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#4978872 [Monthly Discussion] on RPG flaws - Month 5: "Battle Encounter Design"

Posted by on 11 September 2012 - 06:20 AM

All rpgs have taken the assumption that given a good gear and skill level they should be able to win a fight 100% of the time. They adopt the holy trinity concept (healer, tank, dps) and end up with 5-10 min boss fights where they follow a predetermined macro they read from a guide. These fights allow 0 player creativity. Same combo spammed every battle, same outcome every battle, they follow a battle chorography like bots. A bot would be more efficient than a human in this case, 0 lag, perfect coordination, 100% ability to dodge aoe effects.

What if this wasn't true ? What if battles were luck based. And chance to win was based purely on luck. Better gear or playstyle will increase the chance to win but there would always the risk to outright lose regardless of your actions because luck failed.

An example from dnd that doesnt follow determined battles:

3 kobolt mages (each deal 40 dmg with ice ray every 2 sec). Aggro immunity.

vs you (3 members)
Tank: 110 hp. 3shotted.
Dps/healer: 50 hp. 2 shotted. Healer: heals 20-40 hp. Dmg dealers kill kobolts in 2-4sec.

Party compositions.
a) Random : If you get lucky, you manage to spread the damage and win the battle. Else you lose.

b) 3 Rogues : stealth, stunlock them and kill them before they react. if you get spotted before you stun, you die.

c) Holy trinity : with luck, if you spread the dmg you defeat them.

What would this allow is more chaotic situations, a party member dies, and then your party has to improvise in order to win the fight. You lose a party member, they lose a party member too.

#4959131 [Weekly Discussion] on RPG Genre's flaws - Week 4 : "Exploration]"

Posted by on 14 July 2012 - 03:17 PM

What i hate in some rpgs are Towns.

You arrive at a new town after finishing a dungeon. There are 40-60 npcs in the town, each having 10 topics that are "white"
and you have to click them so that they get "grayed", every topic causes 3-6 bubble switches. Total 1000-2000 bubbles per town.

You try to comprehend what they say the first 5-10 bubbles, then you realise they are all useless mumble. blablabla it never ends.
From then on you spam skip all conversations, all quest text, all lore, Mute!!!

Really they tried to make those game "verbose" and in the end it ended "Muted" cause of their spam abuse.

Game offenders : Morrowind, Kingdom of Amalur, Wow.
Games immune to that feeling: Skyrim. Oblvion.

Morrowind/Kingdom of amalur: All npc in the town have the exact same bubble that you have to ask them, YES THE EXACT SAME TITLE.
You spam ask the same 30 topics about places / races until they get grayed at every npc.

Wow: Too many mini quests, instead of big quests with meaning.
All quests end as "kill 40 rats", "gather 30 herbs".

#4959129 Ways of forcing players to play together without risk of getting griefed?

Posted by on 14 July 2012 - 02:45 PM

Hi, i have the ABSOLUTE IDEA that can make all games GRIEF IMMUNE.

Bot multiplaying :

Forbid player from playing a multiplaying game, instead a bot is made that inpersonates the player,
the bot learns slowly by watching the player, and starts using the same moveset,
a heristic function could allow extracting the player goals, to allow behaving like him.

For example the player in his seperate machine is satan that has killed everyone, but
on the machines of all other players he is a kind loving person that helps everyone like jesus.

The bot will be immune to all behaviors that are considered griefing or not prethought by the programmers
and thus wont learn them.

There you go, you have your grief immune game.

Bot Battle efficiency: ( Symbol "->" : Pwn )

Hardcoded bots -> Humans -> Human emulating bots.

Hardcoded bots always play better than humans because they know all game rules and have 0 lag, thus they are gods.
Human emulating bots follow a flawed algorithm that a flawed human taught it (Only bots can play perfect).

1) Unlimited amount of players. Can clone same bot.
2) They are still living organisms, its like your dog, it cannot talk to you, but it can play with you,
and do some predefined commands.

1) Poor chat dictionary, bots would only be apply to communicate with 5-10 icons (happy, i help you, need help, i leave).

