>> I''m curious what you guys with industry experience think about the whole relocation issue...I''m sure some of the previous posters will say, "move to where the action is first, get a dishwasher/bartender/temp job and look for a game dev job later," but I''ve got to wonder if the situation is that extreme. Is it?<<

I also came out of the Midwest. I wouldn''t say the situation is that extreme, but it certainly doesn''t hurt. All the companies I''ve ever dealt with will indeed fly you out and set you up in a hotel for the night to interview you if they are seriously interested. At least any company of any decent size(30+ people).

So, if you''ve got the goods then you don''t necessarily NEED to live in the area. However, having said that, being in an area with a lot of game companies helps a lot for two reasons, which I''ll elaborate on:

1. If a company is looking for someone and a few people apply that all have a similar amount of experience, they''re liable to check out the local people first. Not only is it less money(no plane + hotel), but it''s less hassle....all they gotta do is have you come out. No need to have a lot of communication first to make sure you''re worth flying down, no bother setting up hotels and airline tickets....just come in Friday afternoon. That''s it!

2. Many times it''s as much who you know as what you know. This is sad but true. There are a lot of people with similar experience out there, but if someone at work knows a guy who does shader programming and we''re looking for a shader programmer, then the company is more likely to check them out before they look into unknown candidates. This makes the where you live part that much more important, because in an area with a lot of game companies almost everyone knows a few guys who do this, that, and the other thing. If you couple that with the instability of many game companies in todays climate along with the fact that most game companies have long hours and project frustrations, then that means that most people not only know a few guys, but they know at least a couple guys that are looking for a new job.

So, on one hand, no...you don''t NEED to live in an area with a lot of game companies, but on the other hand, it will increase your chances of landing a gig 1000%.

If you don''t live in an area that has a lot of game companies nearby, like yourself, then there are a number of things you can do to help make up for that:

1. Go to industry events like GDC, Siggraph, etc....and then be social

2. If there are user groups(IGDA, Siggraph, etc) anywhere near your area...go to them! Even if it''s something outside your field, check ''em out. For instance, you may be a a programmer but if there''s a 3D Studio user group in your area, you should check it out. While you may have no interest in 3D modeling, you may run into people that do contract work for game companies or people that have friends in game companies. Make friends!

3. Keep active on the web in areas like this, FlipCode, etc where game developers hang out. If you stay active, people will start to remember you. Being virtual friends with people in game companies is a close second to knowing them in person

....basically, you can do it. It just takes time, determination, hard work to prove yourself AND getting people to know and notice you for your skills and friendliness

>>I''ve got a demo, a CS degree, and I''m willing to move just about anywhere to get a game programming job. But, judging on the small number of responses I''ve received, I''ve got to wonder if employers even look at my resume once they see where I''m from. In this market, is it even possible to find a company that will consider your resume if it involves relocation?<<

Like I said above yes...but with those caveats. Oh...one more thing, timing often plays a HUGE role in breaking into the industry. If you send your resume out right after a company has just finished staffing up it''s team, they may not even look at your stuff. However, if you send it in when they''re desperate to staff up for a new project, then you may get much more of a notice. So, be aware, a good part of the breaking in requires persistance in keeping people aware that you''re available....just don''t keep sending the same thing to the same place every 2 months

I checked out your demo and it looks pretty good! Although it''s no technical or graphic marvel, it does show that you can handle the many different aspects of making a game. Keep at it, keep polishing your stuff up, and you''ll make it

Good luck!

-John

>>The first thing *anybody* trying to get into the industry should learn is that the bottom line holds here just like it does everywhere else in the business world. Idealism is fine and dandy for hobbyists, but anybody thinking about doing this for a living needs to leave their idealism at home; it''s not wanted in the office.<<

I''d agree that that''s mostly realistic advice. However, I certainly don''t think I''d go as far as to say that idealism isn''t wanted in the office. You gotta keep yourself realistic, as opposed to overly optimistic, but don''t let the corporate master kill your spirit too quickly. That kind of thinking only leads to the Hollywood blockbuster me-too kind of dribble

-John

quote:Original post by d000hg
I''m interested in an earlier post which seemed to go un-answeered, about many companies having people doing long hours but very little work. I''m as lazy as the next guy, and happy to do little for much money but not if it means having no time with my wife (or she will be by then) because I''m in 16hours a day to do 4 hours work.
1)Is this really that common?

