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DaWookie

MS C++ .Net Unoptimized Compiler?

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Just curious if anyone out there can answer this. I am currently using MSVC++ 5 and am thinking about moving up to v7.0 or .NET as its called. The STANDARD edition has a "unoptimized compiler" and MS suggest "serious developers" purchase the studio level product which approaches the $1000 range as opposed to the $100 for the Standard. Is the unoptimized compiler really that big of a deal? What exactly isn''t being optimized? I can live with v5 and dx8.1 for now, but if I need/want to move to dx9 i know I have to move up to v6 or 7 of msvc++... For anyone using the newer compiler...whats ur take??? Thanks ahead for the info

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I''m curious to know about this too. If anyone by chance has both the Std and Pro for some reason, please post some benchies on a generic benchmark program.

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you don''t need both to do a comparison, just compile with optimizations turned off! while i couldn''t be bother benchmarking them, i can tell you that if your trying to do anything with much maths or access a lot of data (read game) then you really do want the optimizing compiler....unless of course you''ve got a P4 3GHz...

i''d imagine something like a tetris clone or perhaps even a simple RTS would run OK, but much more and you''ll be counting seconds per frame, not frames per second.

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Depends on where you bottlenecks are. My shadowing code is fillrate limited so no amount of cpu will cure that. I need faster gfx card. Also, some d3dx functions use 3dnow/simd instructions. In my case I use vc++6 std. and have no need for optimizing compiler at this point in time. You can always buy one when you''re nearly finished with your project then compile it w/optimizations. In normal dev cycle you''re going to be running debug libs/runtimes with bunch of asserts so optmizations are turned off or not desirable. Btw, I would try to optimize out algos instead of asm instructions because algos will have more of an impact on your speeds in my experience. After that hand tuned asm ''might'' speed up your code 2x fold or more depending on circumstances at work.

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The .NET SDK includes the standard C++ compiler. (it compiles unmanaged stuff just fine) You can get it for free, and try it out, if you''re so inclined. (and are brave enough to compile things without an IDE )

I''m hip because I say "M$" instead of "MS".

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Do you have MSVC++ 5, standard or professional? There is a upgrade for MSVC++ 5 prof.


http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/howtobuy/pricing.asp

Visual C++ .NET Standard (full) $109

Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition (full) $1,079

Visual Studio .NET Professional Upgrade $549

Customers who qualify for this upgrade price include licensed users of:
Visual C++, Professional Edition or Enterprise Edition, 5.0 or later


I wouldn''t buy this. These prices are outrageously ridiculous. Get MSVC 6.0++
and save yourself a couple hundred dollars.

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quote:
Is the unoptimized compiler really that big of a deal?


That depends on you. I would recommend against producing anything you intend to sell with VC++.NET Standard Edition. If you are just learning and will probably purchase another compiler before you sell what you produce, then go with it. It is just fine for learning.

quote:
What exactly isn''t being optimized?


Everything but the comments.

quote:
For anyone using the newer compiler...whats ur take???


Personally I would upgrade for the newer standard library and better language support. See if you qualify for the Academic Edition; it is the Professional Edition but at student pricing. And yes, the Academic Edition optimizes.

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quote:
Original post by Evil Bill
...but you''re not allowed to release anything with it.

Wrong. There are no restrictions on what you can do with the output from VS.NET Academic.

Now go use Gamedev''s non-existent forum search feature and dig up all the previous discussions on this topic.



For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can''t readily accept the God formula, the big answers don''t remain stone- written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us -- Charles Bukowski

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Arild, I''m pretty certain MSVS.NET license restrictions prevent you from releasing commercial code compiled with the Academic edition.

I''d check and be certain, but I couldn''t be stuffed

Tom L

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quote:
Original post by krumms
Arild, I''m pretty certain MSVS.NET license restrictions prevent you from releasing commercial code compiled with the Academic edition.

I''d check and be certain, but I couldn''t be stuffed


You''re wrong. And as I mentioned earlier - this has been debated before. Noone has as of yet been able to produce anything remotely convincing that indicates that there are redistribution restrictions on VS.NET Academic, while there has been substantial proof of the opposite.

There is no need to debate this again. Just give up. Accept it.

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Thanks for all the info ppls it really help clear the questions up. After the post I took a look around for pricing on the studio pro non Academic and was able to find it alot cheaper than $1k. Ebay has a ton of the AE's, but quite a few ppls are selling the straight up studio pro for nearly the same price.
I have to agree that I haven't heard anything about AE having any restrictions, its basically the studio pro in a diff box.

Did a little digging and it appears .NET 2003 is in final BETA, with release "soon". MS plans to roll out another ver the years after also(2004).

Anyone have MSDN? Is it worth it for anyone not professionally developing software?

I think I like the idea presented a few posts up...write everything with the older compiler...then buy the newest big dog and recompile.
l8tr

[edited by - DaWookie on December 26, 2002 12:14:01 AM]

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quote:

Anyone have MSDN? Is it worth it for anyone not professionally developing software?



Very necessary. You get it with the compiler package plus I think you might be eligible for free one year msdn subscription. If so you''ll be getting msdn cd in the mail every three months like me.

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quote:
EvilBill: ...but you''re not allowed to release anything with it.

Arild Fines: Wrong. There are no restrictions on what you can do with the output from VS.NET Academic.

krumms: Arild, I''m pretty certain MSVS.NET license restrictions prevent you from releasing commercial code compiled with the Academic edition.


I have seen this same series of replies about, what, twenty times now? And I do not even visit the forums regularly anymore...

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Ah well, sorry. What about MSVC 6.0 Student/Academic (whatever it is) edition? I looked into this about 2 years ago but didn''t bother with it because there was something saying that you cannot comercially release any product developed with this edition of MSVC.
I assumed it would be the same for .NET

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You are thinking of the Introductory Edition, which was often bundled with books and other stuff. It had redistribution restrictions - the Academic Edition did not.



For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can''t readily accept the God formula, the big answers don''t remain stone- written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us -- Charles Bukowski

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