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Do Monsters Have Souls

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Hi This is my 1st post on ur forums so ied like to say hi to all the other ppl out there who seem to be on my wave lenght ie games designers. Now onto the subject. I am at present makeing the story for a monster cellectshion game and rpg in one simeler to games like Jade Cocoon Degimon and to a less sapy extent pokemon. I dont want to go into detail as ive only just started it however i am haveing a little problem with the combineing of the monsters. In most monster collectshion games u can breed monsters, of even different species together and make new monsters like for example dragon warrior monsters use this concept. So my idea was to scrap breeding and use genetic combineing [cloneing and genetic modification and screwing about with the monsters DNA] to make new monsters. Now hears my problem i cant deside if the monsters should keep there temperments and personality nature [and more in story mode] or weather is becomes a brand new monster after it is geneticly modafied. Withen this game a lot of acessability in useing ur monsters as in personaly training in centures 3rd person battles against other monsters and unlike most monster collectshion games the player will be able to control there human avatar withen the game, useing a 3rd person view to fight human v human battles as well as monster v monster battles all in real time. All i need to do now is write the story and discriptshions of the game areas and a good solid monster list then i can make it.....not to much to do lol. So do clones have souls, that is the question.

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Instead of theorizing on the metaphysical nature of souls and clones, maybe you could come up with an interesting gaming dynamic for the genetic merging.

Just because two creatures are aggressive doesn't mean the clone has to be, nor do a docile and aggressive creature have to become a mild-mannered creature.

You could come up with variations on attributes that, when combined, result in repeatable results. The factors could be aggression level, cunning in battle, intelligence, etc. The creature itself could play a factor too - a snuklar's aggression always combines with goolat's cunning to result it a moronic, uh, snuklat.

Oh, and welcome to GameDev


[edited by - Waverider on August 28, 2002 3:37:18 PM]

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To some extent i do agree with u however if a monster is made from a genetic replaka of 2 monsters with a agressive nature built into there genetic makeup shouldnt that inturn make a agressive monster.

Also i was thinking not to make a new monster entirely more like this:

U take a pice of red paper with 4 pices of card on it. U remove 1 bad card from it. U then take a 2nd pice of paper thats colered blue with 4 cards on it and remove 2 cards from it and place them onto the other pice of red paper. So u still have red paper but its got 5 cards and is lacking the bad card. So its improved the red paper but u still have the red paper and not the blue.

So in game turms u have a monster with bad intelgence but all other good stats. U then take the intelgence from anouther monster and the skin from that monster. Then proceed to alter the bad intelgence monster with the good intelgence genes and give the once good intelgence monster the bad intelgence genes and discard that monster as waste. Thus resulting in ur monster being improved.

So the question still remains, Should the monsters disposhion remain as it was or should the genetic modifications alter this as well.

Also thx for the warm welcome =]

[edited by - Trilus on August 28, 2002 4:22:37 PM]

[edited by - Trilus on August 28, 2002 4:23:38 PM]

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What about training methods? I''m assuming the human character has to "train" his genetically modified monsters; couldn''t that be a factor in determining aggression?

Let''s say they genetically merge two highly aggressive monsters (fyi, this is still breeding - just in a lab instead of a stud farm). The resultant hybrid would very likely have strong tendencies towards aggression, but a trainer with kind training methods could offset this.

By contrast, a hybrid resulting from two passive creatures could be brought up in a harsh environment, resulting in a very aggressive creature despite his genetic makeup.

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prolly.

If you look at nature''s clones, the Cama(Camel & LLama), the Mule(Donkey and Horse) and the Z-Donk(sp?) (Zebra & Donkey). They retain the mental attributes of their parents...

a Mule is a large Donkey, with the ability to carry things better than a horse. It has the docility of a Horse, and the lifting / carrying abilities of a big Donkey.

a Cama is a Camel w/o a hump. It is mean like a camel, and it doesn''t carry as much. I also believe there is only one. It combines the worse posible traits of a Camel and a Llama...