Depends on where you are in the development process. At the company I wored at there were times when some people spend a good bit of time playing the latest game that was out. During crunch times it wasn''t uncommon for people to be there for over 12 hours. Usually though, if there''s not much work to be done (rare, if things are going well) then you don''t put in overtime (unless you want to).

quote:Original post by d000hg
2)In such places is there an official start/end to the day or do you just come and go as you please?

Most companies are pretty lax about start and end times as long as your there when you need to be (meetings for example).

quote:Original post by d000hg
3)Can I just do my day''s work (7-8hrs) and leave please to see my wife?!

Usually, yes. Like I said before, crunch times may mean you need to be there for extended periods of and and possibly during the weekend. It''s the nature of the industry so if you don''t think you can handle it, you might want to look at another industry.

Just a bit of a heads up. Watch for companies that release plans to make a game. Usually around that time they will be looking for new people in all areas, including entry level programmers. I know Blizzard was looking for some when they began WOW. Same thing when they began D2. Their requirements are a bs and little experience for the entry level, and, what ruins it for most, locating to the vacinity of the company building that is handling that part of the project.

If all else fails, fall back on some other job to bring in income, and try to make a game and get it published. Whether on your own or with a team, a lot of people like to start companies and a handful of them do alright.

~Rasidian.
"''Grat is not nice, indeed!"

So my question is.. why don''t you just use this engine to complete a game? Take that completed game and market it, sell it, and then you can say you have that professional experience. It''s at that point that you understand what it takes to make and produce a game in its entirety. That''s what the companies want.

Kevin "Khawk" Hawkins
CEO and News Director, GameDev.net
Software Engineer, Raydon Corporation
Author, OpenGL Game Programming
Developer Diary

$0.02 from an industry guy (coming up on 6 years now) who also does programmer hiring interviews.

- College degree == great, but not entirely necessary. It shows that you are capable of seeing a significant undertaking through, -and- that you''re probably not a total dumbass. Almost all programming hires we make have a 4 year college degree, typically CS. That said, one of the two guys who started the company back in ''93 never even graduated high school. Don''t take that as advice though!

- demo == really really great. A well present demo is probably your most valuable asset coming into the interview. It doesn''t have to be a whiz-bang graphics fest. A solid Defender, or a Pac Man is going to impress quite a bit. In fact, I would say someone who comes in with something very very simple, original and fun is going to be much more impressive than someone who comes in with a glitz-packed GF4 effects fest.

- Experience vs. no-experience. In my experience, when looking for hires you''re typically either looking for a rookie to bring in at a junior level, or a very experienced guy to handle a significant role. I''d say we average something like 5 rookies for every "senior" type. There''s been some questionable advice given on this thread about the necessity of professional programming experience. Yeah, if you''re applying as a total rookie looking for position as "engine designer" your application will probably go in the circular file. But having zero professional experience certainly isn''t a stumbling block. I give semi-regular talks to University students at the local college and I always tell them that its not really as tough to get a game industry job as you might think. Do -not- be intimidated.

- Timing. A good bet about why you haven''t gotten anything back is because of the state of the industry. If you''re looking for a position at a PC game company at the moment, don''t hold your breath. It totally behooves you to do your own research on the companies you plan on applying to. See where they are, and where they''re going, where they''ve been. Even worse than not getting a job is getting a job with a dead-end company. If you manage to find a company willing to hire you as a rookie for the "engine programmer" position, run away - they''re probably a disaster waiting to happen.

The point was not that game companies should not try to make a profit. Rather that it is a poor business plan to do it at the expense of customer satisfaction. Whatever short term gaines it might get you in the short run is going to cost you in the long run. I suppose anyone that would say "It''s done when it''s done" isn''t serious about the business of developing games.