Jump to content

  • Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

RivieraKid

Member Since 27 Feb 2007
Offline Last Active Today, 12:05 PM

Posts I've Made

In Topic: Now What For The UK ?

Yesterday, 10:06 AM

 

 

Pretty much this. Here in the US there's a lot of people who are like "we can't just have wide open borders to every guy who wants to come in to the US" (most of those people are Trump supporters btw) and that would be an issue if we did have wide open borders to every random Joe who wants to come in....except we don't. A lot of folks don't realize that it's process to stay in the US legally is a pretty long and complex one.

 

We're pretty much having the same problem here, which is that some people really want to blame immigrants for all the problems in the US.

 

 

 

 

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.


Well done; you managed to completely misunderstand the misrepresent what I said... *slow clap*

I didn't make a single claim about immigration in the quoted text.
Nor, in the unquoted text, did I say that people who had problems with immigration are racists.

What I said was that the only people who are happy now are the racists.
You know, those people who have been putting leaflets through Polish people's doors telling them to go home.
Or, as reported on the news last night, the people who told a guy of Indian/Pakistani decent (based on skin tone and bone structure) that because we voted out he has to go home - the guy is Welsh. Was born in Wales. Has a Welsh accent.

Those people have been emboldened by the 'leave' vote as they now THINK that the majority is behind them; the fact they are racists means they are fucking morons anyway, so that belief makes sense from their twisted insane point of view.

So you are lying to yourself if you don't think people give two thoughts to the colour of your skin, because some people do. If they didn't they wouldn't be out there telling integrated 2nd and 3rd generation British people to 'go home' and 'get out because we voted out' and other less charming phrases because they aren't white.
(There are plenty of other stories about the place where people doing their job have been laughed at and told they have to go home now; or woke up the day of the result to find people shouting 'make Britain white' in connection to the leave vote. It doesn't take much to find evidence of people being racist idiots in connection with this vote.)

If you think otherwise then you are lying to yourself.
And we are talking 'Earth is the centre of the universe' level lying.

 

 

I would like to add that we only see overt racism from people who are "tough" and "hard" because they have the "balls" to behave this way. 

Just as some people don't steal because its against the law, some people don't express their racist views because they don't want to be recognized as racist (and because it is also illegal). The referendum has brought racism out the closet but still the closet is only left ajar.

 

 

Again, pretty much this. The referendum in the UK and Donald Trump in the US have brought out all the closet racists. A lot of people feel it's a reaction to globalization and the changes made by globalization.

 

Some say immigration is wrong, some don't. Extreme minorities will always exists, slipping leaflets into your door. The majority, if you follow the process and legally enter the country and can contribute to the country with a learned skill, will generally tend to like you. It is those who do not that people take issue with.

 

A large number of immigrants are in fact NOT following the process to legally stay in the US. People who are not following the process are getting a free stay. The POTUS recently attempted to shield 5 million undocumented illegal aliens. There are currently close to 12 million illegal aliens in the US, most estimates say that number is actually higher. Their are 42 million total immigrants in the US, meaning %30 of immigrants are not following the rules.

 

The role of immigrants have changed from the original idea put forth of opportunity and the chance to make a bountiful life for yourself. Census reports(that's government statistics) show that even LEGAL immigrants take more advantage of the welfare system than native born Americans.

 

It does not make me a racist to think that the US vetting process is broken and that ANY country who takes in immigrants should only take those who can offer a skill to improve that country, not bring burden to it. All of these facts previously stated are drawn from government organizations, not some sort of anti-immigrant propaganda I am sure some of your will claim. Facts are not racist.

 

No one will argue that racism does not exist in some shape or form, of course, but the overtly racist are on the fringe of society. If you consider Pro-Leave for Brexit or supporting Donald Trump as making somebody overtly racist, you are ignorant.

 

Lets not forget to mention all of the social issues that come about from introducing a large variety of different cultures into a single, native born culture. That is a whole other discussion.

 

 

These are valid issues, clearly important and you've obviously done your research so I would not regard this as racist.

