Here''s a little adjustment to the usual Final Fantasy style/menu driven combat that should add some gameplay.
So it CoolDude turn to attack... so you go to attack in the menu. Instead of simply attacking, a new menu pops up: low, normal, high.
Normal: this is your normal boring attack... always hits for relatively the same amount of damage (if it hits).
Low: this is a weaker (perhaps faster attack) that hits for at least 50% less damage.
High: this is a stronger (perhaps slower attack) that hits for at least 200% damage.
To make it interesting, monsters (and players) would have a blocking stance: high or low. If they were blocking low, a low attack would do hardly any damage... if blocking high, a high attack would do hardly any damage.
Any smart monster would be blocking high, but you could "force" a monster into blocking low by attack him low a few times. Think: setting him up for a high attack.
Say it took 2 low hits to move MONSTER our of blocking high. If your third attack was a high attack, you wouuld get double damage.
But wait, you''re thinking. I give up 50% of my damage two turns (a whole turn of damage) to attack for double the next turn. It evens out. Yes. But No. Not if you have two weak characters attack low, and your uber-character attack high.
Also, you could consider that a player attacking low (maybe defensively) would TAKE less damage... and a player attacking high (offensively) would TAKE more damage... or be considered blocking low or whatever.
... stay tuned for a similar idea for magic ...
- Jason
console rpg: adding reaction in fights
Doesn''t it suck that Fighter characters can hack away forever, but Magic characters need to keep track of MP. Well you might say it''s for balance, and it is, but I''d like to think my level 80 wizard can still cast Fire1 with no MP. So...
Give a Magic character 5 free MP to use each turn. So on the first turn of battle, your Magician could use Fire1 or Cure1 with those 5 MP. Also, she could use Cure2 with those 5 mp and 5 of her own.
But, let her not cast anyspell. Let her "wait" or "charge" or "meditate" or "concentrate"... and next turn give her twice as many MPs to play with.
Now round two, she has 10 Mps, and can cast that FIRE2 for free. Or if she waits until turn 3, she''ll have 20 MPs to cast FIRE3.
This system has the added benifit of allowing for different types of spell casters... those with a lot of MPs, to take out the big guns early, but would need to rest, and those who can channel their magic faster, or those who have a wider variety of magic, but no MPs, so they have to build up spells.
Some FF games have done things like this with a "concentrate", "charge", or "store" command, but never well I thought. It could really be exploited and made an intergral part of the battle system.
- Jason
Give a Magic character 5 free MP to use each turn. So on the first turn of battle, your Magician could use Fire1 or Cure1 with those 5 MP. Also, she could use Cure2 with those 5 mp and 5 of her own.
But, let her not cast anyspell. Let her "wait" or "charge" or "meditate" or "concentrate"... and next turn give her twice as many MPs to play with.
Now round two, she has 10 Mps, and can cast that FIRE2 for free. Or if she waits until turn 3, she''ll have 20 MPs to cast FIRE3.
This system has the added benifit of allowing for different types of spell casters... those with a lot of MPs, to take out the big guns early, but would need to rest, and those who can channel their magic faster, or those who have a wider variety of magic, but no MPs, so they have to build up spells.
Some FF games have done things like this with a "concentrate", "charge", or "store" command, but never well I thought. It could really be exploited and made an intergral part of the battle system.
- Jason
Dymetrix, that''s a neat system, somewhat reminiscent of the Tactics Ogre MP system. Everyone starts with 0 MP, and each turn you gain some depending on your various skills etc., or you can use an item to boost it artificially. That way, you never really "run out" of MP, but the super-tough mages can''t use their hard-core magic for the first few turns. If you want to start out with a rocking magic attack, you have to waste some other bruiser''s turn potioning up your wizard. It added good depth to the magic casting system. Also, there were no "casting delays", where your guy stands there chanting for fifteen minutes. I''ve always disliked that feature. If the spell system is based on reciting incantations, then everyone should be able to do it, and if not, then the time it takes to cast them should be fairly brief.
Say, what games include a "fizzle" possibility, whereby a spell can just not work, or even go wrong, with random effects? I think it would be neat for your guy to screw up a spell now and again depending on his skill and the difficulty of the magic in question, and have either nothing at all happen or something quite different from the efeect intended.
Say, what games include a "fizzle" possibility, whereby a spell can just not work, or even go wrong, with random effects? I think it would be neat for your guy to screw up a spell now and again depending on his skill and the difficulty of the magic in question, and have either nothing at all happen or something quite different from the efeect intended.
