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Death CS technologies, Raise of DirectX and Microsoft?

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and while OpenGL is stuck on 1.2, DirectX is up to numero eight, maybe I''m wrong, but more and more games are coming out with DirectX and/or Glide support, the release of new Voodoos won''t help either, it seems as though OpenGL is left for professoinal apps developers... whatever happened to the Fahrenheit project? there are even more APIs on the way, I mean you can do so much with C++, which is dying out as well, and its supposed successor, Java, already molested and mutilated by Bill, ain''t for 3d... And what about the feature in DirectX 8 that will manage an installation process for you, meaning that if you don''t have enough space on your hard drive, it will delete part of the another DirectX 8 software in order to install the program? (errr...how about not making 600MB word processor, Bill?) this is nutz, crazy and *fucked up, I thought Micro$oft lost the lawsuit? one more reason to hate them and the lawyers... but then again, we are to blame we buy their stuff (although I warez every MS program I have), granted they published some good games as of late, but...then again, if you look at the alternatives, the penguin? I thought the days of typing commands were over... and don''t get me started on the window managers, shit, they do look pretty with all those cute transparent x-term windows, but I can''t do shit with that nor can I find my way around... BeOS, what''s the use for a system that can''t make my mouse or my GeForce work... Good thing in this world todays is AMD, kudos to the blokes and girls over at AMD labs for coming out with some top quality stuff and deciding not to use their chip in the MS gaming console, and a ''finger'' to NVIDIA for selling their chip to MS, although it the console will suck (no support for both PC an the g.box? fuck you Bill)... to be continued... cheers, onepaul. since this post has exceeded my standard 55 character posts, I will not check for syntax and logic errors, cheers #2... Totalgl3

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You have just earned yourself a personal flamethrowing, attached to your arse and aiming inwards.

They should have won that lawsuit.
Windows is theirs. It belongs to no one else, and to use it is a privalege that they can, by law, take away from us.
No one -should- be able to tell them that no, they can''t make their software however they wish. Isn''t that some amendment or something?
You don''t need to use DirectX. You don''t need to install it. You don''t need to buy Windows.
But people, such as myself, do. And we LIKE the fact that we now no longer have to buy Internet Explorer seperately, or as it is now, spend aoubt a year downloading it.

It is their software, and they should be able to do whatever the hell they want with it.
Too many people buy it, therefore monopoly. Your justice system can kiss my ass.

But I''m not here to flame, I''m just here to tell you:
1. No one cares about your flame.
2. Because of number 1, don''t post here.
3. Your reasons are for the most part unfounded.
4. Here''s a kitchen table, take a jerkoff under it.


The_Minister

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hmm... I was sure the cuss words would get star-ed out, example, you''re a fucken twat, would become, you''re a ****en twat (that a flame ), anyway, unfounded reasons? those are facts of life dummy (flame #2), you probably did not read the whole post, or you have a short term memory of an african ant (flame #3)...

cheers,
onepaul

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Since there seems to be a problem formulating coherent responses to dumb questions, I''ll take that responsability on me.

1. OpenGL stuck on 1.2.
Well, SGI can''t help it that they got it RIGHT the first time, and didn''t need 8 friggen versions to "improve" the original design!
2. The Fahrenheit project.
No longer SGI/Microsoft, it will be a part of a new version of DirectX ( The Fahrenheit Scene graph anyway ). However, SGI and a bunch of other important companies are working on something much better that should be done by 2001 if I''m correct - OpenML ( [A HREF="http://www.khronos.org"] Khronos [/A] ). This will be the open version of DirectX, and might just be platform independent if we''re lucky.
3. C++ Dying out.
What planet are you from? Certainly not this one! Last time I checked C++ was anything BUT dying out. Java is a good language, but it never really made a dent in the language market because of bad native support. C++ is a good programming language - it serves a specific purpose, just like VB and Java do. ( And Lisp, Haskell, Prolog, Occam, etc etc etc ).
4. Everything else.
Tssssss... Flaming something you don''t know is never a very good sport you know.