I don''t know enough about Z-Donks

So Animals definity have a soul. Personality is passed from the Prevous animals are carried onto the new animal. Of couse, this also effects training, because its easier to train a pet than a wild creature.

It also might mean there are latent genes that can effect personality, like two nice monsters combining to form a mean monster, because they both have mean monster genes...

Altho Cloning w/the ability to add / remove genes would also make the monster nice, no matter what, a scientest may be able to locate the evil genes, and have them combind...

The other thing you might concider is age. Many wild animals are easier / nicer to manage when they''re young. Like Wolves. When they get older, they regain many of their personality traits regardless of being domesticated...


The last thing to concider is the amount of detal. Gamers prefer predicable events...It might be better to assign a monster a trait if breeding is not a major part of the game.






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i think u dont understand my ideas

What i plan to do it have a monster game whereby there is no breeding instead u use genetic combineing by takeing DNA from one and DNA from anouther and makeing it into a new monster with the preveus 2 in tact.

So u take MONKEY''s DNA and DNA from RINO and make a MONKEY with leatherey skin and a horn or a RINO with fur and hands with no horn.

However i belive even this is too predicable for my likeing and desided to go with direct unpredicable combineing so u take MONKEY and RINO and u could end up with MONKEY that has trates of RINO or RINO that has trates of MONKEY or a direct combine a whird 3rd animal that looks like both have been wacked together.

I know what ur thinking theo as u think im going for a undefined monster list with vershions of different monsters however that is not so.

For example i have designed 6 monsters so far.

2 are a oil drum looking toxic monster called CANSTER [canser] which is toxic waste in a liveing drum with loads of radiation emanateing from it.

now take this CANSTER from example u then use a scorpion monster [which i havent designed yet...] and geneticly combine them.

what do u get....?

A CANSTER with a scorpion tale claws and jaws with 6 legs.

Thats the kind of monster genetics im talking about however to add unprictability to this u can end up with different monsters like a metal scorpion for example.

Ive seen this done in a monster game called monster rancher where by u combine monsters with %''s for the likeyhood of gaining different monsters which could be good or bad.

What i didnt like about this was that there was too lil chance of getting a good monster the stats were randomizied as were the moves and generally it never worked out as u wanted.

My idea is not allow such control as to GM a prefect monster in 2 mins however it is too test the players ability to train them correctly and make deshions in battle rather than rely to heavly on working hours doining boreing tasks to make there monster better and most importently not to snatch the perfectshion away from the player when they achive it by old age that it why im going to make the monsters out live players as in there is no age to monsters only training lv and evolution stages.

But i do see that inorder for u to under stand my idea i need to explain fully my ideas.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Right when u fight u can use either urself useing ur magic powers to match ur human powers to that of monsters or use ur own monsters power to fight them all in 3d, real time and area persific locashions.

Now unlike most monster collectshion games u have to ko or nockout ur oppont inorder to capture it [takes out the very anoying "fight fight fight nock em down slowly careful get em into critical.....&%$#*!!!....its gone and the fights over" sindrome] or u can simple kill the beast and collect its soul as ur useing dark magic that absorbs souls.

So uve caught a monster in ur duleist golves now what?

U take ur monster 1st to a monster hospital and get it healed then over to the training area for stat boosting.

U get there and send the new monster into a training corce called "push the bolder". Easy enought kick push wack and hit the boulder across the corce and use a attack to brake it at the end.

Now for doing this u go 3rd person view on it and select the corce and bolder size pending on the monsters size and strenght [all ur own deshions]

go 3rd person mode, start the attacks and move the boulder to the end urself.If u screw it up its ur falt not the computers randomness. Its performence is desided on its stats inclueing its balence so if it cant balence it self well then it will be so when ur controling it.

On the battle screen u will see HP, stamina, Defence, sprit gages. Hp goses down as u take hits however in the basic training u wont take hits. Stamina goses down as u work and goses back up as the monster rests in golves [feild storage] or just stops for a second in battle or regain its breath. Defence goses down as the monster defends, this can brake when its taken too much damage simple because its armour has broken or its shell cracked. Sprit goses down when magic is used but goses back up over time at the rate of intelgence.