How will infuence the gameplay ? will it make it funnier ?

#4958283 Alternative minecraft

Posted by on 12 July 2012 - 01:15 AM

I've already written voxel engine, everything works nice, but I don't want this game to be a complete clone of minecraft.
Have you got a better idea for a voxel terrain game?

What you have is graphics,
I.e Just because you have written your game in z++, doesn't mean your game is a zounterstrike clone.
Just because you have "jump" button doesnt mean you are a mario clone.
Just because you have "move forward" button doesnt mean you are a packman clone.

Just thing your game idea completly from start, ignoring if the underlying implementation has a voxel terrain.
There are many genres, just chose one of them.

#4958279 elder scrolls online

Posted by on 12 July 2012 - 12:52 AM

it would suck.
no skills, only levels. (bethesda's advtange removed)
extreme time to level up. (bethesda's advtange removed)
Bad grapphics. (bethesda's advtange removed)
boring classes/skills/spells, (skill design was never bethesda's strong point).
boring enemies, (enemy design was never bethesda's strong point)
it will end as a crap wow clone and die.

#4958051 Weekly Discussion on RPG Genre's flaws [Week 3 : Attrition]

Posted by on 11 July 2012 - 09:05 AM

That would be attrition at the scale of a single combat. Once the battle is over, the player has lost nothing if they've overcome this, so I'd say this isn't attrition.

No you can make status effects last permanently, at checkpoints they recover from them, if the player gets unlucky to get hit by 10 deadly poisons between [c, c+1] he instantly dies and restarts from last checkpoint.

if you're where you shouldn't be and die, you start very far from there

Agree lets make a more detailed discussion.

1) What approach is better
A) "Balance trash minions based attritition for the route between 2 checkpoints [c, c+1]" or
B) "Balance trash minions based on that they will require 100% of your hp pool to defeat in 1 encounter" ? Afterwords you recover to full hp/mana.

Approach A: makes mobs too easy psychologically, possibly boring as you will only get to critical death state after 4 fights, with no imediate results to signify danger, that you failed as a player to adapt to them.

Approach B: enemies deal 90% of your hp attacks, almost 1shotting you. The healers have to watch the health pools, and get paniced, do i use my slow casting time healing spell, risking death? in approach A, healers spammed only 1 button (their slow heals). Now they have to decide.

Both approaches can lead to the same difficulty, however A is harder because you dont see the result, thus you aren't forced to play at your peek performance. At same arbitary point you "run out juice", which means that you instantly die totally unprepared and unable to do anything to fix it except restarting the game from last checkpoint.

Wow Priests: cannot exist in approach A as their playstyle gets tedius (1button)

Dnd3.5 Mages: cannot exist in approach B as mages are all about resource concervation, the mages deal 1000% more dmg than warriors, but they could only cast 1-4 spells in the whole dungeon. Thus a mage has difficult trash fights, where a warrior has a difficult boss fight. The mage can 1shot the final boss of the game in 1button but he will likely die to trash mobs.

Why did we chose attritution ?
1) Games were too easy without attritution, players would to start fight with full hp, thus
defeating the purpose of random trash encounters.

Well not according to wow psychologists.

Imagine a game that you only fight bosses one after another, challenging your party, is this fun ?
NO !!!

trash encounters make the game have a "relax" period that we dont have to worry about Fight Effectiviness. They are there to relax us from the big boss that we will meet in next battle and we have give all our resources in order to progress. But putting too match effort into attrition of those fights we are removing the "free period" of farming without caring about fight effectiviness, thus defeating the purpose of trash fights.

Questions to hear answers:

1) What approach is better
A) "Balance trash minions based attritition for the route between 2 checkpoints [c, c+1]" or
B) "Balance trash minions based on that they will require 100% of your hp pool to defeat in 1 encounter" ? Afterwords you recover to full hp/mana.

2) Is it fun for trash encounters to exist if they wont challenge your party ?