#pragma DWIM // Do What I Mean!
~ Mad Keith ~
**I use Software Mode**

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quote:
Original post by The_Minister
They should have won that lawsuit.
Windows is theirs. It belongs to no one else, and to use it is a privalege that they can, by law, take away from us.
No one -should- be able to tell them that no, they can''t make their software however they wish. Isn''t that some amendment or something?
You don''t need to use DirectX. You don''t need to install it. You don''t need to buy Windows.
But people, such as myself, do. And we LIKE the fact that we now no longer have to buy Internet Explorer seperately, or as it is now, spend aoubt a year downloading it.

It is their software, and they should be able to do whatever the hell they want with it.
Too many people buy it, therefore monopoly. Your justice system can kiss my ass.
The_Minister


You have spoken words that are very wise.

MICROSOFT RULES!!!!!

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by nes8bit

MICROSOFT RULES!!!!!


Note: That is no joke.

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is there a genetic problem that prevents you guys from posting a reply longer than 1 line that actually contains new information?


#pragma DWIM // Do What I Mean!
~ Mad Keith ~
**I use Software Mode**

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quote:
Original post by The_Minister
Windows is theirs. It belongs to no one else, and to use it is a privalege that they can, by law, take away from us.
No one -should- be able to tell them that no, they can''t make their software however they wish.


Uh, no one is complaining about how they made their software, it is about the issue of dependence.

Since most of the populous who use PC''s, use Windows, it is natural to assume (YES ASSUME) that since most people are unlike ourselves (only 4,500 registered last look) they will follow the choice of M$ and use the IE browser that comes with it.

Such is the dispute. Since most people are mindless cows following each other around, M$ figured it could sweep up the competition. If you take any note of any kind of facts, when Netscape 4.0 was released, Netscape had 85% of the browser market. In the course of a year, from when Win98 was released, it switched to IE 60+ and Netscrape 30. Look it up on CNET, the figures are there.

So, get the news straight and stop spoting M$ propoganda.












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Aah now I see. Down here in the middle of no where we don''t get a lot of news, just that MS lost a sherman lawsuit.

So people are complaining, that because they''re mindless cows they aren''t able to use what they want to, Microsoft shouldn''t be tricking them into using their evil software by making Windows better by integrating it with Explorer, which not only reduces the size of Windows itself, but allows them to make IE a fully-fledged ''explorer''.

Or is the justice department complaining that because people are cows, they will always buy
A: The most common software (nothing against you linux and mac users).
B: The most publised software.
C: The most supported software.

And if it happens to come with IE, that''s great! I love IE. Although I''ve never spent the time to download Netscape, why should I? I already have IE, and it can do everything that Netscape can do, to the point that the only difference is the name.
Now if the other browsers could surpass IE, then we''d see...

My current version of IE is from the disk that I got from my ISP. They apparently preferred IE to Netscape, and don''t tell me ''it''s because they got it with Windows''.



The_Minister

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The problem is not as simple as you put it, Minister.

It''s this: Microsoft bundles internet explorer with windows, so-called "for free", but really it adds an additional cost to the Operating System.

A company such as Netscape, trying to compete in the browser market, now has trouble selling its product ( a web browser ), exactly because of normal people like you, that don''t see why they should get ANOTHER browser when they got one with the OS ( that they covertly payed for ).

That is Microsoft is abusing the fact that nearly everyone runs Windows to push another company out of business. That doesn''t mean that for a consumer it isn''t nice that Microsoft bundles a browser, but that they are abusing their monopoly position ( see the Findings of Fact ) to push a competing company out of business.


#pragma DWIM // Do What I Mean!
~ Mad Keith ~
**I use Software Mode**

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-=Brain fuzz slowly diintergrates=-

Damn why didn''t I see this before. My humble apologies.

Yes they are forcing us to buy Internet Explorer with Windows, and they aren''t offering to sell Windows without IE.
But are you sure they are charging us extra for it? Can''t you download IE for free?
Also Windows IS based on IE, and if I may say, I prefer it to the old ''My Computer'' way of doing things.

Still, if Netscape truly had a superior product, people would flock to it. And it is still Microsoft''s product, they can do whatever the hell they want.

If Netscape was truly superior, Microsoft would have BOUGHT it ages ago


The_Minister

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*grins* I think that when Microsoft was interested in buying netscape, they were too expensive, and incredibly anti-Microsoft.

Ps: I use both Internet Exploder and NetSheep, and my main browser is, sadly, I.E.