I like the idea of naturally regenerating magic pools, but it does raise concerns about game balance - at the moment, in FF games, I find that the long-term limiting resource on party survival is my spell-casters'' MP - casting curative magic from the menu screen effectively converts MP directly into HP at a very favourable rate. The two ways I game over are by taking on an opponent that can kill me in a single fight and by straying too far away from inns, running out of MP, using up my tents, ethers, elixirs, potions, etc. and getting KOed by some random bite bug or similar... OK, so I don''t think this has ever actually happened to me, so I guess under current conditions, you effectively have unlimited HP anyway - it''s not like you can''t restore HP/MP to max easily enough... in fact, it''s not all that often that I even use ether any more... but if you want to allow death by attrition, then you do want to limit magical healing in some way. On the other hand, I tend to under-use spell-casting in FF games anyway - mostly because I regard them primarily as an HP reserve (except in FFVIII where I''m happy to use obsolete spells (those I no longer want to junction))
Anyway, enough rambling... some interesting ideas on magic systems (mostly lifted from AD&D material):
Signature spells: if a particular character typically casts a particular spell or class or family of spell, maybe they should get bonuses with it (possibly with penalties for opposed spells). This can also help character development - one p/p character I played had a Create Water spell, which ended up being used for just about everything, and was one of the things that still makes the character stand out in my mind.
Channelled mana: a character can only store a small amount of mana (possibly 0) for non-immediate use (within a fight?). To cast a spell, the caster has to draw mana from the surroundings - what type and how much is available would depend on the location as well as caster level - so inside a volcano, fire spells would be very easy to cast, while water/ice would be hard (slower/reduced effect)
Partial learning/overcharging: in systems where characters learn spells rather than getting them handed down from on high, they could attempt to cast partially learnt spells/not yet mastered spells either at reduced effect or with risk of fizzling/backfiring. Similarly, spells with variable power could be attempted at levels beyond current caster ability with a risk of fizzling/backfiring. This could go well with signature spells...
Anyway, enough rambling... some interesting ideas on magic systems (mostly lifted from AD&D material):
Signature spells: if a particular character typically casts a particular spell or class or family of spell, maybe they should get bonuses with it (possibly with penalties for opposed spells). This can also help character development - one p/p character I played had a Create Water spell, which ended up being used for just about everything, and was one of the things that still makes the character stand out in my mind.
Channelled mana: a character can only store a small amount of mana (possibly 0) for non-immediate use (within a fight?). To cast a spell, the caster has to draw mana from the surroundings - what type and how much is available would depend on the location as well as caster level - so inside a volcano, fire spells would be very easy to cast, while water/ice would be hard (slower/reduced effect)
Partial learning/overcharging: in systems where characters learn spells rather than getting them handed down from on high, they could attempt to cast partially learnt spells/not yet mastered spells either at reduced effect or with risk of fizzling/backfiring. Similarly, spells with variable power could be attempted at levels beyond current caster ability with a risk of fizzling/backfiring. This could go well with signature spells...
Personally I don''t think the problem is a lack of ''reaction'' moves, because as has been said already, a lot of spells are reactive - healing, removing status ailments/negative effects, etc.
I think that perhaps what is lacking is two things: the need for anticipation, and the need for economy. Magic: The Gathering, in my opinion, has always played on these two points perfectly, and they work in harmony. When you use a spell, it''s gone forever, so every time you cast a spell you have to really weigh up the pros and cons of using it now against saving it for a possibly more important occasion later. The game is a tense balance between using spells now to gain an advantage and holding back spells for a better time to use them.
Most computer and console RPGs don''t have this. You tend to have a pool of mana points and can drain it with impunity. I rarely ever run out of mana in such games, even when using the super spells. You rarely have to worry about saving mana, never mind specific spells. Because you almost always have enough mana, and because most spells can be negated with a simple heal/dispel/whatever, you don''t need to anticipate anything. You just deal as much damage as you can around reacting to any pressing attacks. Rarely do you find yourself having to make a conscious choice about the best way to proceed.
Dungeons And Dragons-style games often have it so that you can only use a spell once per day, and that goes some way towards this goal. You also have to pick your available spells for any given day in advance, much like a Magic: The Gathering player picks their deck of cards from their entire collection. Perhaps forcing the player to make such strategic choices would be interesting? Perhaps you have to spend your mana points on buying spells for the day, rather than on casting them at the time. Perhaps choosing to take certain combinations of spells works out cheaper, but less versatile?