3) How much time should trash encounters consume for the players to relax, and how much for challenging encounters.
How do i mix them up. Following wow formula i.e Easy fights 5 min; Boss fight 5 min ; Easy Fights 5 min; Boss fight 5 min ;

#4954407 [Weekly Discussion: Week 2] RPG Genre's flaws - "Grinding"

Posted by on 30 June 2012 - 06:12 PM

1) Grinding is good if it is a player's ability, don't force him, let him play at his own pace, level as match as he wants. No level / stats caps. He is totally free to play as he wants, without any pressure. Without having to worry about breaking the system because he become too powerfull.
Solution: make sure that enemies remain at same difficulty regardless player level.
Example games : monster's den: book of dread, disgaia, ff8 (badly balanced at lv100 because of 9999 hp / dmg caps),
skyrim ( ok balanced at lv 60 )


stuck fighting numerous battles in a setting he's seen everything about (has looted everything, went through every tidbit of story the area could offer).

a) deus ex allowed stealth, to skip battles, it even gave you 80% monster xp for stealthing past them.
b) Final fantasy allowed run away, to completely skip battles.


The player here is forced into these battles for the sake of survival alone.

That is bad design.
if areas were created randomly it will reduce the "grindess".
In disgaia, you kill the same enemy, but he is at a different stage, with different allies, different items, stats, so it doesn't get boring.
Also loot gets better thus player is always rewarded.


Reduce the efficiency of battle rewards

Also a bad practise, 2000 enemies to advance in next level in wow. No thank you, bye.


Equipment economy

a) Becoming stronger from equipment is cool.
b) Equipment in those games is capped (after gaining the final item, there were no other items to become more powerful), thus money loses value and becomes inflated.
Solution: if equipment was randomly generated, scaled with player level and could be enchanted unlimited times by blacksmith to
have no limit in max stats then it would be perfect.

#4953748 Weekly Discussion on RPG Genre's flaws [The "Fight" Command]

Posted by on 28 June 2012 - 02:01 PM

to rephrase the problem i mentioned :
button mashing (repeating the same max dps combo on all enemies) comes from :
1) Bug: enemies are too easy and can be killed with that strategy.
a) solution: make enemies scale with player level. thus impossible to win with "fight" command.
2) Bug:enemies in most rpg games have the same or no weakness.
a) make enemies have 1 element they are extremely weak like 250-300% extra dmg, and 3 elements they are almost immune.
Correct Example: In diablo 1 "The hell mod" 75% of the enemies are fire immune, 75% are lighting immune, 75% are magic immune.
Most enemies can be damaged by only 1 element thus forces you to switch spells.
Some enemies are totally immune to all magic so you are forced to skip them if you are a mage, (can only be beaten by physical
damage which you dont have, or wait 1 min for your golem to kill them in melee).
3) Bug: Hp is easily replentishable. Thus players choose to win the battle as fast they can with max dps combo, and recover to full in 1sec after battle.
a) make it so it takes 20-30 secs to recover to full after battle, healers cannot use their spells after battle or if they do they will have to wait for their mana pool to get restored 20-30 sec.

Shinryu cannot be defeated with fight command because he is the same level as the party (level is capped at 99).
If i was lvl 300 with 280.000 hp and 90.000 damage and no damage cap, i will be able to defeat him in 1 hit thus i wouldn't need strategy, just "fight" command.

#4953702 Weekly Discussion on RPG Genre's flaws [The "Fight" Command]

Posted by on 28 June 2012 - 10:52 AM

Bug 1 in your logic:
Crappy menu system forces them to use the fight command.
You said it yourself, it is 300% faster to choose the fight command.
So why choose the slower method of manually inserting comamnds.

Solution A: Throw the menu into the garbage bin, and use wow's interface + realtime combat.

Solution B: You allow button mashing but it takes a longer time to finish the battle e.g 300-500% more time.

New problem:
The player will use the cookie cutter max dps combo, regardless of enemy type to minimize the battle time.
New bug: All enemies are defeated with the same way, max damage. Max damage is the fastest option,
to minimize battle time. Slows, stuns, cc, hp, armor, heals are all a waste of time
if you aren't forced to use them or instantly die.

