I would say I agree, but I couldn't read your entire post without getting a splitting headache...so I agree with everything you say up until about "I really hate to say..."

I'll read the rest when my headache goes away.

Yup, I don't like it either. It's just like every standard design of forums, portals or CMS.

Quote:or they should have had everything set in place for an alternate site template (color scheme) before they rolled it out.

Agreed, but from what I saw they got "found out" rather than wanted to announce it. Once the cat was out of the bag I think they just decided to reveal all [lol]

I've been using the www2 version for about 6 weeks now, you can get used to it given time...!

Jack

You said the same thing when you upgraded Windows 3.1 to Windows 95.

"Hey, the icons look different. I hate this. Make it the old way!"

Get over it. It's much better than before. You'll get used to it.

it's always so easy to chalk somthing up to 'you just dont like change', well sure I might get used to it, but that doesn't make it better. The associated image I have of GDNet is now different, the site looks like every other forums site now, it has no character, and it is clearly doing this to try and shake the 'recluse developer' stigma; gets a big thumbs down from me.

and i'll have you know I loved the switch from 3.1 to 95! it was fricken awesome, what with all the new graphical capabilities.

I hate to say it but everybody complains when something changes. I knew when I found out they planned on changing the design that 90% of the visitors wouldn't like it, regarldess of what it looked like. I find it a refreshing change from the old, ugly site. The old layout was hard on the eyes for me, and this new one is much easier to read. Ah well, when they get some other themes out then I guess we can decide on what looks best :)

so what you are saying is that because apparently 90% of people hate when somthing changes then a change for the worse is just as good as a change for the better?

well if that is the case then any change is bad. if you have 90% of people complaining about somthing, then you have clearly ticked them off.

if i go to a site and i see the standard PHPBB colors and some goofy icons, i leave it as fast as i can. Why? I judge that it is just another forum thrown up in 2 hours time, it doesnt look custom, and the color scheme is overused.

I happen to like dark color schemes (look at www.morningswrath.com) so the new scheme is the opposite end of my spectrum and to me, it just makes me not want to come to the site.

Gotta love it when paying customers are told to 'Get over it'.

yeah really, i realize my whole (40 some-odd) bucks a year doesnt amount to much, but they could have AT LEAST made sure an alternate template was availible when they rolled out (if anyone tells me to go to www2 i'll sock em right in the eye! =D) AND that our journals worked under both templates, as it stands my journal is broken, so i am definetly not pleased.

and in addition to that, I would be willing to pay $100.00+ a year if the general trend around here was that when people speak out for change, change happens. But from what I have seen over my years of being here, when a bunch of people (ususally regulars) don't like somthing, (our way or the highway) is usually rolled out, not a very good practice IMO.

GameDev.net has been very generous to me and my team in the past and for that I am very greatful, but all I am asking for is that the will of the majority be served. A poll and a thread in the lounge mentioning it, here would be a good place to start

Quote:
yeah really, i realize my whole (40 some-odd) bucks a year doesnt amount to much, but they could have AT LEAST made sure an alternate template was availible when they rolled out (if anyone tells me to go to www2 i'll sock em right in the eye! =D) AND that our journals worked under both templates, as it stands my journal is broken, so i am definetly not pleased.

Let me talk a little something about management..

This design originally started back in the April/May timeframe. The core was done within 2 weeks, after about 3 weeks of around 9 prototype designs done by Mike and I. After that core was done, however, nobody on staff did any work despite my complaining that it needed to get done..

So, September comes around.. nothing. October..we show it off at AGC, and tell people it will launch in another month or two. Dave mentions we should have an alternate black theme for the launch. I agree, but here it is November and *still* nobody implemented one. We're all too busy taking care of other issues.

Given that this design was originally thought of two years ago, in terms of us needing to do it, and that we've had this design sitting on www2 since June, something had to be done to get it kicked into gear. I've learned that sometimes there's only one way to get things moving and get people on the team to care about a particular project - throw it into the fire.

So here you go. I switched the virtual directories last night and the design is thrown into the fire. It's not 100% complete, but it's close. We don't have an alternate theme, but I already know that others are working on it. But what matters is that this design has become the team's priority now, as it should be. Instead of one of us working on it, we will now work as a team to ensure that this design is complete and functional.

Yeah, you're right. We SHOULD have had an alternate theme available, but none of my requests were being done related to the site's design, and an alternate theme was one of them. So now it's the main site and everyone on our team HAS to deal with it or risk issues with our visitors.

In any case, that was my thinking on launching as-is. I don't have the time to do all the work I've done on this design, as I have many other responsiblities for this site, community, and industry besides my life and my regular job. I needed my team to make it a priority when everything short of direct threats were not working. So here you go. Relax on the critiques.. you will have a dark theme available to use. It's just going to take a little time to get developed.

Quote:
but all I am asking for is that the will of the majority be served. A poll and a thread in the lounge mentioning it, here would be a good place to start

Sometimes the majority doesn't know everything they think they know. I've mentioned more reasons for the design change in ApochPIQ's journal entry about his thoughts on the design.

There are times we bend over backwards for the majority, but there are times we just can't do that for reasons unknown to the general public.