So in training a monster would lose hp [at high training lvs] use stamina for training itself when that runs out it cant train till its rested defence goses down as it takes hits [at high training lvs] and unless u used magic in training then sprit would never go down.

So u hit the boulder with attacks to move it and then at the end of the training seshion u would gain strenght points onto ur max ie makes the monster stronger.

That is how u capture and train monsters basicly
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I know what ur thinking "useing this u can make the monster have max stats in the beggining of the game"

Not so because u can only get them to a cirturn stats lv useing this because the equipment will only improve cirturn things and so far as in 10000 points max at the start u can only improve them to 100 useing the 1st set of equipment and even then cirturn monsters have limits as in a grade 1 monster can only gain a max of 2000 in any stats however a grade 2 monster can gain a max of 4000 and a grade 3 8000 and so on.

back to the original problem

in takeing 2 monsters a transfer of genetic materal between 2 monsters would alter the end result of monster in personality simplely because ur takeing DNA informatshion not only for the body but also the mind and chemicals that will be flowing threw its system as in what makes it agressive. I will be running personality nature from at least 3 generashions back in the monsters familiy line so if it has a agressive uncul but a timid father then its personality will be a mix If its its genetic code that desides if its agressive or not but as said it can rely simpley on how the trainer treats it.

Also the topic wording was a joke i know monsters have souls just it was ment to imply personality not soul posshion or not.

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Just to clarify: it''s still considered breeding. Many breeds of dogs that exist today are the result of less-scientific genetic manipulation. What you''re confusing are the concepts of "mating" and "genetic manipulation" - but they''re both considered breeding in this context.

If you''re taking one creature with certain genetic traits and "mating" it with a creature with other genetic traits to create offspring - seperate and distinct from the original parents - and raising it from infancy, then you''re acting as a breeder. Doesn''t matter if you call it cloning, genetic manipulating, stud farming or pimping - you''re a breeder.

Question: is the whole process random, or are these trainers/breeders using their own scientific knowledge? Is the ability to manipulate genetic code a learned skill, or does the player have to go to a "research center" to have it done? Can they specify what traits they want recombined into a new creature?

Are there different costs incurred for recombining different "levels" of genetic traits? Does the trainer have to bring his own creatures, or can he/she bring one and have the research center (for an additional fee) provide the second?

Are all creatures genetically compatible with each other? Are all traits able to be recombined with each other?

If you create a hybrid offspring, are the genetic traits of the offspring always able to be recombined later into a new offspring? Is it possible for the process to reject a recombination of genetic traits?

What happens if a trainer/breeder creates a creature they don''t like? Do they simply hit "delete"? Do they let the creature run wild? Can a released creature go "feral"?

Are the creatures semi-sentient, i.e. Digimon/Pokemon? If so, do they appreciate this whole genetic manipulation? If you create hybrid offspring from them, do they have a parent/child relationship/bond with them?

I''m just throwing a ton of questions here, to see how in depth you plan on making this.

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Thx i can work with this instead of makeing it up as i go.

-------Just to clarify: it''s still considered breeding. Many breeds of dogs that exist today are the result of less-scientific genetic manipulation. What you''re confusing are the concepts of "mating" and "genetic manipulation" - but they''re both considered breeding in this context.

If you''re taking one creature with certain genetic traits and "mating" it with a creature with other genetic traits to create offspring - seperate and distinct from the original parents - and raising it from infancy, then you''re acting as a breeder. Doesn''t matter if you call it cloning, genetic manipulating, stud farming or pimping - you''re a breeder.--------

OK i do get where u comming from however breeding for me means takeing 2 creatures and makeing do the reproductive thing and get a baby where as gentic lab stuff isnt really sumed up as breeding.

-------Question: is the whole process random, or are these trainers/breeders using their own scientific knowledge? Is the ability to manipulate genetic code a learned skill, or does the player have to go to a "research center" to have it done? Can they specify what traits they want recombined into a new creature?-------

In order to do it u go to a center to have it done hand over both monsters however u can only ask for the bonus genes u could say of each creature as in while training u gain a set bonus which over time in training centers would ammount to big bonus.

