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Member Since 15 Dec 2001
Offline Last Active Today, 03:52 PM

Posts I've Made

In Topic: Now What For The UK ?

Today, 08:02 AM

ChaosEngine, on 24 Jun 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:
Fucking idiots. A campaign based on racism, fear and ignorance.

It was based on democracy and independence. People didn't like Merkel telling them what to do. It's not that 51% of the country's racist...

Unfortunately... no.. it wasn't really.

There was a LOT of fear mongering and dishonesty (for example, see £350m/week BS) on both sides, with a health dose of 'immigrants are the problem' thrown in... it was not a campaign based on facts or balanced arguments.

The population has been primed for this for some time too; the press is very right leaning and for the last 10 or more years we've had a near constant narrative of "EU is the enemy!", "Immigrants are terrible!" and the image of the plucky Brit vs the big bad EU... and for many people this will have driven their desire to leave.

So while 51% of the country isn't racist, a proportion is (reports of a guy standing outside a school with a high Muslim population making victory signs at the parents, or the terrorist who murdered the MP last week) and some where pushed in that direction by news stories for years, combined with fear campaigns about countries joining the EU which implied there were about to join and that 4 million people would becoming to the UK right away.

(We also had the fun of the 'leave' campaign using images of people who weren't in favour of leave to prop up their side... in one case the person in question took to facebook to point out it was used without his permission, and that he was 'just about in' and got utterly torn to pieces in the comments... not the people who misused his image, no, that was fine, but his saying otherwise? tear him down!)

There was, in this mess of bullshit, good reasons on both sides to vote either way, I've had good and productive discussion with people at work on the subject who could state their case without racism entering in to it, but that was rarely heard - both sides tried to BS their way to the result they wanted.

And then we have cockwombles who've said today "I voted leave, but I didn't think we'd leave, so I didn't think my vote would matter and now I'm really worried"... one such person having been interviewed on the BBC.. which is basically "I normally vote Labour but I voted Tory because I feared an Labour + SNP coalition" all over again. Don't get me wrong, I won't have a go at someone for voting "out", but jesus Christ how thick do you have to be to do that?!?

So lets not try and make out this was some high class debate; it was nasty and it will have left lasting scars across communities and families... in one case one family has lost their mother because of the nastiness which has been brought up. (Despite the 'revolution without a shot fired' quote attributed to Farage...)

In Topic: Now What For The UK ?

Today, 07:46 AM

When the UK parliament will realize they could lose millions of workers they will lower the £35K limit.... That's the same kind of reason Swiss does not expels millions of non-Swiss workers..

Ah, but that depends on the population - immigration and population control was made a major factor in this campaign and has been for some time.

If the people still see it as a problem, and this assumes we even have control of the borders, then stopping people will be a requirement even if we are losing then as well... of course, that assumes people even want to come here still, right now regardless of how correct it is, the perception of many is the UK population doesn't want them here.

But then, I'm not sure I want to be here either... we'll see how it pans out before I make my choices...

In Topic: Now What For The UK ?

Today, 07:21 AM

I guess both UK and EU will rule something about that, 2 years are more than enough.

Sure, but would you want to spend 2 years with that hanging over you?

As it stands, today, if you aren't from the EU and aren't earning over £35Kpa you can and will be removed from the country; I know of two teachers this has already hit.

For reference, for 2014;
Mean pay : £29, 172
Median pay : £23,556

So, if an non-EU member was married to someone from the UK today one of you would have to be earning over £35Kpa for that person to be able to enter in to the country - someone I work with had to prove his income so that his wife was allowed entry as she was from a non-EU state.

Depending on what is agreed you could end up with the same treatment for people currently from the EU; while you wouldn't be kicked out there is a chance you could be refused entry again if, for example, you went on holiday.

Of course someone people I know, from the EU, are considering leaving anyway; I don't blame them, I'm not sure I'd want to stay in a country where it feels like 1/3 of the population don't want you to be here...

In Topic: Now What For The UK ?

Today, 07:11 AM

Unlikely. Sure you won't be as integrated with the EU, but that itself can give you some leverage over it. Whether the UK's in the EU or not, it's going to want the UK's money to continue functioning, and will be willing to give special concessions to make sure that happens.

The thing is, we have a model for this in Norway, who trade in the EU and have to comply with the rules for many things. They have no vote on the rules which are passed but have option to ignore some things. I do not see us getting a significantly better deal than that because while they might want trade they won't want trade at the cost of EU member states (plus, ya know, we've just blown a load of political goodwill at this point..).

So, as it stands, we'll probably end up paying in about 2 billion a year for 'free trade' with little to no say on the rules.
(I have made that number up, but I reached it by looking at what Norway pays per capita, multiplying by the UK population, then deciding that £7.4 billion was insane (and also what was left once I dissected the rest of our "£350 million a week" figures) and scaled it back massively, so it feels legit to me.)

(The £350 million figure is also fun because, ignoring if that's the true amount or not, the massively implied thing from 'leave' was "lets spend this on the NHS", which was clearly not going to happen because that money is required to pay for the things the EU already pays for.. so we are probably looking at £100 million a week, which would just about plug the NHS gap today, however it won't in 2 years when that money has become available, and that assumes that nothing else comes out of it... on a related note, I'm looking forward to the tax cut which will be paid for from that £100 million/week...)

In Topic: Now What For The UK ?

Today, 05:01 AM

Yeah.. for reference... UK != England...