And actually, I'd like to see if it's the majority complaining in a week. I don't even think it's the majority now. I think the dislikes are just the most vocal, as always (I've had about 40 emails from people saying they love it). I'll place my bets on it that the complaints will be a minority in a week. This design is much different than the community is used to, and it will take time to warm up.

I definetly sympathize with the situation, though I never imagined that things were as bad as they seem to be with getting things done at GDNet.

As you might imagine my situation with game development is not oh so different; getting people to do things somtimes takes threats of bodily injury ;)

You've made your point, and this is basically what I wanted, if there is one thing I cant stand it is a 'because we said so' answer to an outcry; so ++ to you on handling this matter like you did here.

I still think that if 'throwing somthing into the fire' is what it takes to get somthing done at GDNet, coupled with 'the concequences be damned', and you still want to charge people for GDNet+ accounts, then that has to change, even if it means upping the price.

I hope that the new template turns out to be all you say and more (the big issues i see are still using colors under the impression of one template will look bad under another (and the default at that)) I definetly dont want this site to look like every other (crappy) forum board online (a concequence of the default subsilver style of PHPBB) and I hope that as the design morphs a bit (since it now seems apparent that everyone is playing the 'fix' game and not the 'design' game) and takes on a fairly unique style we can call our own. While somone wouldn't suppose it from my last few posts, I take great pride in being a GDNet+ member, and having this be my main area of development information for my games.

Anyhow, I'll draw back the fire and see where things go. Thanks again for addressing this.

Quote:so what you are saying is that because apparently 90% of people hate when somthing changes then a change for the worse is just as good as a change for the better?

No, what I'm saying is that anytime something major changes 90% of the people are going to hate it; thus it is useless to listen to criticism until people have had a chance to adapt.

If the staff were to listen to every single complaint about the change right here and now, then no change will happen: for better or worse.

If, a few months from now, people still hate the design then I would agree that something needs to be looked at, but for right now the priority should be to adress issues that are obvious (such as the brightness, which it appears they have fixed), and focus on the "it sucks" later.

no... you are not taking into account 'admiting defeat' if people genuinely dont like a change, but no change comes (to fix that change) then they soon admit defeat and shut up (banging your head against the wall forever with no change only gives you a sore head) so it is important to examine the situation carefully and not write off blanket statements such as (everyone hates change). If the site changed to a darker shade or changed the main color blue to say 'green' I would not care _AT ALL_, I would say, hmm. I wonder why they changed their primary color.

But no my problem is that the site no longer looks like a developer made it, it looks like a windowsXP or MSN Instant messanger and PHPBB rippoff, couple this with the REASONS for the change, and you have one mad me.

So keep that in mind when you think 'everyone' hates change. but as I said, for now I am done critiquing the site, I am going to give it some time and see how it changes, if after a while it is still in what I consider a horrible state, then I will need to take it from there.

Quote:no... you are not taking into account 'admiting defeat' if people genuinely dont like a change, but no change comes (to fix that change) then they soon admit defeat and shut up (banging your head against the wall forever with no change only gives you a sore head) so it is important to examine the situation carefully and not write off blanket statements such as (everyone hates change). If the site changed to a darker shade or changed the main color blue to say 'green' I would not care _AT ALL_, I would say, hmm. I wonder why they changed their primary color.

I never said they should never change it if people never start to like it. Hell, when I first saw it I didn't like it either, then after a few moments it looked nice to me. If, after people give it a chance, nobody likes it then yeah they should probably change it back.

I don't think I ever said they shouldn't admit defeat if defeat needs to be admited.

EDIT: In fact, I think that admiting defeat is one of the best features of the human race. As a species, we should be able to admit that we are wrong. However, doing such a thing this early would be...just stupid.

I agree with EDI. I'm all for change etc. Just not... not another white/blue website! it looks like PHPBB... it's to bright for me =/ I don't like the other sites like devmaster, just look at it...

Oh well as soon as they give me a choic I'll take it ^^

oh and EDI, why not use a CSS to reformat your journal the way YOU want it to be? :D you've used one before...

Quote:No, what I'm saying is that anytime something major changes 90% of the people are going to hate it; thus it is useless to listen to criticism until people have had a chance to adapt.

Those 90% that complain, complain for a valid reason. There was entirely no reason from my point of view (and most of the other 90%) that the site needed to go under a major change. If this project has been in the works for 2 years now, and we've went through the site, beating it all to hell, what justified the reason for such a dramatic switch?

I saw no reason to flip on the light switch.

As I've said before, there are reasons why this needed to be done that we do not need to discuss. Much of it is related to business, branding, and image. I'm sorry, but GameDev.net is not an entirely open book. I've laid out my reasons for these changes in these comments for EDI's journal and in ApochPIQ's journal. We would appreciate some respect and understanding for these reasons, while recognizing that tweaking continues and a darker theme will be on its way.

Of course, Khawk has to appeal to those noobs and "professionals" so that he can get more money! The black makes it look like its unprofessional, but khawk wants money so he has to go with "professional", doesnt matter if people hate it or not...it will bring him MONEY.

Money is a reality, but not the goal. The fact about money is that more money will bring a better site - and honestly we've seen the effect of that already, just like any other business. Our goal, however, is to provide a complete trade and educational resource for the entire games industry.