U would have to train all creatures from babys as ur takeing DNA from 2 creatures to make 1 which would be a baby.

-------Are there different costs incurred for recombining different "levels" of genetic traits? Does the trainer have to bring his own creatures, or can he/she bring one and have the research center (for an additional fee) provide the second?

Are all creatures genetically compatible with each other? Are all traits able to be recombined with each other?-------

U have to bring all creatures to the center.

I cant deside weather to charge for Genetic Mod as in the end to get anywhere u will need this so i may charge nothing at the start and then charge money for higher and higher ones till u reach the twilight of the game then its free again because u gain ur own labs.

U gain bigger and bigger bonus''s as u combine more and more monsters together as ued need that to get anywhere.

And yes everything compatible.

-------If you create a hybrid offspring, are the genetic traits of the offspring always able to be recombined later into a new offspring? Is it possible for the process to reject a recombination of genetic traits?--------

I belive the rejectshion of cirturn trates in combineing may be a good idea due to the fact that i need to explain y cirturn trates are lost when u combine cirturn creatures or ied be forever deisgning creatures for the game as the vareashions would be endless with the exceptshion of bonus features like horns and armour.......ill think on that.

-------What happens if a trainer/breeder creates a creature they don''t like? Do they simply hit "delete"? Do they let the creature run wild? Can a released creature go "feral"?-------

If u made one u dont like the best way to deal with it most of the time is to improve on it useing a good one as if uve ended going tits up with a high bred one then ull lose a lot of moves or a cirturn stat bonus that u dont want to lose. Ur choices for monster disposel are 1] distroy/kill them 2] recombine them.

U will not be able to releace them as if u did think about what the impact on the genetics in the enviroment would be from test tube monsters.

-----Are the creatures semi-sentient, i.e. Digimon/Pokemon? If so, do they appreciate this whole genetic manipulation? If you create hybrid offspring from them, do they have a parent/child relationship/bond with them?------

The monsters them selves are mearly sprit creatures. The main person u use in the game has control over them so they have no say in it anyway but as there is genetic memerory in play it is like owning the same monster if u treet it the same way all the time.

U lose the genetic orignals when u geneticly combine monsters together. I belive that is best for the way the game works.

If u can do that again were gonna be getting somewhere.

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Further confusion.

quote:
What i plan to do it have a monster game whereby there is no breeding instead u use genetic combineing by takeing DNA from one and DNA from anouther and makeing it into a new monster with the preveus 2 in tact.


quote:
U lose the genetic orignals when u geneticly combine monsters together. I belive that is best for the way the game works.


These two seem to contradict each other.

Are you:
a) using genetic material from X and Y to create an offspring, Z (leaving X and Y intact), or
b) genetically merging X and Y to for Z, meaning X and Y no longer exist?

Big, big difference there.

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ok sorry my falt for changeing my mind as im designing this dayly as i go like.

Hears what ive desided on today and i think im gonna stick to this.

What im gonna do is take DNA from x and record this DNA pattern onto a chip which can be used 2 times for cloneing or mergeing with other DNA [to make new monsters]

so u can either reserect [or clone from the chip into its baby form for retraining] the monster that got killed [as they dont die of age and they can be killed in battle] or u can combine it with other DNA in a center to make a new monster with a stat bonus while training and the mixed looks of its parunts to a degree of a horn hear or there but its added to a template of predesigned listed monsters.

That clear the fog.

