"but the size of the *language*"
Who cares if it doesn''t actually effect the final output? None of that "bloat" is slowing down your project.
"and the number of special cases one has to remember to avoid all the pitfalls"
For example...?
And how does the number of cases in C++ compare to Java?
"Elegance?"
Oh yeah, there''s a critical aspect of a language. /sarcasm
How is Java any "prettier" than C++?
Ben
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Java taking over?
quote:Original post by SabreMan
Weak? What exactly has it failed to excell at?
Elegance?
elegance? how on earth is that relevent? java is just as bloated IMO as c++ with all the depracted methods/objects etc, etc… did any one read that article at o''reillys about things that should be fixed in java. just a question, not that im deriving my opinions from that article. (a little disclaimer, just in case)
i agree with what someone mentioned earlier java is better suited to learning OOP than most other languages.
Get busy livin'' or get busy dyin''… - Shawshank Redemption
As for my two cents on this matter:
You need to consider what you are developing your game for.
PC running Windows with DirectX/OpenGL, C++ is the clear choice. PC running Linux with SDL/OpenGL, again C++ the winner. XBox, again C++. You just simply cannot get another language that has the number of tools and game development SDKs available/targeted at C++ developers.
If I were wanting to write a fairly simple platform independent game that could be run within a browser with modest hardware requirements, I would choose Java over C++.
As for the comment on C++ being bloated or having feature bloat no one is saying you have to use ALL of its features. Learn how to use the best features of the language, encapsulation, inheritance, and polymorphism. Master pointers, memory allocation and learn how to use the STL string and container classes. With these features you can produce clean, robust, and extensible code quickly.
You need to consider what you are developing your game for.
PC running Windows with DirectX/OpenGL, C++ is the clear choice. PC running Linux with SDL/OpenGL, again C++ the winner. XBox, again C++. You just simply cannot get another language that has the number of tools and game development SDKs available/targeted at C++ developers.
If I were wanting to write a fairly simple platform independent game that could be run within a browser with modest hardware requirements, I would choose Java over C++.
As for the comment on C++ being bloated or having feature bloat no one is saying you have to use ALL of its features. Learn how to use the best features of the language, encapsulation, inheritance, and polymorphism. Master pointers, memory allocation and learn how to use the STL string and container classes. With these features you can produce clean, robust, and extensible code quickly.
I agree with KalvinB; C++ is a big hulking beast because there are so many features, but nobody has to use them all. Are simpler languages, with less features better? Sure, their syntax is cleaner because they don''t support as much as C++, but to achieve the equivalent of a template class in, say, Visual Basic, you''ll have to write a lot of ''elegant'' and repetitive code.
However, I agree that C++ without C compatibility could be simplified, but I don''t think that''s going to happen (or if it does, it will be yet another language no one uses).
Cédric
However, I agree that C++ without C compatibility could be simplified, but I don''t think that''s going to happen (or if it does, it will be yet another language no one uses).
Cédric
quote:Original post by KalvinB
Who cares if it doesn''t actually effect the final output? None of that "bloat" is slowing down your project.
It means that it can take time to figure out how to do *anything*, which *might* be slowing down your project, with the proviso that "slowing down your project" is a relative term.
quote:
For example...?
static? sequence points? definitions like this:
T t(10); ?
Places where a semi-colon is needed? The difference between "." and "->"?
In general, though, the most bogus features of C++ are due to C legacy. It''s a double-edged sword. C++ wouldn''t be so popular if it weren''t for that legacy.
quote:
And how does the number of cases in C++ compare to Java?
I wasn''t comparing anything to Java, I was clarifying Arild''s statement of opinion, which I don''t think he made in relation to Java.
quote:
Oh yeah, there''s a critical aspect of a language. /sarcasm
Your inability to understand how important elegance is in programming language design does not make it any less important.
Who Cares About Elegance?
quote:
How is Java any "prettier" than C++?
Where did I say it is?
quote:Original post by Syrillix
elegance? how on earth is that relevent?
Call it succinctness, if you prefer.
quote:
java is just as bloated IMO as c++ with all the depracted methods/objects etc, etc...
Yes, but I never said Java improves the situation.
actually someone should plan a project and concerning to the project needs you decide which language you take. this how it should be. but if someone only knows one language whatever this language is he will code everything in this language. the problem is in how many programming languages you can really be very good and experienced? however, the needs for most games tend to c++ and for bussines applications to java.
PS: java isn''t really slow. it was only the UI in the past. a bad algorithm with c or assembler is always lots slower than a good algorithm for java. speed doesn''t depend so much on the language but rather on the guy who sits in front of the machine
PS: java isn''t really slow. it was only the UI in the past. a bad algorithm with c or assembler is always lots slower than a good algorithm for java. speed doesn''t depend so much on the language but rather on the guy who sits in front of the machine
quote:Original post by Botcher
actually someone should plan a project and concerning to the project needs you decide which language you take.
I agree, but the project needs include factors such as "what do our developers currently know?", "how difficult is it to learn?", "how expensive are programmers in this technology?", "how abundant are skills in this technology?", "does the technology have a long and stable future?". The idea of "technology X is the best solution to problem Y" is never the sole decider in tool adoption, and is often a minor consideration.
quote:
this how it should be.
There''s lots of things in the world that are not as they should be. McDonald''s "food", for instance.
quote:
but if someone only knows one language whatever this language is he will code everything in this language.
Which really makes him either a) inexperienced or b) just not very good at his job.
It is amazing to me that there is SO much misinformation out there with regard to Java. The best comments are from tose in this thread that "Java will never replace C++".
Hmmmm...you will never get C to run as fast as assebmly, C++ to run as fast as C, Java to run as fast as C++. Software development is an evolutionary process that stays in lockstep with hardware advancements. Just listen to Jogn Carmack at QuakeCon. High level shaders, not hand crafted implementatins will be the way to go.
While Java has a way to go, the performance gains that it has made is startling. Check out www.magicosm.net to see what a small group of developers have been able to accomplish in Java and then post back here
Hmmmm...you will never get C to run as fast as assebmly, C++ to run as fast as C, Java to run as fast as C++. Software development is an evolutionary process that stays in lockstep with hardware advancements. Just listen to Jogn Carmack at QuakeCon. High level shaders, not hand crafted implementatins will be the way to go.
While Java has a way to go, the performance gains that it has made is startling. Check out www.magicosm.net to see what a small group of developers have been able to accomplish in Java and then post back here
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