Solution B: So you want to completely counter the above problem right ?

B1) Monsters level up with you, and are as hard to beat always.
B2) Make Monsers ignore player stats, player level, and 1-shot you if you dare not have a [strategy guide] with you.

1) Vampires permanently level drain you, while lv 1 you deal 0 dmg, have 0% chance to hit, and die in 1 hit.
counter: cast spell that protects from level drain, wear equipment with protection from level drain.
2) Beholders instantly kill you in 1hit with finger of death / disintegrate.
counter: cast death ward, item with death ward, protection from beholder rays.
3) Medusa can pemanently petrify you and kill you in 1hit.
counter: anti-petrift spell/ equipment.
4) Undead/Werewolf/trolls never die, and reanimate after 3 sec unleash you use holy element/ silver weapon/ fire / acid Element.
5) Spiders can permanently decrease your stats, your lvl 99 character will then die in 1 hit from a lv1 rat.
6) Insert God's Name can permanently transfer you to a maze/or another plane.
counter: restart the game from the beginning wasting 90 hours, or use load game hack if you are a nab that doesnt play permadeath mode.
7) Fire doggies permanently destroy your items, making next boss fight impossible, and require to restart your game.
8) Liches permanently paralyze you until you die or until you throw your computer out of the balcony because you got bored waiting
them to kill you with 1 dmg attacks.

New problem C:

Players have to waste 10 min before each room, preparing their equipment to have the right 100% resists to enter the room,
else instantly die. Then the battle will last 1 min. Total fun: 5%.
Other problems: random god didnt grace you with that equipment.
A) restart game
B) load game hack until you survive it. 5% chance to dodge * 5% * 5% * etc = 0.0000*% chance of surviving = 400 game loads
(thats must be really fun)

Everything dies in 1 hit, hp is useless, heals are useless (you are gonna die in 1 hit anyway, you wont manage to heal).
Warrior's dont exist as a class, only ranged classes exist. The game is a boring prison jail attempt.
Kite for 5 min, perform 1 autoattack, kite 5 min, perform 1 autoattack. Gratz you won a simple monster pack in 30 min,
now move to the next (see diablo 3 inferno).
You attempt to break the laws a stupid nerd game designer made, instead of having fun.

Why have we ended up in this mess.
Because you attempted to make it nintendo hard.

Because You can always recover to full hp after battle in 0 sec.
A) Potionspaming. Free instant full heals.
B) Hp is a renewable resource.

Solution D:
Allow the player to play as he wishes.
Score his actions:
he wishes to be a potion spam hacker? ok take -score for each item used.
he wishes to stay on same stage for too long ( thus allowing mana / hp to recover to full after each battle ? -score.
he wishes to use the same attacks repitively (because they are better) ? -score (tony hawks combo formula to detect it).
he died (thus used load game hack commamd))? -score
Hit by status effect that ought to be instant kill? -score

he defeated boss? +score.
he killed all monsters? +score.
he picked all items ? +Score.
he found secret rooms ? +score.
he was undetected ? +score.
he killed no monsters? +score.
stage conditions fullfilled ? +score
first time completed the stage? ++++++++++++++++++score

By the end of the stage, his score :
defines what items / xp / achievements he gets.
Worst player: 25% xp. Normal: 100% xp Best : 200% xp

#4926826 Tile based multi-user RPG possible?

Posted by on 30 March 2012 - 06:41 PM

1) how about allowing multiple characters on same tile.
2) how about tiles not being your limitation. E.g characters dont move 1 tiles per turn but 0.1 tile per turn,
thus 1 tile could be divided in many fragments.
3) how about saving position in float variable ? for the above reason. instead of integer.

#4926276 Should pvp be glasscannon like ?

Posted by on 29 March 2012 - 03:00 AM

I forgot to mention :
Tne best advantage of glasscannon games is Escape power and Fear.

