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EDI

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Well, that settles it, ever since I began Project 2 there has been a marked increase in negative feedback, I am not sure why but I have a couple of guesses.

Anyhow, It is no longer enjoyable to keep everyone up-to-date here, so instead I will keep my development notes and statements elsewhere.

I appologize to those who are genuinely interested in Project 2 and it's development but I have come to the conclusion that for some people I can do no right, and that my methods should be negatively questioned and attacked especialy by those who are least qualified to make such assertions.

This journal is closed until further notice,

Good luck with your projects.

Raymond Jacobs
Owner - Ethereal Darkness Interactive
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/me has a big question mark over his head.

/me reads the comments from the previous entry.

/me still has a big question mark over his head.


As I recall, you thought the dancing duckies in my game looked horrid. As a response to your negative review, should I have shut down my journal and refused to allow people to look at Duck Tiles ever again?

Heckno. All feedback is important. Laudatory feedback is the least important, as it imparts no suggestions for improvement. Intensely negative feedback is better, as it at least can point you in a proper direction. Mildly negative feedback is worth its weight in gold, as it can point you in a clear direction for improvement.

In short, grow a thicker skin. IMHO, your new pictures looked great. Much better than MW, actually. I was interested in seeing how the stuff would piece together given its rather odd lighting, so I was withholding further comment until then.

If you received constructive criticism, thank the criticizer greatly for it. If you received destructive criticism with no suggestion for improvement, then ignore it. If you received only laudatory criticism, then and only then should you consider shutting down further feedback, as it is of no worth.

Now get back to work. You've got a game to write, goldurnya.

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Raymond...

Grow up. I don't understand why you think that people are attacking you, or how you can fathom that you will be in a community where everyone will love everything you do and every decision you make. If that's what you want, you need to become a hermit and keep to yourself.

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I say keep the journal open EDI. It's fun to read your progress on Project 2.

PS -- I'm going to purchase MW soon, it looks like a really cool game :)

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Yeah, seriously Raymond. People are interested, and want to read about your progress. I really don't understand where you are getting this negative vibe from. If you could show me more examples, than maybe I would reconsider, but please, suck it up and prove them wrong.

Also, it looks to me like the last 5 journal entries after yours are mocking you. Because, you know, you are being absolutely-freaking-rediculous. So rediculous, I was forced to use tmesis.

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I must admit what I've read sounds more like constructive criticism than personal attacks.

I'd find it tough to be sympathetic anyway, when you're the person that announced: "I absolutely hate the new color scheme (and the icons for that matter)." That sounds a bit more like an attack.

Come back, you're a valuable member, and I honestly can't understand what's made you leave.

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Since noone can seem to understand why im closing my journal, I decided to put together a few exerpts.

my thoughts are in >>

Quote:


Don't get me wrong Raymond, I think you're on the right track and I applaud you for all your efforts to work independently and complete projects. But don't expect everyone be fawning over you because shrinkwrapped a couple DVD cases for Morning's Wrath. I for one don't think that's an actual selling point for a product.
>>sweet begining? sour ending.


Personally I think not getting the opinions from the other members of the teams makes them feel left out. They aren't monkeys doing whatever you say, they are a part of the team.

>>so my leading methods supose that I treat my team members like monkeys?


Finally, EDI, that call out was certainly not necessary in a public forum.

>>people deciding what is neccisary on my own journal for me?


I (and almost every other human on thew face of the planet) will pay as minimum as possible. Not a very good idea. Why are you so focused on this stuff rather than making your game?

>>gee, I don't know, perhaps beaucse our three years of work has grossed $1k in total


Your last two ideas have been fairly bogus, Raymond. Stick to programming, and get someone else to do your business for you.

>>lovely way to put it, thanks a bunch.


I wish people (especially indie game developers) would spend more time making games that people want to play, than coming up with ideas to keep people from playing.

>>maybe if you had your game pirated a bunch you would feel diferently?


I concur. Requiring a network connection is a very inelegant solution.

