what an RPG really is

Shambles · 2002-09-14T05:29:52

Hi I see a lot of posts and I mean TONS about RPGs but many confuse me. What do the people in this forum think an RPG is? These posts confused me so much, that I decided to look into what an RPG really is. Note This whole post is based on the assumption that Dungeons and Dragons is the first RPG. If this is wrong then please disregard this post. The first RPG To my knowlege, the first RPG is D&D (Dungeons and Dragons.) This post depends on you knowing at least a little bit of how the board game plays like. The Japanese factor The first game to definely shape the ''Japanese RPG'' was Dragon Quest (known as Dragon Warrior in the US.) It involved an epic story, and a character which you move in a world map or city. When you were in the world map, you would encounter monsters at random and a battle window would pop-up allowing you to make decisions in a turn-based manner. Of course the game borrowed a little bit from other games which tried to translate D&D into something playable on a gaming machine. Here is an example of what I mean by "tanslating D&D": In D&D there are rooms. Unexplored rooms had the possibility of enemies lurking inside them. When you entered an unexplored room, the monsters (or treasure, unicorn, ect.) of the room would become visible to you. What the creators of Dragon Quest did was add these sort of "rooms" but made the player encounter them randomly. What the creators also did was make all the enemies easy to get at compared to D&D, where you have to walk up to your enemies (of course with the exeption of ranged weapons.) AD&D AD&D was a way to play D&D interactively. AD&D never involved any kind of strategic decision making as they did in ''Japanese RPGs''. Therefore, ''Japanese RPGs'' are not real RPGs, but original interpretations of D&D. RPG = Role Playing Game I see many people in the forums talking about how Balder''s Gate is too boring to be and RPG. They argue that an RPG is supposed to have: a deep and long story, anime intro and song, and comic releif with bizare talking creatures. They also point out that there isn''t a lot of actual role playing. These people take the acronym far too literally. The fact is that RPG is a type of gameplay. Japanese.. "Epic"? The many false RPG games coming from Japan should have a genre of its own. A good name I would guess is "Epic". Because when you really think of it, all of these so-called ''Japanese RPGs'' involve some epic story. I''m no expert... I have only spent a month looking for what an RPG is so some of my assumptions may be wrong. But I know one thing is for sure; ''Japanese RPGs'' are NOT RPGs, and all those other games (Dungeon Siege, Diablo, Balder''s Gate) ARE RPGs. Wait a sec!! I love Japanese "Epics" I love Final Fantasy, Breath of Fire, and all those other game people assume to be RPGs. Its just that I''m tired of hearing people whining about how RPGs these days are bad. Further definiton of "Epic" games What I would say an epic game is, is a game which involves some epic story, and a strategic battle system. In closing.. RPG = type of gameplay which doesn''t require a ''Japanese Epic'' type of story. Thank you, -Shambles

Game Design and Theory Game Design

Started by Shambles September 13, 2002 08:31 AM

54 comments, last by Shambles 21 years, 7 months ago

Shambles

122

Author

September 13, 2002 09:29 AM

quote:Original post by MadKeithV
No, AD&D was a pen-and-paper system, followed by AD&D 2nd Edition, now followed by 3rd Edition (called D&D again, just to confuse people).

But the first widely accepted computer implementations emerged with the AD&D 2nd Edition rules.

I think the first computer game was an "rpg" of sorts - Hack the amulet of Yendor in fact. A rogue-like game (somewhat like diablo).

I see. Well arn''t these rogue-like games the best interpretation of D&D (and therefore RPG)? Since that is the actual goal D&D tried to achive in the 70s?

"Everything has a reason."

MadKeithV

992

September 13, 2002 09:32 AM

Is the Ford T the best implementation of the car because it was "first"? (I know it wasn''t, but the analogy serves).

Roleplaying evolved from wargaming. D&D was the first to be called Roleplaying, but it didn''t stop evolving. In the end, D&D is a very poor role-playing game, and has been improved significantly since in newer editions and by other designers (check out the multitude of other systems, such as the World of Darkness, Earthdawn, MERPS, GURPS, Warhammer FRP, Ars Magica,...)

It's only funny 'till someone gets hurt.And then it's just hilarious.Unless it's you.

Shambles

122

Author

September 13, 2002 09:32 AM

quote:Original post by iNfuSeD
no but u see.. rpg''s are nothing more then playing a role of someone else..

I''ve found that the acronym is more symbolic than anything.. Playing the role of someone else can range from playing super mario bros. for the NES, to the any other game in which you control other characters.

"Everything has a reason."

Sandman

2,211

September 13, 2002 09:38 AM

quote:Original post by Shambles
In closing..
RPG = type of gameplay which doesn''t require a ''Japanese Epic'' type of story.