1) Escape power: escaping here matters, because it is your only survival. When an enemy blitzcrank chases you, he can use his ranged spell to pull you to him instantly, killing you in 0sec, you have to evade that. If you run straight to your tower you will die, because he will predict your movement pattern and hit you with his skillshot. You have to change your movement path (e.g running to the right) as he fires his skillshot to evade it, but doing so will mean he will have time to get closer to you since he runs in a straight pattern but you just "dodge to the right", if he reaches close to you, you will die from his punch.
Wow doesnt make escapes meaningfull, you can press 1 button (vanish) and escape combat wherever you want, this isn't pvp !!!

2) Fear: Irelia and lee sin chase jax, jax uses "Ghost" a movement speed summoner spell to run away faster and escape their gank.
They deal damage, jax uses his ult to survive their ranged damage [irelia ult]. Jax successfully manages to reach his tower, irelia afraid of the tower will stop for 0.1sec(reluctant to towerdive), jax smells this and jumps on irelia activating his dodge and becoming immune to dmg, irelia loses 60% hp in 1.5 sec. Irelia and lee sin are both scared and run away. Jax kills irelia after another 1.5 sec. Lee sin totally useless afk nab instead of fighting back runs away. Jax jumps on lee sin killing him after 3 sec. Wow cannot achieve this feeling.


There are various protections, with their own flaws. Maybe not visible to enemies unless you are attacked or they have special perception abilities. That way you can look unprotected but spank them when they attack.

I like that since they will able to control enemy emotions. Nice suggestion.
Should everyone be able to do that ? for example buying "Potion of deception" making your hp bar decrease to 10-20% hp after 10 seconds [but it lies].

More work can be used to make an effect more powerful, e.g. a level one can spend 2 hours pouring energy into an artifact to make a 1-shot wonder.

You mean charged spells ? if for example a mage gets 5-6 seconds of cast time uninterrupted he deserves to 1shot opponents because they were afk.

A clever player can cast a spell that deflects or changes the effect of an attack, rather like counters etc used in fighting arcade games.

Seems a great suggestion. From our discussion it seems fair everyone to be able to dodge. But what about counter? should everyone be able to do that? or should it be class specific ? e.g mages counter only spells and warriors counter only melee.

@Iron Chef Carnage

I like to see a "win" that's less than killing a dude. A one-hit "victory" that just teleports the target far away on the map, or stuns him, or otherwise neutralizes him without straight-up killing the guy, can have all the tactical value of a kill in a respawn-based arena

I like your suggestion.
1) How about healers being able to heal enemies, but after they heal much they pacify them turning them permanently into a harmless critter. The problem with this approach is that sometime, the player will get control of their character back.
b1) force player critters to return to their respawn point to be cured.
b2) ask help from their teamates to kill them [suicide] for faster respawn.
b3) ask a priest to dispel them 10 times to cure.
b4) return to normal after 2 min. You just need to hide in a bush or behind a tree.

#4926041 Should pvp be glasscannon like ?

Posted by on 28 March 2012 - 10:46 AM

in wow i care only about maximizing 1vs1 pvp power. Why care about teamwork ? arathi basin, eye of the storm is all about 1vs1 pvp.
Healing others is needless in 2vs1 pvp, you outnumber the opponent, thus you will win regardless of your actions. If your teamate dies because you didnt heal, just say "good riddance", i didnt need you anyway, you were a burden, i could have won him alone.

Since you spoke about teamplay in 2vs2 if you use heal, i as a warrior would outdps you, thus your heals will be useless, and you do no damage thus you are healing your opponents not yourself because you dont do damage while casting healing spells.

From your playstyle as a feral druid i must question your mathematical skills. Why waste 3sec in doing 40% heals when you could have done 40-50% damage? Its just math, you cant heal and damage at the same time, by using healing spells you went afk to prolong the battle a few seconds, your death would come sooner or later. Damage can heal people to full if the battle ends, Heals dont kill people when your hp bar is full. Which means that damage serves both roles of "Damage dealer" and "healer", but "healer" serves only 1 role. By playing a hybrid playstyle you are gimping yourself in being "bad at everything", other specialised classes would do things better.