#pragma DWIM // Do What I Mean!
~ Mad Keith ~
**I use Software Mode**

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quote:
Original post by The_Minister

So people are complaining, that because they''re mindless cows they aren''t able to use what they want to, Microsoft shouldn''t be tricking them into using their evil software by making Windows better by integrating it with Explorer, which not only reduces the size of Windows itself, but allows them to make IE a fully-fledged ''explorer''.


Umm, what? You are entitled to like and use whatever software you like, but the ''integrated'' setup of Windows is not smaller! It is also slower and consumes more memory. Decoupling IE from the Windows kernel has been shown to bring performance benefits.

quote:

Or is the justice department complaining that because people are cows, they will always buy
A: The most common software (nothing against you linux and mac users).
B: The most publised software.
C: The most supported software.



I''ve never managed to get anything but arrogant replies from Microsoft personnel when attempting to get help. And their tendency to leave bug fixes until 6 months after they are discovered really grates. Personally, I consider ''most supported'' to mean ''fairly common updates'', which Netscape manage far better. Besides, the size of the MS Knowledge Base is not a good thing! Perhaps some of those errors should have been found prior to shipping...

quote:
And if it happens to come with IE, that''s great! I love IE. Although I''ve never spent the time to download Netscape, why should I? I already have IE, and it can do everything that Netscape can do, to the point that the only difference is the name.
Now if the other browsers could surpass IE, then we''d see...


If IE was so good, it would have stolen Netscape''s market share without MS having to employ dirty tricks. That was not the case. In my experience, IE5 still locks up far more often than Netscape 4, and I use both regularly. And their pathetic excuse for a program that is Media Player is laughable. I downloaded the latest version from their site and it still couldn''t seem to handle 1/2 the software that RealPlayer can.

quote:
My current version of IE is from the disk that I got from my ISP. They apparently preferred IE to Netscape, and don''t tell me ''it''s because they got it with Windows''.


Most ISPs prefer IE because Microsoft have given extensive ''bribes'' to such ISPs. Read the findings of fact in the recent case to see why this is.

I don''t mind IE coming on the Windows disk. But I should be able to uncheck a box to say not to install it, as I can for most other Windows components. I also do not want someone in MS HQ deciding to make my running of another browser "a jolting experience". Nor do I want MS bribing/blackmailing my local PC vendors not to stock Linux. When they stopped maintaining their market share through writing quality products and stooped to do it by any other means possible, that is when I lost respect for them and their practices.

There are many good things about certain MS products, and Windows. But they -have- overstepped the mark and something should be done about it. I think you should try reading the evidence that was uncovered during the course of this trial before you pass any further comment.

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all blame MS and keep using it !

i like windows, i like ie, MS offers ie free, now i have to buy it cause ppl that are loosing money cause have inferior products are afraid ?
come on, your stupid US courts do anything for some bucks, just look at hasbro.

i uses netscape and i prefer IE is that a crime ?

by the order of ideas.. huumm i bought my sblive and it came with unreal, that means ill not by halflife or quake 3 ? should unreal be separeted from sblive cause valve and id are afraid they will loose money ?

ppl, think, if something is given to us, and ppl like it, its not a monopoly, its business !

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quote:
Original post by Akura by the order of ideas.. huumm i bought my sblive and it came with unreal, that means ill not by halflife or quake 3 ? should unreal be separeted from sblive cause valve and id are afraid they will loose money ?


That is a complete compare of two distinct pieces of software. In order to run Unreal, don't you need a copy of Windows?

That is the point, you are dependant on Windows, so M$ figures, if we bundle our browser and make it so-called "intergrated" we can kill two birds with one stone.

What you descibe is a healthy system between those game vendors (valve, id, sierra, dynamix, etc... There are many companies competting for your dollar.

When it comes to OS, windows is the majority winner for entry level consumers. 90% of entry level consumer PC's come with windows attached. It is only now that we are beginning to see other markets enter the OS race. So hopefully, practices that M$ has now, will eventually not work.

The gov. wanted to slap them around much like Ma Bell back in the 70's. Bell had a cap on the phone market. Wanted a phone, you had no choice of who the provider was. I admit, and thank the great spirit in the sky, that M$ never will and never has gotten this far.

Thank the prophets for linux.

