effects of such losses or punishments, such as allowing multiple characters.
Allowing multiple characters was a solution to the prison sentence talked about in the other post. It was a solution to having nothing to do. I now realize that it was not a good solution as the effect of punishment would be lost if the player could just play another character (while this one is in prison). That way the player wouldn''t mind much doing the same crime again because he would not feel prison as a punishment.
I came upon that feature, being able to grow several characters at the same time (not moment) in the same world because this allows for real roleplaying. Since the other people don''t know that ''Gina'' and ''Jack'' are the same real person you can experiment a lot thanks to this mask being offered. If there are some strategies in it like tribal communities fighting eachother you could grow a personage in multiple communities and have valuable information thanks to this. This way somebody who knows how to play different roles would maximize his possibilities for success in that world.
I''ve lost track of what it is that you want to achieve. You started off saying you wanted constructive and/or social behaviour, and to cut out anti-social behaviour, but since then you''ve gone on to say that you embrace player-killers. It doesn''t make much sense. And I don''t see what you''re offering that''s any different from existing MMORPGs.
What I mean with ''embrace Player Killers'' is that the possibility to kill players, the power of attacking other players ingame, the power to have impact on other players is a must you need for a self policing system.
You need the option of killing other people or hurting them in order to create constructive social behaviour among the players. I embrace it because there lays the solution to the griefer problem.
Of course this alone does not solves the griefer problem. Why the griefer problem is there is simple. If you are invulnarable and there is no other people or godlike system of preventing you to kill that newbie than it is possible and as such will happen. (If you even gain something by doing this than it will happen a lot, is that the case in current MMORPG''s? I don''t know that.)
Before explaining what it is exactly that I offer that is different from current MMORPG''s I want to say something about the personality that you are playing in this thread.
You are not looking for solutions (or that is the impression you give) for today''s problems that arise from the systems we play/live in. Sometimes it seems like you feel treatend by the ideas being proposed certainly if they are about MMORPG''s, stats, griefers and such. I bet you are quite happy with today''s MMORPG''s and do not desire any other things, true?
A constructive discussion with people who are quite happy with current systems is difficult. You have to convince them that they can gain something too with this new system. If it is absolutely clear that they can only loose (or so they think) when implementing such a new system it is impossible to discuss with them.
This sort of people is not inspiring in the search for solutions. However the stupid things they constantly and repeatedly say train you very well in building up arguments and expressing your ideas as you constantly have to repeat them.
The nerving thing when discussing with such people however is that they constently seem to forget other things that have been said about the subject before, even when those are easily accesable, and often jump on just a part of the argument or simply rip things out of context.
If you stick to this role you play Kylotan you will be reduced to the observer role as you do not understand how these new systems work or are created. I would want to ask you to put some energy in the understanding of.
Still here Kylotan? If so then now clear your mind and forget all the insults that I have trown upon you. This is difficult but it is necessary in order to understand some new things I''m going to try to explain you here.
So here we go, especially for you Kylotan repeat and reformulate the ideas that I, Jay and some others have tried to explain until now.
The difference between today''s MMORPG''s and the game we propose is that we simply want a deeper simulation incorporated in our world. We want the simulation as deep as possible with lots of interdependent relationships between all the things you find in that world and the systems that guide them. If you offer such a simulation than the need for missions given by the gamedesigner is not necessary anymore because the world already allows for massive experimentation and possibilities. (Simcity)
So if we would make a gta serie (Grand Theft Auto, a popular game) we would try to go as deep as poossible in the simulation of a today''s city while keeping the focus on the sorts of activities that players from the series like (such as being a criminal, gang leader, cop, taxidriver, hooker, ...). Although you can do all this with ai, creating a dynamic living society) and do not need other players in the game world I personaly am very much attracted by using only real players as citizens because it allows for again a more real like experience (ai npc''s can''t simulate real living beings yet and for a long time probably). (I could also give an example of how the game would be different from Everquest for instance while keeping the same setting, environment, themes and roles but I''m just not familiar with that world and therefore have not fantasized yet about such a world in that setting and how it would feel, play.)
So as a player you would experience the difference in that you have no defined objectives from the gamedesigner and you would also notice that you can do a lot in that world.
The difficulty is, How do we create such a deep simulation of a city, certainly when a lot of real players are active in that world?
I''m going to stop here.
Somehow I do like your presence as it is way better than no responce at all. At least you live.
-Marc (This is my name if you speak to me, mentioning the back name feels ''teachy'', if you know what I mean)