 

However (I'm not stating any facts here, just my impression, i'm probably way off) I was in Seattle recently and I've never seen so many homeless / drug addicts / veterans left to rot in my whole life (and the smell of weed on every corner), of course not all of America is like this but I think maybe there are other issues that are more important and if these were solved the immigrant problem could solve itself. In the same way I think if the NHS was ran by people who had a dang clue it wouldn't be such a mess either regardless of immigration.

 

Its certainly no good bringing in immigrants if the country is already a total mess but the total mess should be the priority.


In Topic: Now What For The UK ?

Yesterday, 06:25 AM

lemme chime in here as the swiss guy...

 

given the UK will soon be in a similar situation as switzerland when it comes to the EU (with more "weight" so to say because of the bigger size of the country, but a worse starting position because you got out of the EU while switzerland never was in)...

 

Most probably the UK will have to follow the same route of endless discussions and contracts with the EU to regulate trade and immigration. Prepare for some Looooong negotiations. And a lot of posing and delaying by the EU, just to make sure you feel treated like a second rate country.

As to immigration rules... either you join the schengen act again, which would of course make the reason a lot of UK citizen voted out void, or you will be treated like gambia, or china. Or switzerland, before we joined the schengen area, for that matter.

 

 

Unless the wake up call makes sure the EU rethinks how they interact with european countries not in the EU, trying to negotiate trade and immigration rules. Switzerland might profit that way a lot from the ruckus caused by the UK. Maybe in the future, when a country like switzerland wants "special treatment" from the EU, its no longer a "my way or the highway" stance from the EU...

 

 

What I would be worried about is the unity of the UK. Given staying in the EU was the main reasons the scotts are still in the UK, I would guess they would be organizing a new vote on that... and they need to do so fast, because that way they could stay in the EU while the rest of the UK (or maybe just england by that time) leaves it, while waiting too long means they need to rejoin (takes longer, and IDK if scotland (or NI for that matter) really reaches the financial minimums set by the EU for a joining country once the dust settles on the mess UK politicians got their country into).

 

it is all well and good if countries want to control their borders (on the basis of sound reasons) and still access the single market but the problem is that if 1 country gets this deal that then all the countries will want the same deal. 

 

At that point the issues becomes a lot more basic :

How do we deal with illegal immigration that will occur because each country now requires visas? 

Will we see a return to sporadic cash in hand work? For example: a German restaurant along the board in the Netherlands hires a German waiter for cash - no taxes.

How do small villages along the borders fare? They would loose 50% of their customers in their radial vicinity.

Will tourism take a hit?

How do you handle countries with a low minimum wage? That would give the country an unfair advantage, its citizens can no longer leave for country X to find better work. If the labour supply cannot move (easily) then the factories will move to the labour supply.

 

The EU solves these problems, its not perfect but a Europe without free movement is a PITA.

If there is a better model i would like to hear it.

 

Also, if we ever want a world where companies can't hide their cash in tax havens then we the big trading blocs so the big deals can be made.


In Topic: Now What For The UK ?

Yesterday, 02:53 AM

 

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.


Well done; you managed to completely misunderstand the misrepresent what I said... *slow clap*

I didn't make a single claim about immigration in the quoted text.
Nor, in the unquoted text, did I say that people who had problems with immigration are racists.

What I said was that the only people who are happy now are the racists.
You know, those people who have been putting leaflets through Polish people's doors telling them to go home.
Or, as reported on the news last night, the people who told a guy of Indian/Pakistani decent (based on skin tone and bone structure) that because we voted out he has to go home - the guy is Welsh. Was born in Wales. Has a Welsh accent.

Those people have been emboldened by the 'leave' vote as they now THINK that the majority is behind them; the fact they are racists means they are fucking morons anyway, so that belief makes sense from their twisted insane point of view.

So you are lying to yourself if you don't think people give two thoughts to the colour of your skin, because some people do. If they didn't they wouldn't be out there telling integrated 2nd and 3rd generation British people to 'go home' and 'get out because we voted out' and other less charming phrases because they aren't white.
(There are plenty of other stories about the place where people doing their job have been laughed at and told they have to go home now; or woke up the day of the result to find people shouting 'make Britain white' in connection to the leave vote. It doesn't take much to find evidence of people being racist idiots in connection with this vote.)