You haven't given me a single reason why healing spells should be in a feral druid action bar.
You cant outheal my damage, when i am on top of you, so why use it ?

#4925998 Should pvp be glasscannon like ?

Posted by on 28 March 2012 - 09:09 AM

You mentioned aim. Ok lets suppose we make all attacks dodgeable skillshots.
1) the good thing is the ability to dodge all spells, attacks depending on the player skill, not on character stats.
2) the bad thing is that crowd control spells mean instant death. If 1 stun hits it will disable movement, thus all spells will become auto-hit. Even headshots are easy against immobile opponents.
With this addition "Whoever presses 1 button wins" becomes "Whoever hits with crowd control wins".

Druid means feral druid, since the other specs are against the druid lore
[ no reason to play balance druid if elemental shaman can do more dmg and shock. ]
A feral druid has limited mana, meaning that even if he spends his whole mana bar with the skills you mentioned he will deal 5% of warriors hp, because warrior gets healed from stuns, roots, etc. Also heals can only be used outside of combat, because -healing debuffs mean that you heal less dmg than enemy deals thus it is an illegal action.

I see your point, dying without the ability to dodge attacks will be frustating.

Lets say with the addition of skillshots, you "dodge" the first attack, then you kill the enemy in 1 hit if he doesn't dodge it. Will this new pvp mode be the ideal form of playing (as fun is concidered) ?

I am glad that someone has played "league of legends" and can understand what 1-hit pvp means. It is still skill-based even though enemies die in 1 hit.

#4925932 Should pvp be glasscannon like ?

Posted by on 28 March 2012 - 03:09 AM

I would like to ask if pvp should be build around "whoever attacks first wins" or with more balanced approach like wow.

A) Whoever attacks first wins :
Example Glasscannon mages at lv 6 in League of legends. Everything dies in 1 hit. <Annie> at lv 6 can blink and instant kill <le-blanc> in 1 button press, but <le-blanc> could have pressed the attack button before annie blinked, instantly killing her when she comes in range (after blink). So a skilled annie should have blinked after le-blanc pressed attack button on a minion.

1) prevention is important: Since everything dies in 1 hit, you know that if someone attacks first you will instantly die, so you watch spell ranges, skillshots, buy wards. Support champions become usefull because they can buy wards and grant vision of area.
2) Lucky players can go 1vs5 and get penta without losing 1 hp: example fed karthus/fiddlesticks/trynda/yi against nabs.
3) Class imbalance doesnt matter because everything dies in 1hit. This allows more class divercity. You can win even if you have inferior gear, or are an inferior player.

1) player skill relies only who jumps first on others.
2) battles can last 0 sec [ opponent dies in exactly 1 hit ]
3) melee champions are useless in group battles.
4) can cause rage, trolls, negative attitude.

note: blablabla you can buy armor, but i dont consider it as an option in my analysis in order to demonstrate what "whoever attacks first wins" playstyle means.

Another example is vannilla wow, even if battles lasts longer e.g 6 seconds you will be stunned 100% of your time and just die without being able to do a single thing [i forbid pvp trinket for this mode].

B) Tanky players like in wow cataclysm. Battles take 15-20 seconds to end.

1) The effect of a battles can change even if you get jumped. Skill plays a more important role here.
2) you can "play" before you die.

1) nabs wont be able to beat skilled players.
2) class are too homogenized. Why should i play a druid when a warrior does the same job and without having to heal ? It seems the warrior is better, he wins in pvp without having to run away like a coward and he has a much easier playstyle. And the druid gets no rewards for playing a harder class.
3) if enemy has better gear, it just gives the illusion you have a "chance" to fight back. Why not instant die in 0sec (as mercifull death) to avoid watching the 15 second pvp fight.

#4920652 You can actually do that? Creating open-source fan-made games legally.

Posted by on 09 March 2012 - 06:46 AM

1) not legal because it uses the name "mario". if it was called "plumber brothers" it will be legal. Also not copy paste the same art.
2) legal. blizzard does this in all its games, 100% copy pasting other games example wow.