I opened this thread, and what did I see? Some guy bashing C/C++ as not being real programming. WTF? In what the hell did you think Microsoft coded Windows? Sure as hell not in assembly. Windows 95 was like a 4 million lines of code. In C++. Think you could that in assembly? Go ahead, do it. Thats like saying I''ll program in binaries!

Oh and BTW people: Its ASSEMBLY for the language and
ASSEMBLER for the compiler.

Yeeessh

Oh and for the original question: VSC++ is better for Windows development.

Dear bogdanontanu,

it sounds like you''re thinking that VisualC hides the actual programming from you, like VB does (where you''re sitting in a dialog editor drag-dropping your gui together).
However, this is not the case in VC. You''ve got a text editor with complete control over everything. By default, not a single line of code is generated by visualc and it will compile all files as they are just as if you had called the compiler via command-line.
The graphical GUI editor which makes the thing ''visual'' is _disabled_ by default, and there are no influences from it in the background or something like that
Besides the better IDE, it is the same as using DJGPP with RHIDE for DOS.

So far I agree with you, playing around with ActiveX, OCX controls and other funky windows stuff is no programming, you''re not knowing what is happening behind those interfaces so you can''t control it!

Here is a screenshot of VC showing the default IDE with the project tree to the right:
VisualC screenshot #1 (~20kb)

This one shows fullscreen mode, this time with the class view to the right, which allows you to quickly jump to any function/class in your project
VisualC screenshot #2 (~20kb)

As I''ve written, it is not good without thinking because everyone uses it -- it is good because of its quality. It runs very stable, compiles to fast code and has a solid IDE. It is also more bug-free than most other compilers, including gnu-c (the linux c compiler) from which DJGPP derived.

--

Whatever, it''s great that you''ve put together a list of pros and contras, most people would''ve gotten angry and flamed around

If you''re really able to create such a large project like a RTS game in asm and even use it for AI this is great.

Btw, the link to the free BorlandC 5.5 download:
http://www.borland.com/bcppbuilder/freecompiler

-Markus-

Thank You Markus
For not flameing on me...like others

Now this will be the last flame from me on this subject
(unless smbdy is intrested ..then use bogdanontanu@yahoo.com)

First of ALL : I HAVE MY OWN SOFTWARE COMPANY and i did lots of programming...so i think i may have my oppinnions
don''t I?

-And yess it is a SMALL COMPANY but ii IS... do u C guys own companys? ond make ur life from it?

-and yesss i dont know to type very correctly in English...but i know ...
du u guye know to type Romanian...? (my language)

i dont have more to say...everybody can do as he pleases dont we all...?
so:
IMHO C/C++ is not good...and yess i know Windows is done in C...(and Linux ) and maybe thats why Windows crashes so much and is so slow...and then maybe not....

My opinnion is that C/C++ i a bad language ..
Pascal is far better but FORTH is the best...for me (i have to say it again and again)

And yess we all profs. have to go to ASM from time to time if we want speed to do more so i chose to do it form start.

I can explain this with "real life probes" (Windows for ex.)
but i think this is beyond the ideea of this Forum

Some more technical stuff...
If C++ dosent hide it from programmers did u know
(found it programming in asm)
1. Window is not preemtive Multitasking at all?

2. All params in windows API are send to stack like this
push param_1
push param_2...
push param_n
Call Some_windows_function
(now is this not Forth stack machine? params i mean..)

3.COM/DirectX/CORBA is all an double pointer stuff like this:
mov eax,[lpdd]
push eax
mov eax,[eax]
call [eax+DDO_CreateSurface] (or whatever else fn number)

(big stuff..is this technology? or only
BUILDS>
4.Did u know there is no Class in Windows beyond this COM
unless u call a "Class" a structure with only one function
pointer in it and not even one method (WNDCLASSEX of course)

And many may others....

But Lets Stick to DirectX stuff from now on

PS And if u guys wanna see some ASM code...just let me know

Cheers to all,
and let the flames go down

just wanted to say THANK YOU BLAH! for saying that the language is Assembly and not Assembler. I know a bunch of truly excellent assembLY programmers who still call it assembLER. I can''t understand it!