WTF?

By your logic, Tetris is an RPG. I think this conclusively proves that your definition is stupid.

There are two basic definitions for an RPG - the computer industry standard definition, and the roleplayers definition.

Computer Industry Definition: Any strongly story based game which involves a large number of ''stats'' and quite possibly ''levelling''. Also, anything that vaguely involves goblins, orcs, wizards or elves probably belongs at least partly in this category.

Roleplayers Definition: A game in which the player assumes the role of a character, and develops that character in a believable way. Usually, a good story will provide the backdrop and motivation for the development of this character, as well as testing the player to see how well he can fit into his chosen ''role''.

Note that since the first one does not necessarily include roleplaying, it is not a terribly good definition of a game genre known as Role Play Games. Sadly, it is probably the more widely used definition of the two.

Shambles

122

Author

September 13, 2002 09:42 AM

quote:Original post by MadKeithV
Is the Ford T the best implementation of the car because it was "first"? (I know it wasn't, but the analogy serves).

Roleplaying evolved from wargaming. D&D was the first to be called Roleplaying, but it didn't stop evolving. In the end, D&D is a very poor role-playing game, and has been improved significantly since in newer editions and by other designers (check out the multitude of other systems, such as the World of Darkness, Earthdawn, MERPS, GURPS, Warhammer FRP, Ars Magica,...)

I dont know a thing about old cars so you got me there

.
But the goal D&D set didn't seem like wargamming. D&D tried to simulate a scenario where a party of heroes are faced with a task or quest. The old 'Japanese RPGs' used a sort of a enemy party vs. player party scheme where the characters had static positions and could not really move or have their attack points decreased from attacking the enemy at angles which had walls in the way. What I mean to say is, RPG should really be a name for that 'type' of battle system which I'm sure the games you listed evolved from. Perhaps I should have communicated this in my first post...

[edited by - Shambles on September 13, 2002 10:43:47 AM]

"Everything has a reason."

iNfuSeD

128

September 13, 2002 09:42 AM

quote:Original post by Shambles
I''ve found that the acronym is more symbolic than anything.. Playing the role of someone else can range from playing super mario bros. for the NES, to the any other game in which you control other characters.

controlling a lil mario on the screen an jumping around on mushrooms is quite different from what role playing is. role playing is where u become the other character. u live in the fictional world as that character. you train that character. you go about your daily routines as that character. you ARE that character. digital RPG''s try to emulate this as much as they can. with the limited power of old computers, it is understandable why they couldn''t even come close, only thing is they haven''t evolved to emulate it any further at all. rpgs today are built off the same frame work that was set up in the age of the NES and are evolving more an more into what i would consider interactive movies/novels

"The human mind is limited only by the bounds which we impose upon ourselves." -iNfuSeD

"The human mind is limited only by the bounds which we impose upon ourselves." -iNfuSeD

pwd

122

September 13, 2002 09:43 AM

quote:Original post by MadKeithV
I think the first computer game was an "rpg" of sorts - Hack the amulet of Yendor in fact. A rogue-like game (somewhat like diablo).

Erm, you meant to say "Rogue", right? That''s where the term "rogue-like" came from. Hack, Temple of Apshai, Diablo, Fallout, Ultima, etc... originated from that point.

As far as I''m concerned, if you''re looking for more of a "role-playing" experience on the computer, you''re most likely to find that in some of the better Interactive Fiction titles out there. If you can stand to play games with prose instead of graphics, check out some of the more recent (all freeware) stuff out there like Photopia, So Far, Spider and the Web, etc.

For Mother GameDev!

MadKeithV

992

September 13, 2002 09:44 AM

quote:Original post by Shambles
RPG should really be a name for that ''type'' of battle system which I''m sure the games you listed evolved from.

In a word, no.

RPGs have a multitude of battle systems (both CRPGs and pen and paper).

It's only funny 'till someone gets hurt.And then it's just hilarious.Unless it's you.

Shambles

122

Author

September 13, 2002 09:47 AM

quote:Original post by Sandman
By your logic, Tetris is an RPG. I think this conclusively proves that your definition is stupid.

Sorry, I should be more clear... When I say "type of gameplay" I mean a whole individual type of gameplay which came from D&D.

"Everything has a reason."

Sandman

2,211

September 13, 2002 09:51 AM

quote:Original post by Shambles
Sorry, I should be more clear... When I say "type of gameplay" I mean a whole individual type of gameplay which came from D&D.

...you mean the whole ''taking on the role of a character'' gameplay?

Or are you trying to suggest that RPG == hack and slash?

what an RPG really is

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what an RPG really is

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