Edited by - Joviex on 4/21/00 6:04:34 PM

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Akura and The_Minister - Exactly what makes the courts in your countries so superior that you can say our suck? Granted, our legal system was definatly not prepared for the internet, and it was never perfect before, but it is still one of the best. I completely agree with Jackson''s decision. Microsoft is using it''s dominance in the marketplace to push it''s product furthur. Companies that sell PCS have no choice but to put windows on their system, or Microsoft will sell them windows at even more outragous rates. This is only one example of the illegal as hell things that they have done. Please learn a little about monopolies, the law and microsoft before you go rambling about things you don''t understand.


Mike

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1st, someone that sues a microwave company for not puttin in the manual not to put live animals inside a microwave and wins... DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH?!?!?
someon broke your finger nail ? court with them ! its the practise over there k ? its the truth !

ever heard of OEM ? u put it in a new computer and its half the price u dont want it? u dont buy it, simple, then u want to buy it later, face teh consequences and pay more ! its not only with windows, its with almost every hardware k?

lets see, windows comes with IE, but netscape works with windows, so if anyone wants to use netscape nothing stops them does it ? if i make a car and supply my own radios for free, does it take the customer the option of buying the new blackpunt or sony or whatever radio ? no, it gives him the choice of something that is free and decent to something that it isnt or has to be bought separatly.

damn it.

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quote:
Original post by Akura

1st, someone that sues a microwave company for not puttin in the manual not to put live animals inside a microwave and wins... DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH?!?!?
someon broke your finger nail ? court with them ! its the practise over there k ? its the truth !


I will agree with you on one point - US courts often do seem fairly stupid from the point of view of an outsider.

quote:
ever heard of OEM ? u put it in a new computer and its half the price u dont want it? u dont buy it, simple, then u want to buy it later, face teh consequences and pay more ! its not only with windows, its with almost every hardware k?


"Face the consequences"? I think that whole phrase sums it up. If I want to buy a stereo which plays most CDs, I have a choice. If I want to buy a car which runs on most roads, I have a choice. If I want to buy a computer which runs most software... ''face the consequences''. Nice.

People need computers in this day and age. Accessories should be optional and chosen by the buyer, not mandatory and forced upon the vendor (and hence the buyer).

As for "it''s with almost every hardware", what are you trying to say?

quote:
lets see, windows comes with IE, but netscape works with windows, so if anyone wants to use netscape nothing stops them does it ?


Well actually, check the part in the Findings Of Fact which shows that MS deliberately tried to make Netscape run worse on Windows. Not to mention mountains of circumstantial evidence which shows that Netscape runs more stably without IE installed.

quote:
if i make a car and supply my own radios for free, does it take the customer the option of buying the new blackpunt or sony or whatever radio ? no, it gives him the choice of something that is free and decent to something that it isnt or has to be bought separatly.


I could remove your free radio from my new car and replace it in under an hour. Removing Internet Explorer from windows is Not Allowed, apparently! That is the problem. As I stated above, I don''t mind IE coming free on the Windows CD. Although some would say this is still illegal bundling, I don''t think it matters as long as (a) There is no condition to be forced to install it, and (b) Vendors do not -have- to have it preinstalled on their systems in order to sell Windows.

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quote:
Original post by Akura

all blame MS and keep using it !


Only cos my hands are tied.

quote:

i like windows, i like ie, MS offers ie free, now i have to buy it cause ppl that are loosing money cause have inferior products are afraid ?


Again, if Netscape was so inferior, why did MS have to turn IE into a lossmaking product in order to kill it?

quote:
by the order of ideas.. huumm i bought my sblive and it came with unreal, that means ill not by halflife or quake 3 ? should unreal be separeted from sblive cause valve and id are afraid they will loose money ?


Silly comparison. Firstly, Creative Labs make the SBLive, Epic/GT make Unreal. 2 different companies. Whereas Microsoft is one company, levering its success in one area to force success in another where it was not necessarily warranted through merit. Secondly, the last I checked, I didn''t actually require Unreal to run all my other software (although UnrealScript is certainly versatile ) Not to mention that there are many other sound cards on the market which iD or Valve can offer their games to. Thirdly, giving away games with sound cards is beneficial to the user: forcing them to integrate a buggy web-browser into their OS kernel is not beneficial (again, see findings of fact for reports on stability, memory use, etc). Fourthly, with every sound-card bundle I have ever seen, installing the games was optional. MS went out of their way to ensure that installing IE was mandatory.