>>bull, it is one of the only fairly safe solutions of today


the [ code ] and/or [ source ] tags are your friend =D

>>I swear this guy stays up nights waiting for me to do somthing he doesnt like


I just wanted to point out the interesting little thing in the last 2 screen shots, the first shot shows 333 FPS, and the new one shows 111 FPS.

>>vultures...


22 copies only? Yeak, that sucks!

>>thanks! i didin't know



You're trying too hard with the name. Either that or you're not trying hard enough... again.

>>yeah, you know me, I just never try


I apologize for pissing on your parade, but all these little random posts of "clues" are getting kind of old now...
>>I would say all your random comments are getting old.



For those of you who think these things are harmless, well I guess you would need to be in my shoes; people are being too critical, and Laz has been the king of crap-posters here.

I am looking into getting another journal, loacted on my site, an optimal situation will be to grant certain users ability to reply.

So that people who are interested in seeing the game progress can participate, and so I can keep the people who just like to troll, out.

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If I could throw my opinion into the pot:

I don't think that alot of the points were cruel, its just the way they were executed. If I were to say:

Quote:

I think the splatting technique is a little weird, I would go with <blah>


That would be all and good constructive critism. Now if I were to go off and say:

Quote:

Slatting is a completly idotic way of doing it. Stop wasting your time trying to so something like that and do <blah> instead.


That is just blatently harsh.

I believe very strongly in freedom of speech and I dont disagree with what the repliers, expecially Laz, has had to say. I think that taking it to a point where its diragotory* is just plain cruel.

P.S And on a personal note am VERY shocked by the way some of the lucky GDNET+ members have been acting. Publicly trying to poke fun at Raymonds expense is so un-needed and completly un-expected. It's like twilight zone here on gamedev.

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lol

most of those were my quotes. That makes me laugh.

You take everythign said and turn it into a personal attack, dude. A lot of what is there are extremely legitimate responses to things you have said, and pretty good ones too.

Look man, it's this simple. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. You aren't God's gift to game programming. You aren't the most important person in the world. There are other people's opinions that can be voiced and discussed. You're taking them all as personal attacks against you. The only person doing anythign wrong here is you. We offer critisism to help you out and you attack us.

I'm going to comment on only the quotes above that were mind, and my response to your response.

Quote:
Personally I think not getting the opinions from the other members of the teams makes them feel left out. They aren't monkeys doing whatever you say, they are a part of the team.

>>so my leading methods supose that I treat my team members like monkeys?


I never said you treat your team members like monkeys. Did I say "Raymond, stop treating them like monkeys." If you read it that way, then I apologize, I was just trying to make a point, that they have opinions that matter too.

Quote:
I (and almost every other human on thew face of the planet) will pay as minimum as possible. Not a very good idea. Why are you so focused on this stuff rather than making your game?

>>gee, I don't know, perhaps beaucse our three years of work has grossed $1k in total


If someone offered you a new computer for $100 or $1,000, your choice, which would you pick? And don't answer just to try to back yourself up. I don't know anyone who would pay more than the minimum. It's that simple. I don't know HOW you took that as an attack against you.

Quote:
I wish people (especially indie game developers) would spend more time making games that people want to play, than coming up with ideas to keep people from playing.

>>maybe if you had your game pirated a bunch you would feel diferently?


I told you countless times. If I were an indie developer (oh wait, I am), I'd want my game to get out. I'm not going to arse myself with screwing around with some insane piracy protection scheme. I have games to make. I'm a game programmer, not a security guard. Oh, and your first title isn't going to turn you into a millionaire, sorry bud.

Quote:
the [ code ] and/or [ source ] tags are your friend =D

>>I swear this guy stays up nights waiting for me to do somthing he doesnt like


No, I do not stay up late waiting for you to do something I don't like. And that, my friend, was a personal attack against me. My [ code ] and [ source ] tags comment? They're built into this stuff for a reason. Postign code without them makes things difficult to read and makes thigns look cleaner.

Quote:
I apologize for pissing on your parade, but all these little random posts of "clues" are getting kind of old now...