Alex
Atypical Interactive
www.atypical-interactive.com

Ill throw my 2 cents in here.

Visual C++ is much more user freindly...and can be customized up the ying-yang to your likings.

Borland just feels...primitive to me. Maybe its just me, maybe some of you love borland.

As to whoever was talking about the ActiveX controls and all of that...I honestly do not know how to make a windows-ish program with the drag and drop stuff...i honestly dont like using it...any windows GUI stuff i do strctly from code.

He also said that vc++ uses apis like directX to draw things. Well...that has to be one of the most unthought-out things ive ever read. Unless you want to write your own rasterizer...this is how you do it.

Thirdly, you said that we cant talk because we arent making our living with a programming company. I have a feeling that you arent making your living on a programming company because you dontseem to have the programming knowledge needed. Also, a small company that makes any money as a small compnay obviously inst a gmae compnay...so why on earth are you in a conversation about game programming?

just think before you speak....

To Kylotan:
Yes, the Intel compiler is faster, it also contains the required headers and libs for Intel''s new Pentium III enhancements.
There''s an even faster one called VectorC, just don''t know the URL anymore.

To bogdanontanu:
Yes, of course anyone can use whatever he wants, and for object oriented programming, there even are better languages than C++.
Just wanted to say that VisualC is not ''visual'', that it is a true compiler

In my opinion, C is as low-level as a functional language can get. And I am a low-level guy, I build everything from the ground up, from font-system to scripting language.

> If C++ dosent hide it from programmers did u know
> (found it programming in asm)
> 1. Window is not preemtive Multitasking at all?
Sounds like you''re saying this is thing of the programming language, but you''re probably meaning that most C programmers didn''t even notice this fact.

Did you know preemptive multitasking was invented using C ?

(btw. yes, I''ve noticed, and OS/2 had by far the best multitasking I''ve seen so far)

> 2. All params in windows API are send to stack like this
> push param_1
> push param_2...
> push param_n
> Call Some_windows_function
> (now is this not Forth stack machine? params i mean..)

> 3.COM/DirectX/CORBA is all an double pointer stuff like this:
> mov eax,[lpdd]
> push eax
> mov eax,[eax]
> call [eax+DDO_CreateSurface] (or whatever else fn number)
> (big stuff..is this technology? or only BUILDS>

Some standards where needed so every compiler can call those windows functions. Of course, you can write your function params to the registers and directly use them, but then again it''s hardcoded.
In VC we just switch to fastcall (or directly specify it for any function) and the parameters will be passed via EAX...EDX in all functions we''ve written ourselfes.

> 4.Did u know there is no Class in Windows beyond this COM
> unless u call a "Class" a structure with only one
> function pointer in it and not even one method
> (WNDCLASSEX of course)
You lost me here...
VisualC MFC is based on the std C++ library in which every object is derived from CObject, as is OWL (object windows library) of BorlandC. Of course the Windows API itself also contains a complete C interface which you''ll be using if you''re calling a Windows API function from asm.
The ANSI C++ standard contains exact definitions even on how a method pointer to a class members function has to be aligned in memory and BC as VC follow these standards.
(On the other side, all of Linux was written in plain C)

If forth had gotten standard (or something like ML), perhaps windows wouldn''t have as much bugs as it has now. This just demonstrates how low-level C is, in asm the risk of such mistakes (like corrupting memory) is even greater.

--

Uh, this post is getting very long again

I think noone wants to blame you for using asm or any other language, but sometimes it appears as if you haven''t yet worked seriously with C.
Again, this isn''t your thing but still you shouldn''t have said that visualc isn''t good for games. The games I''ve listed in my first post are the ones I can guarantee for being written in VC.
Just people have used C since decades for games, databases, also device drivers on all kinds of systems. If a standard keeps up for so long and spreads that widely, there must be something good in it :D

(of course, this is only my humble oppionion!)

-Markus-

P.S.
Didn''t see anyone saying anything against you english.
But I''ve noticed that all ranks have disappeared ? Anyway, this board had lots of problems lately, some posts seemed to have 0 replies while there were plenty of... strange.