It''s quite sad how public opinion seems to be swinging back behind Microsoft, mainly because they all seem to feel sorry for this ''great business'' being punished by ''vindictive rivals'' and an ''interfering government''. But just because the public may not -know- they''re being screwed, doesn''t mean they are not. The findings of fact is a lengthy and boring document, but I doubt anyone who read it all could still support Microsoft.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
I worked for a web design company for over a year, and they had to market their webpages for both IE and Netscape, and this is no lie... the developers HATED netscape with a passion, they hated version 3, 4, etc... half the time the HTML (and this is just standard html) would look different enough on both versions to warrant a re-write to accomodate netscape. Now you could say, well if Netscape were the browser of choice, they''d have hated IE, and pehraps you''re correct... but the fact of the matter is that it was not the browser of choice, neither by the company nor by 90% of the clients they represented... Secondly, on just about every PC we used IE 5.0 and Netscape, we found that netscape crashed at least twice as much as IE... there are some configurations in which IE does tend to crash more, but I haven''t seen many of those, although I''m sure they exist. (Windows 98 comes to mind for me

On the personal side, I tried out netscape under freebsd (hey I like unix enough to warrant learning it) and I have to say it was the most convoluted(sp?) browser I''ve ever used, configuring it was a total mess and setting up the email client with it was a horrid experience... I''m not the average Joe Blow when it comes to software or software development, so it wasn''t because I was too illiterate to set it up, it was just a damned mess. Personally, I think netscape is just an inferior product, I dont agree with Micorsoft''s marketing practices (the buying out of companies who are forging ahead on their own, etc...) and I think the 9x series of OSes are utter crap... but I find most of their other software (access 2000 excluded) to be quite good... DirectX is great, it''s a little obfuscated... ok, more than a little, it''s a mess But I find once you get past the bullshit and get into the guts of it, it''s quite good... as far as I know OpenGL has been around for a lot longer in 1 form or another, so I would expect it to be more refined, regardless of version #''s (I hate people who use that as an excuse) Correct me if I''m wrong, but wasn''t OpenGL written for/by SGI, who''s only business is graphics? If indeed I am correct, then I would expect OpenGL to be amazing... but yet, I dont find it any better (performance wise that is) than Direct3D, as for a learning curve, OpenGL has the be the greatest 3D API on the planet, it''s a joke to learn it... but, alas, I like the integration of Direct3D with it''s other counterpart DirectDraw, and I have to say, I get more satisfaction out of using Direct3D (and getting something written with it I dont know why, but I like to tear the guts out of things I think the whole OpenGL vs Direct3D thing should just shut the fuck up (pardon) and go on about writing 3D crap, instead of wasting your time replying to flames like these... oh and don''t point out the irony of arguing and wasting time to decry arguing wasting time, I''m well aware of it (Side Show Bob eat your heart out


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Just my two cents worth.
I have used both Netscape and Internet Explorer products since version 4 of each.
I liked the interface of Netscape 4 then, and as for performance wise, both are the same imo, except that Netscape has a sudden ''jerk'' when loading applets. And then I followed IE5, NS4.7, and then, being a web developer, got totally disgusted by the ''STANDARDS'' Netscape supports. IE adheres more to the ''STANDARDS'' than NS. Unconvinced? Hop on down to W3C and check the css tags. Tell me how many NS supports, and how IE supports.

And then I tried NS6. I have to say, It rocks compared to IE5. It would have been better if it doesn''t crash so often. I can almost redo the ''crash'' steps now.
As for IE, it''s been a long time since I crash it... hmmm.
Maybe NS6 release will be much better. Shrug


And for products. What''s the prefered Image tool? Photoshop? Paintshop Pro? I believe those are non-MS.
Web authoring? Dreamweaver blows it all I believe. C/C++ Compiler and IDE? Borland, code warrior and others are hard against VC++. In fact, a lot seem to prefer Borland or code warrior. Even IBM compiler at times.
Point? If NS is an excellent product, people would still flock to purchase it. *note*, purchase, not download. And the facts are rather there. NS is at most on par with IE. Even with the newer version, which imo I really liked the interface, they are still on par with functionality.(never explored much). Sure, blame MS for other companies not innovating. And then look at Macromedia, Adobe, and tell me other companies are not innovating.

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