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i think it''s only reasonable that some fairly abstract personality traits eg agression should be mixed according to the same rules as size or stamina.

weights (genetic dominance) should be assigned to each allele to bias what gets mixed. i LIKE not knowing wether to get a tank with a tail or a banana-loving heavy beast which wants to climb trees. It would be even better if traits heavily influenced survival (does the rhino-monkey die in miserable starvation or take a running charge and knock it over in anger, or go looking for another food instead of half-killing itself?)

it would be intresting if pockets of monsters went down slightly different evolutionary paths.

ive just had an idea for a game! Civilisation-esque or Dungeon Keeper-ist but you work on several "tribes" at once and have to keep them from warring, mixing in dangerous combinations. the aim is to advance as far as possible without imploding (which will always happen inevetably because the mutants would tear themselves or each other apart). it''s a sandbox and has the right qualities (open ended, accomodates flexible playing styles)

comments?

********


A Problem Worthy of Attack
Proves It''s Worth by Fighting Back

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I may have missed something, but I don't understand why it would matter whether the monsters have souls. Cloning works (or breeding, or genetic engineering, or whatever the hell you're talking about) whether we understand its spiritual implications or not. Tendencies towards certain mental states are inherited in real life, but environment plays a massive role in determining a person's mental makeup; most of us are FAR from being mental clones of our parents. Perhaps I'm just reading part of your post wrong, but unless you are actually physically splitting slime-like creatures in half, I don't see how the prescence or abscence of souls would affect gameplay. Even if you WERE splitting slimes in half, chances are that it wouldn't matter whether they had souls or not, in terms of heredity.

By the way, if you actually want people to talk to you productively about your ideas, you should know that telling them to find their own thread is just asking for a flame-war. You should be pleased, not upset, that your ideas engendered flashes of creativity in someone else. You should be further pleased that they chose to acknowledge it, rather than starting a new thread about it and claiming that the idea was entirely original.

P.S. A small piece of friendly advice: People will take you more seriously if you watch your grammar and spelling. And since UR would be pronounced "you are", you would be ill-advised to use it as a contraction for "your" as well as "you're".

P.P.S. In my opinion, clones have similar mental characteristics compared to their genetic brothers/sisters, but a soul drawn from the same place as everyone else's, and in the same way.

[edited by - DuranStrife on September 7, 2002 1:23:06 PM]

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thanks for backing me up! id like to think we have enough sense to not start flaming over such a trivial thing. it''s not as if we worked hard to get our territory here. that idea was just something that rang true in this context so it made sense to just post-fix it.

back to the subject: there''s no arguing that some mental things propagate through the generations (in my family, everyone gets other people''s childrens names mixed up. it''s a time-honoured tradition) but if you''re dealing with medium-to-large numbers of agents, it makes more sense to have them adopt an environment-based personality.

in a real civilisation, the movement of the whole shapes the perspective of the members. for example, ever since it was deemed "politically incorrect" (spit) to be anti-homosexual, the numbers of gay and bisexual people has exploded.

if, on the other hand, agents occasionally meet and breed in small numbers, inherited personalities would probably perform better.

if you take a step back from eny metaphysical argument, the solution depends entirely on the player''s expectations: that agressive civilisations continue to be agressive, or that sweet-mannered children have sweet-mannered parents. the method to present should be the one that is most effective.

********


A Problem Worthy of Attack
Proves It''s Worth by Fighting Back

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quote:
Original post by DuranStrife
By the way, if you actually want people to talk to you productively about your ideas, you should know that telling them to find their own thread is just asking for a flame-war. You should be pleased, not upset, that your ideas engendered flashes of creativity in someone else. You should be further pleased that they chose to acknowledge it, rather than starting a new thread about it and claiming that the idea was entirely original.

P.S. A small piece of friendly advice: People will take you more seriously if you watch your grammar and spelling. And since UR would be pronounced "you are", you would be ill-advised to use it as a contraction for "your" as well as "you're".
[edited by - DuranStrife on September 7, 2002 1:23:06 PM]


1st off its part of my persona that i go into kill anything that moves mode [just life made me that way] so please dont take offence

and 2nd i play online games a lot and UR U PLZ and all things like it are inherent of that type of game and are adopted by all mmorpg players i that ive ever met so "what are u gonna do"-Quote Homer Simpson

also in case u missed it the 1st time the souls bit was a joke [it seemed funney when i wrote it]



[edited by - Trilus on September 7, 2002 4:16:52 PM]

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