It doesn''t have to stop with the magic system. A fighter''s weapon, armour, and shield combination could be important and can''t be changed during battle. Instead of merely getting the items that raise the stats the most, there could be severe advantages and disadvantages to each type of item. Mainly I''m thinking in terms of reach, speed, damage type, blocking capability, etc. I''d like to see players wearing leather armour because that suits their strategy, not just because they couldn''t find ring mail yet. In essence, the choice of armour is like a Magic: The Gathering ''permanent'' because it lasts throughout the battle and shapes tactics regarding that character.
In a sense, the above ideas shift the balance more towards the long-term/strategic side. But you don''t have to lose all control during the actual battles providing that you still offer enough choice to the player.
[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost | Asking Questions | Organising code files | My stuff ]
I think that perhaps what is lacking is two things: the need for anticipation, and the need for economy. Magic: The Gathering, in my opinion, has always played on these two points perfectly, and they work in harmony. When you use a spell, it''s gone forever, so every time you cast a spell you have to really weigh up the pros and cons of using it now against saving it for a possibly more important occasion later. The game is a tense balance between using spells now to gain an advantage and holding back spells for a better time to use them.
Most computer and console RPGs don''t have this. You tend to have a pool of mana points and can drain it with impunity. I rarely ever run out of mana in such games, even when using the super spells. You rarely have to worry about saving mana, never mind specific spells. Because you almost always have enough mana, and because most spells can be negated with a simple heal/dispel/whatever, you don''t need to anticipate anything. You just deal as much damage as you can around reacting to any pressing attacks. Rarely do you find yourself having to make a conscious choice about the best way to proceed.
Dungeons And Dragons-style games often have it so that you can only use a spell once per day, and that goes some way towards this goal. You also have to pick your available spells for any given day in advance, much like a Magic: The Gathering player picks their deck of cards from their entire collection. Perhaps forcing the player to make such strategic choices would be interesting? Perhaps you have to spend your mana points on buying spells for the day, rather than on casting them at the time. Perhaps choosing to take certain combinations of spells works out cheaper, but less versatile?
It doesn''t have to stop with the magic system. A fighter''s weapon, armour, and shield combination could be important and can''t be changed during battle. Instead of merely getting the items that raise the stats the most, there could be severe advantages and disadvantages to each type of item. Mainly I''m thinking in terms of reach, speed, damage type, blocking capability, etc. I''d like to see players wearing leather armour because that suits their strategy, not just because they couldn''t find ring mail yet. In essence, the choice of armour is like a Magic: The Gathering ''permanent'' because it lasts throughout the battle and shapes tactics regarding that character.
In a sense, the above ideas shift the balance more towards the long-term/strategic side. But you don''t have to lose all control during the actual battles providing that you still offer enough choice to the player.
[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost | Asking Questions | Organising code files | My stuff ]
The big problem for game developers in making players take strategic decisions early (choice of equipment/spells) when the utility of combinations varies widely with conditions is that you then have to give players some idea of what to expect... in FF games, the elemental system already does this to some extent - if you''re wandering around in snow, it''s a fair bet that you don''t want ice elemental weapons - though in practice, I tend not to equip fire element in snowfields either because Square tend to throw in a few fire absorbing monsters in that sort of location. Some unrelated element is generally safest.
So, rather than come up with some way players can judge what they''re likely to need, developers tend towards letting players change to match the conditions in battle... and once you do that, drawbacks of specific items are pretty much negated...
I agree with what Kylotan said - fights have reaction in, but RPG players, in general, don''t want to play twitch reflex style games (if they did, they''d be playing FPSs) What''s lacking isn''t the reaction to enemy action, but the option to act in ways that actually influence the battle. In my experience, most fights in FF games are won beforehand on the menu screens, and there it''s a simple optimising game - in fact, the game even offers to do rough optimisation for you! If FF games can support Blitzball as a side-game, then surely they can produce something better than the current combat system.
So, rather than come up with some way players can judge what they''re likely to need, developers tend towards letting players change to match the conditions in battle... and once you do that, drawbacks of specific items are pretty much negated...
I agree with what Kylotan said - fights have reaction in, but RPG players, in general, don''t want to play twitch reflex style games (if they did, they''d be playing FPSs) What''s lacking isn''t the reaction to enemy action, but the option to act in ways that actually influence the battle. In my experience, most fights in FF games are won beforehand on the menu screens, and there it''s a simple optimising game - in fact, the game even offers to do rough optimisation for you! If FF games can support Blitzball as a side-game, then surely they can produce something better than the current combat system.
I''ve been working away at a console style RPG for years now...getting all my ideas down on paper...and I think I''ve come up with some unique ideas.
First off the game world isn''t the typical D&D influanced fantasy stuff...so some of this will seem strange.
