Jump to content
  • Advertisement

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

deClavier

Curiosity

This topic is 5908 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

If you intended to correct an error in the post then please contact us.

Recommended Posts

How many ways can you distort the player''s perception that everything is the same? How far can you lead a player with only hints to go on? How does curiosity function?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Advertisement
quote:
Original post by deClavier
How many ways can you distort the player''s perception that everything is the same?

The syntax of this question is confusing. Are you asking for ideas on how to trick a player into thinking that nothing in an image has changed when in actuality it has?

quote:
Original post by deClavier
How far can you lead a player with only hints to go on?


Far as in distance or as in time? Lead a player where? Direct or indirect hints?

quote:
Original post by deClavier
How does curiosity function?

That''s um, geez, a big question

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Kylotan
DeClavier has a policy of making the posts surreal and meaning next to nothing to the average person. Maybe a clarification will be forthcoming for us mere mortals soon.



Um, well, I''m better versed in surrealism than most Americans. I like the kinds of questions that DeClavier asks. The only trouble is, they are better suited for long talks at an outdoor cafe in Paris than these forums

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by deClavier
How many ways can you distort the player''s perception that everything is the same? How far can you lead a player with only hints to go on?



Make subtle changes to a scene over time. Add some new things, remove a couple of things. Move a couple of other things around. Imagine coming home, to find that all of the furniture has been slightly moved, maybe pulled an extra inch away from the walls.

Show a number of clocks in different locations. Each clock has a slightly different time (maybe 5 minutes off from any other clock).

Show a fairly standard scene, but make a critical omission. Perhaps a catholic church without a confessional.

For Mother GameDev!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by deClavier
How many ways can you distort the player''s perception that everything is the same?

42.

quote:
How far can you lead a player with only hints to go on?

About as far as the nearest pub.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:

Original post by deClavier

How many ways can you distort the player's perception that everything is the same? How far can you lead a player with only hints to go on?

How does curiosity function?



A game functions using a complicated unknown internal mathematic model. The player tests the internal model and gets responses to his experiments. The player can build a higher level model that estimates the laws of the internal model. When the player's high level model can estimate the internal model with enough accuracy, the game does not surprise him anymore. "Everything is the same." He doesn't experiment anymore, he just uses his applied knowledge. All his actions give the results predicted by his high level model.

If however, the internal model is multi-layered, designed so that some inner laws are hard to discover without some advanced experiments, the player will often reach the "everything is the same" state only to find out he missed something and there was something more.

If the player discovers his former high level model of the world he used to trust completely was not complete or was flawed somehow, and if this new discovery was hinted beforehand, he'll enter a new state of mind. It's the belief that there is something more to discover, and that hints could be everywhere around him. It's the jump from the dogmatic mindset to the scientific mindset.

Eventually, the player may incorporate the entire inner model into his high level model, or most of it anyway, but the belief that there may still be something more will carry on.

Curiosity is the reinforced belief that research is likely to produce results.

Two examples: Dark Forces II Jedi Knight and Mulholland Drive.

At the end of each level in DFII the user was let know how many secrets he discovered in the level and how many were not discovered (hint that there is something more to discover). During each level, visible seeming unreachable areas also hinted at something to discover. Discovering each secret wasn't impossible nor random.

Mulholland Drive is a movie that is quite well described by pwd's post. Multiple watching of the film reveal interesting facts, many theories can be attempted, and a quite accurate theory of what 'really' happened can be created. Research gives results. However, David Lynch cheated a bit with this movie. While some hints can lead to fruitful research, some other hints lead nowhere or contradict each other. While this 'cheating' worked well for MH, it may frustrate a player if the belief that research cannot offer any solid results is reinforced too much.

And another example: deClavier's posts. While generally not understanding about every other word he uses, the reinforced belief that his posts do actually make sense (I just got a reinforcement with this thread) makes me curious to read and think about his posts.


[edited by - Diodor on September 13, 2002 11:21:40 AM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Diodor
A game functions using a complicated unknown internal mathematic model. The player tests the internal model and gets responses to his experiments. The player can build a higher level model that estimates the laws of the internal model. When the player''s high level model can estimate the internal model with enough accuracy, the game does not surprise him anymore. "Everything is the same." He doesn''t experiment anymore, he just uses his applied knowledge. All his actions give the results predicted by his high level model.

If however, the internal model is multi-layered, designed so that some inner laws are hard to discover without some advanced experiments, the player will often reach the "everything is the same" state only to find out he missed something and there was something more.

If the player discovers his former high level model of the world he used to trust completely was not complete or was flawed somehow, and if this new discovery was hinted beforehand, he''ll enter a new state of mind. It''s the belief that there is something more to discover, and that hints could be everywhere around him. It''s the jump from the dogmatic mindset to the scientific mindset.

Eventually, the player may incorporate the entire inner model into his high level model, or most of it anyway, but the belief that there may still be something more will carry on.

Curiosity is the reinforced belief that research is likely to produce results.


Diodor, this is BRILLIANT! You express succintly what I''ve been thinking about in a very messy, abstract fashion. I have been thinking that the more you''re able to variate the numerical stats that represent your game entities, and the formulas that govern their interaction, the more you''re able to offer the player new things to discover.

Visual variation (with procedural geometry, or my approach of mix and match geometry) is not enough. Having a bunch of different but changing forms quickly leads to the perception that everything is the same, because everything still functions the same and the player''s experience is status quo.

I think one way to alter the player''s perception is to introduce seemingly similar entities (weapons, creatures, game objects) that occassionally perform different functions or have different behavior. The player should be told as little as possible about the models and the entities, and left to discover as much as possible about how the rules influence them. (Of course, they should know the basic rules of interaction starting off).

I find that alot of games get away with minute variation, btw, in introducing new elements. A weapon will do slightly more damage (+2 versus +5 rifle); an enemy will be slightly faster; or an environment will change slightly (lower gravity, for instance).

These changes, for me and many I know, enhance or even supplant the curiosity bonus that story provides (the "what will happen next?" impulse that keeps us turning pages)


--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:

Original post by Wavinator

Diodor, this is BRILLIANT!



Thanks! I forgot to mention that a very simple and effective way to further increase the player''s curiosity is to pack a cake with each discovery, so discovery is not only a goal in itself, but also a game advance bonus. Well, I''m going to eat my large Game Design posting reinforcement caek now

quote:

These changes, for me and many I know, enhance or even supplant the curiosity bonus that story provides (the "what will happen next?" impulse that keeps us turning pages)



Yes. There is no change to the player''s high level model, but there is cake (more or less), and the player is always interested (and curious) about how large his cake is.

Some games however, like Nethack or ADOM have a subtle luck/karma system that influences these small changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Advertisement
×

Important Information

By using GameDev.net, you agree to our community Guidelines, Terms of Use, and Privacy Policy.

GameDev.net is your game development community. Create an account for your GameDev Portfolio and participate in the largest developer community in the games industry.

Sign me up!