>>I would say all your random comments are getting old.


Yep, another random attack from Raymond Jacobs on me. I should go close my journal.

Quote:
...and Laz has been the king of crap-posters here.


oh, another attack. Thanks!

So, while none of these were personal attacks, you were selfish enough to make it all about and against you.

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Quote:

Don't get me wrong Raymond, I think you're on the right track and I applaud you for all your efforts to work independently and complete projects. But don't expect everyone be fawning over you because shrinkwrapped a couple DVD cases for Morning's Wrath. I for one don't think that's an actual selling point for a product.
>>sweet begining? sour ending.


How in the world is that anything other than criticism? That's the point everyone is trying to make. That comment carried no agenda or personal attack with it. A genuine compliment and a genuine criticism.. nothing more, nothing less. I simply recalled that one of the bullet points in your text promoting the release of the packaged Morning's Wrath was that it comes in a DVD case professionally shrinkwrapped. Really what's the point of mentioning that? As a buyer, I don't care if it's shrinkwrapped or taped shut, and moreover I *expect* something that's being promoted as a commercial offering to be professionally packaged.

Seriously man, take the good with the bad. Lest this episode becomes the chapter in GameDev history that shows future comers what not to do when the situation of criticism arises.

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Quote:
This compilation of games, is basically a weak attempt to try and grab some extra money - without developing anything. The games consist of basic card, arcade and mind games, these are presented in a basic format without any frills. Good if you are a bored office worker - wanting something for the lunch break - Someone who doesn't play games often and just needs to rest from working. All these can run on the minimalist of systems and can run in the background of any office package - allowing easily to switch between the two. All the games seem rushed and just bundled together for the hell of it. Although the interface is clear and efficient, there is nothing draw the hardcore gamer in, no depth, no fun. Games of this sort do not require a high graphics quality and great involvement, because of their intention for the non-gamer it might be worth getting if you are such a person. BUT considering you can buy packages of over 500 games for around the same money - it might be beter to buy one of those, because you get many more games for little more price. Only for the non-gamer - Otherwise stay well clear.
-- the first Amazon review of my game pack.

Quote:
Maze Race. This is probably the worst of the bunch. Featuring astounding, 8-color graphics that look like they were drawn by an eight-year old with a basic grasp of Microsoft Paint... it's not going to win any awards in the visual department. The concept's not exactly tough to figure out, either. Here's the deal... you're the white mouse. The computer's the brown mouse. You need to navigate the maze to get to the cheese first. This isn't too rough, as the computer moves at the speed of the snail. The "exciting twist" involves the teleporters. Those black and white dots you see in the shot on the right do things. If the white mouse hits a white teleporter, nothing happens to him, but the brown mouse is moved randomly on the map. If the brown mouse hits a brown teleporter, the same thing happens (only reversed). Still with me? If the brown mouse hits a white teleporter, nothing happens to the white mouse, and the brown mouse is randomly teleported. Ditto the white mouse hitting a brown circle, but reverse it. See?

This game remains interesting for approximately half of one level.
-- gamespy review of one of my games.

Honestly, EDI, those comments you posted didn't strike me as all that venomous. Some of 'em were sarcastic, but some were constructive.

If criticism hits you this hard, then you need to find a less ambitious career path. Fact is, things will fall well short of expectations at every turn. Contractors will turn out to be complete flakes. People you thought were trustworthy will toss you under the bus. Creative accountants will screw you out of every royalty penny they can. And if you're the type that cowers the first time somebody criticizes you or cries when those big sacks of cash you expected to receive upon releasing your game don't arrive on-time, then you're in the wrong business.

So buck up, soldier. The universe is very big, very cold, very empty, and doesn't care one bit about you. And game development is even worse.

Now get to work. You've got somesuch game involving palm trees and mausoleums to finish.

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Well, now I feel the need to respond once again.

Quote:

Finally, EDI, that call out was certainly not necessary in a public forum.

>>people deciding what is neccisary on my own journal for me?