If you think otherwise then you are lying to yourself.
And we are talking 'Earth is the centre of the universe' level lying.

 

 

I would like to add that we only see overt racism from people who are "tough" and "hard" because they have the "balls" to behave this way. 

Just as some people don't steal because its against the law, some people don't express their racist views because they don't want to be recognized as racist (and because it is also illegal). The referendum has brought racism out the closet but still the closet is only left ajar.


In Topic: Now What For The UK ?

Yesterday, 01:57 AM

 

 


 

That's a real shitty move though, if I'm allowed to say.

 

Yep, you are, because it is.

I was on the remain side of the argument, but we've made our choice and now we should get on with it.

Boris has now gone on record as saying he wants to intensify EU co-operation.

It's slowly turning in to a situation where 72% of the people voted, but 100% of the people are going to be unhappy... (well, apart from all the racists; those guys now seem to think they have the country's backing to do what the fuck they like...)

 

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

 

I want you to define racism, how you view it in your mind, not a copy-past from the dictionary.

 

People love to shout racism like it means something. Half the time it doesn't. Nobody in their right mind condones racism as viewed on a moral or ethical level, NOBODY. Different cultures are expected to assimilate to their host country. Does that make people racist if that's what they expect?

 

 

It is not racist to want to control immigration for good well thought out reasons.

 

It becomes racist when large groups of people jump to the conclusion that the problems of the UK are due to immigration without looking at the facts. Why the sudden jump to immigration? Surely the spending decisions of the government are more likely to be a cause of stress to the NHS.

 

It is the sudden and uninformed willingness to blame immigration that is the racist part. Even if the evidence exists, no one is providing it.

 

Immigrants put more into the system than they take out. They are usually working age men who are less likely to take benefits. Public services are mostly stressed by the young and old (helpfully, some OAP's like to retire outside of the UK but perhaps they wont be able to do that for much longer).

 

It is also true that most leave votes come from areas practically untouched by immigration while the remain votes come from areas of high immigration. This is telling that it is just paranoia, fear and/or racism that makes people blame immigration.

 

On the note of "Working age men" and competitiveness in the north of England. If you think your entitled to not study/learn/adapt and still have a steady job for your entire life without any difficulty or future planning and then never get made redundant your living in the wrong century and you need to start acting like a responsible adult that learns and grows with age. There are exceptions, e.g. sick family makes it hard to move but for the majority they have the freedom to relocate or learn new skills, that's what everyone who ever made anything of themselves did/do.


In Topic: Now What For The UK ?

27 June 2016 - 03:40 AM

Yes, but there isn't any requirement for it to be done again.

There is a petition, which ironically was started by a leave campaigner when it looked like they might lose and has since be 'hijacked' by remainers, and while it isn't unheard of to set the requirements for a vote to pass this is generally done BEFORE the vote is held. (Also, parliament isn't required to pay attention to it, the wording on the site says 'consider' when it reaches a threshold.)

There is basically no legal requirement for a rerun of this vote.

The trajectory is pretty set at this point; House of Commons debates and votes on it; in theory at this point they can vote it down if they do not believe it is in the best interests of the country (chances are MPs in areas which voted against will carry this in to the House), but you have a 'will of the people' problem and doing so could be political suicide. Then it has to go to the House Of Lords; at which point they can also kick it back if they believe it isn't in the country's best interests - they aren't so tied to political issues/will of the people problems as those people are basically in for life - so in theory it could stop there... the outcome of which would be interesting on its own.

At which point, assuming someone decides to take the poisioned leadership of the Government and become PM, Article 50 could be invoked and the clock starts on exit. However, unless the votes before put a time line on it then the new PM/Government wouldn't have to do this right away, however that would piss off business, the MPs who wanted out, around 1/3 of the population and, of course, the EU.

Which is why the PM job right now is something I doubt anyone wants; if you don't Brexit you get a revolt of your party and people. If you do Brexit you get hammered at the next election. (Someone explained this much better than me, but it's why Boris and Gove weren't dancing in the streets on Friday...).

Welcome to limbo :D

 

Well said.

 

I think Boris and Gove were both in it for their careers and didn't believe leave would win - with a remain vote still putting them in a good position to win the next election.


PARTNERS