Magic...is quite rare, but very,very powerfull...at the start of the game no characters have any magic abilities...and they can only get them from killing certain rare creatures (meening any character can have magic)...upon killing one of these creatures the character will recieve 100 magic points, and the ability to cast first level magic spells...killing a second creature gives the player 200 magic points and 2ed level spells...3rd creature 300MP, and 3rd level spells...etx....pretty simple...but here is the catch...the only way to regain magic points is by killing another of these creatures (if you can find one)...further, if the character ever finds him/herself with zero magic points...they transform into one of these magic provideing creatures...this wouldn''t seem very bad...but every day the character will lose a percentage of thier MP basied on the spell casting level (if you have killed three of these creatures, your spell level is 3...so every day you will lose 3% of your MP even if you don''t cast any spells)...Obviously, this makes magic abilities less desireable...which is the whole point...it makes the character very, very deadly...but also obsesive about finding these creatures to regain MP (at first) and later to simply stay alive (once the dayly MP loss percentage grows large enough)...
Additionaly monsters are just as unique...there is a wolf like creature with the ability to summon others (pretty common), it also has several special attacks...one of which is that with every 3rd successful attack it can perform a unblockable hit for 33% damage...when it does this, the individual wolf instantly "raises a level" depending on the number of wolves in the battle (3 wolves = raises 3 levels)...which meens that killing wolves as quickly as possable should be a priority...however with every "level-up" a particular wolf gains, the experience points increase as well...which provides a bit of stratigy (hold off from killing them so as to gain more experience points once they have leveled up...but how long can you hold out?).
The way I''m planning it every monster has simular special abilities...there is a "mind wurm" that will take control of a player character if attacked (meening that you must fight one of your team mates...this isn''t "confusion"...but full on possession)...other creatures work together to kill PCs (there are blue and red birds...a succesful blue bird attack on one character will allow a red bird to do perform a unstopable attack for twice the damage, and vice versa...a sucessful attack by one leaves the charactor wide open for an attack by the other)...right now there arn''t a whole lot of monsters...but there are a huge variety of differences between them...fighting one type on it''s own requires some different stratigies...but if two or more monster types work together, things can get hairy very quickly.
First off the game world isn''t the typical D&D influanced fantasy stuff...so some of this will seem strange.
Magic...is quite rare, but very,very powerfull...at the start of the game no characters have any magic abilities...and they can only get them from killing certain rare creatures (meening any character can have magic)...upon killing one of these creatures the character will recieve 100 magic points, and the ability to cast first level magic spells...killing a second creature gives the player 200 magic points and 2ed level spells...3rd creature 300MP, and 3rd level spells...etx....pretty simple...but here is the catch...the only way to regain magic points is by killing another of these creatures (if you can find one)...further, if the character ever finds him/herself with zero magic points...they transform into one of these magic provideing creatures...this wouldn''t seem very bad...but every day the character will lose a percentage of thier MP basied on the spell casting level (if you have killed three of these creatures, your spell level is 3...so every day you will lose 3% of your MP even if you don''t cast any spells)...Obviously, this makes magic abilities less desireable...which is the whole point...it makes the character very, very deadly...but also obsesive about finding these creatures to regain MP (at first) and later to simply stay alive (once the dayly MP loss percentage grows large enough)...
Additionaly monsters are just as unique...there is a wolf like creature with the ability to summon others (pretty common), it also has several special attacks...one of which is that with every 3rd successful attack it can perform a unblockable hit for 33% damage...when it does this, the individual wolf instantly "raises a level" depending on the number of wolves in the battle (3 wolves = raises 3 levels)...which meens that killing wolves as quickly as possable should be a priority...however with every "level-up" a particular wolf gains, the experience points increase as well...which provides a bit of stratigy (hold off from killing them so as to gain more experience points once they have leveled up...but how long can you hold out?).
The way I''m planning it every monster has simular special abilities...there is a "mind wurm" that will take control of a player character if attacked (meening that you must fight one of your team mates...this isn''t "confusion"...but full on possession)...other creatures work together to kill PCs (there are blue and red birds...a succesful blue bird attack on one character will allow a red bird to do perform a unstopable attack for twice the damage, and vice versa...a sucessful attack by one leaves the charactor wide open for an attack by the other)...right now there arn''t a whole lot of monsters...but there are a huge variety of differences between them...fighting one type on it''s own requires some different stratigies...but if two or more monster types work together, things can get hairy very quickly.
Say, anyone here play Wheel of Time? It''s a Unreal Tournament-engine-based game, an FPS, and it has a fairly complex magic system. I''m not sure how it works, never having played the game, but if anyone here has, and has some insight, I''m sure it would be appreciable. The books that it''s based on had a neat system, but it''s tough to describe...
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