Ever heard of "taking the high road"? Yes, this is your journal, but it is by no means private. It is just as public as the forums, where that sort of activity would be discouraged. You should treat these sort of things as if everyone were standing around in a group talking. How inappropriate would it be at a large dinner to say that sort of thing infront of everyone? Why not pull that person aside and ask them later? Why not settle your differences privately?

Quote:

Your last two ideas have been fairly bogus, Raymond. Stick to programming, and get someone else to do your business for you.

>>lovely way to put it, thanks a bunch.


Raymond, did you major in finance? Do you have an MBA? Perhaps accounting? No? Are you some sort of financial analyst? No? That is my point. And maybe that sounds rude, but it is a legitimate point, and often being sharp is the best way to get things across. You were dangerously treading into grounds in which you had no experience. There is nothing wrong with that in most cases, but you were starting to make decisions blindly that were affecting the future of your project and business, and THAT is dangerous. And no, I have no place of telling you how to conduct your business, just as you have no place in telling me how to conduct mine. But advice is advice is advice. Take it or leave it, and stop taking it so personally.

Now, if you don't mind me saying, it seems that ever since you didn't get "instantly rich" off of MW, you have been in a bit of a "bah humbug" mood. You seemed to have brushed yourself off with the start of project 2, but I can see you are hurt that you didn't get the success you wanted after pouring so much work into it. At the same time, after talking to my sister about your expectations, I thought you were insane and setting yourself up for a disappointment. You majorly lacked a pre-launch advertising campaign, and didn't have much going for marketing at all. Everything you did was after deployment. As well, you haven't really seemed to look at the general market trend for indies. They take a while to catch on.

So buck up. Morning's Wrath was a learning experience, something you enjoyed working on. And it certainly isn't a loss -- with more exposure I am sure you will see many more purchases.

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I'd also recommend that you don't close the journal. There's at least a dozen different posters here who are obviously keeping tabs on your development. I know that I've been occasionally checking as to how your Project 2 is going. If you were to move over to your own website, then the gamedev.net people will lose interest in your game. Maybe you could cut down the posting, and only put up a screenshot once every month or so, but that would be better from a marketing perspective than just closing the journal.

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You know something, EDI? What goes around comes around.
A while ago I offered to let you use our engine for your second project. To which you replied that my engine kind of sucks (well, you didn't say that it sucks, but you implied it, saying that it lacks quality and stuff).
You can't resonably expect you to be able to criticize other people's work but not allow them to criticize yours.

Now, I didn't play MW but from the screenshots on your website I would say that our game not only looks better but our engine is much more versatile, and the last updates made it pretty nice for an isometric game. And a few entires ago in your dev journal, you claimed that 3D is nice but you don't have the time or experience to make your own engine.

Then you complained you made only 1K USD for 3 years of work, but you totally dissregarded my offer for free publicity to your game on our community, and you violently rejected my advices to you on how to make your 3 years of work more productive for you.

Now, it is your prerogative to reject my offers, tell moderators to delete my advices, and tell me how much our engine/game sucks.
But it is not your prerogative to say that you are a victim of the evil people here, because some of them actually tried to help you while you rudely told them to mind their own business.

One other thing, some of your technical advice is wrong. For example, putting multiple textures in a big texture is not always good. For example, this prevents the video card from caching only the most used textures, by forcing it to cache a huge lump of textures, many that might be rarely used.
And FYI, drawing the tile map is the least expensive GPU related thing, even if you optimize that 10 times is still not going to make a big impact on your frame rate.

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In hopes to derail this train, think about all of the positive.

Quote:

Everyone should buy their game, Morning's Wrath! It's a good game;


Quote:

It's a purchase well worth the money.


Quote:

What a truly amazing feeling it must be to be complete in such a large-scale project. I tip my hat to EDI. :)


Quote:

Congratulations, I really enjoyed your demo, but it was evil to make at stop at the first time you can choose where to go, but I guess it's because it was just a demo.


Quote:

I think that the game looks amazing.


Quote:

Congrats to you buddy, you did a great job on it, I hope the best for you!


Quote:

You have succeded where many have failed.


Quote:

I wish I had cool screenshots to show off.... :
Looks great!


Quote:

Thanks, Raymond!!! :D


Quote:

Good job, I'll be sure to follow your dev journal.

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<goat_sacrafice> <deep_energy_meditation> <jedi_mind_trick> You will not close down your journal </jedi_mind_trick> </deep_energy_meditation> </goat_sacrafice>

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First off, I apologize, Raymond. I try not to usually come off like this, but I'm going to say it:


You're being a child. You've moved up from the casual realm of hobby gamedev into that oh-so-real world of commercial gamedev. Because of that, you're going to get commmercial-level feedback. That usually means it's going to be rough. Try reading the StarWars Galaxies forums, or Infantry, or any other commercial game. People have a way of getting really pissy and negative. Johnhattan hit the nail on the head: grow thicker skin.

This whole "I give up on this journal" pansy attitude is terrible. I've seen your work, your resolve, and your iron dedication to game development. Quite frankly you've been inspiring during my devdays, and I know that you're better than this kind of action. Suck it up, and move on. You've got more than this.

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Look man, I'm not gonna say that you're being childish or any shit like that. This is just business. Every game that goes out on the market is going to face criticism. This is part of your market. I (as part of this market) have your demo and want to purchase. I DON'T have a pirated copy or anything like that. I'm a programmer too and don't pirate software. I plan on buying MW AND I'm interested in your next game.

I've just bought a house and I'm a little too busy buying paint, supplies and hiring contractors right now so I'm not buying games at this time. But I'm certainly buying your game. Now, if I have knowledge of your next game, I'm more than likely going to buy it. You fade away off this journal, which I read up on each time you post, I'm NOT going to know about your game when it's done.

Don't turn away on a good market. I like your work and I'm incredibly impressed with what you've done. Stick around. You're going to let a few words, criticisms get you down when it's a money generator (hopefully moreso in the future)?

I hope you do stick around.

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For anyone who's ever decided to take the indie plunge, you have to have expected that you will not make a damn thing off your hard work, but however for most indies, it's the love of the programming and bringing something you love to life.

As far as critcism, this is a public area and people will post both negative and positive comments. Learn to seperate the vindictive from the critical and the fan boys from the constructive. You cannot have a fragile ego and post anything about who you are and what you're doing without expecting someone not liking you or just being plain mean.

Top and bottom of it - Do it for the love of it or quit!

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Holy Hell. I go from spending some time to enjoy the Holidays, to coming back to a wild rampage of consistant lashings back and forth across the table.

I'm not pointing a finger to everybody who posts, because even through all this crap, some people still have some motivational comments to leave. However, some comments that have been left, should have just been thrown across a PM because some things are just sounding like their throwing more gas in the fire for reasons that I'll just leave out of this post.

I've been in places where hard skin was needed 100% of the time and darn near 100% of the time I just kept telling myself that it will be better in time if I just push a little more.

Raymond. As bad as it sucks, just push through this event and keep presenting your ideologies the way YOU wish to present them. If you leave, the same issues will still be here when you return. It's got to be fixed here, right now. Man, you know you have fan base that supports your endevours, look at your sales. They may not be AAA material, but jesus, you're doing a lot more than a vast majority of all indie wannabes.

Stay Motivated man. Push through the flames and stand proud knowing your work is inspring aspiring developers out there and that they are looking up to you as a leader and a mentor; displaying the idea of, "Hey, it can be done". You may not physically see it, but its there.

Don't run away bro. Stand Strong and take the "criticism" with a grain of salt and follow your beliefs/values as you **** well please. If someones negative, turn it positive or just freaking ignore them. How the hell do you think I got out of the Marines? :)

Take care buddy and Stay Motivated.
-Dave

P.S. Sorry for all the non-activity online. G/F's been sick, family functions out the wahzoo and some R&R playing some games! =X

P.S.S. For the community members. We're like a freaking brotherhood, support this Indie and pick his ass back up. Don't leave anybody behind. The closure of this Journal SHALL NOT STAND!

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